MUD Posted November 25, 2010 Report Share Posted November 25, 2010 OK, you guys have given me enough info to try playing around again this year.... I do have one question though. Jack mention moving your legs out around the "circle". Isn't using cant / lift artificially moving you out around the circle? What does you board do as soon as you get into a carve? It turns into a section of a circle..... Are we shooting for comfort while standing? or while we are in the carve? If you are running a "wide" stance and it is uncomfortable while standing flat should that matter? Get what I am asking? I understand this does not apply for iso-plates since they are pretty much like standing on a flat surface all the time (theoretically). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinterGold Posted November 25, 2010 Report Share Posted November 25, 2010 Of course there are some general guide lines concerning canting and lift. And it is logical that you use canting for lower angles and lift for higher angles and all kinds of mixes in between. BUT I don´t think that one special setup is more comfortable or has a better performance than another one in general. As I understand it, there are several people on this forum who use outward canting on their back foot. If inward canting and outward canting work well, why shouldn´t flat be an option? And about the setup of professionals - it is true that most racers use rather a lot of lift and some also a high canting, but this is also not universal. Benjamin Karl, one of the top technicians in the world, uses only a minimal amount of lift in his setup. I wouldn´t adjust my setup only carpet carving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted November 25, 2010 Report Share Posted November 25, 2010 What he said. Cant... well that's an issue for people with legs which need it. Lifts... I used to ride flat, then I changed my boots a few years back and found I needed to dig out the old wedgies. So in my case the boots I'm using affect what I like to ride with. Currently, well I changed my boots again and at the moment I'm still with the old lifts (1 toe, 3 heel). Not sure if I'll stick with them. By the standards of some here I'd be on mellow angles I suppose - 50 degrees parallel (because I can't be bothered to change them when I switch from powder to piste and because my feet are of sensible size). It's absolutely not about that diagram of a man. If nothing else, my feet are evenly displaced from the centre of mass, and the lifts are 2 degrees different: you can't do that on a circle. That's wrong and misleading. I believe that front toe lift helps you pressure the front toe side edge; the back heel lift makes it a bit easier to bend that leg where it needs to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted November 25, 2010 Report Share Posted November 25, 2010 Are most of you runnning a mix of cant/lift? Or just lift? If you are running just lift with either td2 or 3 are you stock with 3 or 6 degrees? If not, you are inducing cant as well, correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted November 25, 2010 Report Share Posted November 25, 2010 Are most of you runnning a mix of cant/lift? Or just lift?If you are running just lift with either td2 or 3 are you stock with 3 or 6 degrees? If not, you are inducing cant as well, correct? I'm 5'11", 31" inseam. 19.5" stance. 6-degree cants are at 65F and 50R, feet are at 60F and 57-ish rear. So a little bit of outward cant on rear foot and inward cant on front foot. I'm going to try adding more heel lift to my rear binding as I find myself at the forward flex limits of my ankle (and boot) sometimes in bumpy/icy conditions. I'm in the camp that everyone will have different stances that work for them. Just go anywhere public and look at people standing around. Everyone has different angles between their lower legs and the ground; forcing them all to have the same angle is going to make some of them really uncomfortable. As long as your stance feels good for you, go for it. But still experiment to see if there isn't a better way that you haven't tried yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted November 26, 2010 Report Share Posted November 26, 2010 That's wrong and misleading. You know, I've found several of your responses to several people lately to be rude and/or condescending. I do have one question though.Jack mention moving your legs out around the "circle". Isn't using cant / lift artificially moving you out around the circle? What does you board do as soon as you get into a carve? It turns into a section of a circle..... Are we shooting for comfort while standing? or while we are in the carve? If you are running a "wide" stance and it is uncomfortable while standing flat should that matter? Somewhere in between. I don't think your stance should be uncomfortable while standing. We do not carve 100% of the time on the mountain. Even when we are carving, we do not spend all of our time in a carve. The board goes flat between carves. During the transition, how you set up for the next carve is critical. How are you supposed to make swift, precise movements if your mobility and balance is limited? Being able to carve from the ankles up requires you to be at ease while the board is flat. Are most of you runnning a mix of cant/lift? Or just lift? I ride TD3s and TD2s and I use toe lift on the front foot with a little inward cant (62 degree binding angle, 80 degree cant disk angle, 3 degree disk). On the rear foot I use heel lift and some outward cant (60 degree binding angle, 45 degree cant disk angle, 3 degree disk) If you are running just lift with either td2 or 3 are you stock with 3 or 6 degrees? If not, you are inducing cant as well, correct? I think you may be confused about that. TD2 and TD3 allow customizing your blend of cant and/or lift with the 3 or 6 degree disks. See here: http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/TD2_setup.cfm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softbootsurfer Posted November 26, 2010 Report Share Posted November 26, 2010 Good point Jack... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted November 26, 2010 Report Share Posted November 26, 2010 Actually I'm surprised by how little the board appears to be bending in that vid. But even if our boards are flat a small percentage of the time, the times when the board is flat between carves are critical moments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacopodotti Posted November 26, 2010 Report Share Posted November 26, 2010 I run flat and I think that from one side a wider stance help stability , but on the other a narrow stance help the board to bend concentrating the weight more close to the centre of the board. There is a point from which to start and then find your right thing. Vitruvian Man is a good concept but using math whith it will surprise everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.E Posted November 26, 2010 Report Share Posted November 26, 2010 Depends on the board. GS sticks I like heel lift on the back, toe lift on the front and a little canting. Sl type sticks I prefer a little less lift and no canting. Freeride/ powder boards I run flat. All with approx. the same stance width and front foot angle. Rear foot angle changes based on board width. At the end of the day it just takes some experimenting to see what floats your boat. I chuck it all and start from scratch on every new board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted November 27, 2010 Report Share Posted November 27, 2010 You know, I've found several of your responses to several people lately to be rude and/or condescending. My own test for "is this ok to say?" is broadly: "would I say it face-to-face?". Taking my text in context I'm not sure what there is to be upset about, but as you are upset, I'm sorry about that as it wasn't my intention. My intention was to point out that attempting to explain your logic by analogy to that diagram is misleading for the reasons given, although you need to read the text in context. Your conclusion could be correct, but your argument is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian M Posted November 28, 2010 Report Share Posted November 28, 2010 There are lots of ways to ride these funny sliding boards that we all like :) When I rode flat for many years, I found that my front quad was always burning by the end of even short runs. After changing two years ago to bombers which allowed me more options, I spent an entire season experimenting with every stance that I could think of. What felt really good, and I kept coming back to, was 3 degrees of toe and heel lift, and then minor cant (0.5 degrees) just to make each knee happy. The benefits I felt? More balanced muscle work between both legs, and greatly reduced overall fatigue. A wider stance that felt not only more 'stable' front-to-back but also more symmetrical and balanced. A greater range of movement, particularly up/down and rotationally. Every body is different, so spend some time experimenting and find what works for you. Whatever your 'happy place' is binding-wise, (flat included!) I think it would be nice if you can say that you tried everything else and it wasn't as good for you. Happy trails everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban Carving Gooding Posted November 28, 2010 Report Share Posted November 28, 2010 No not flat, its tant simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ursle Posted November 28, 2010 Report Share Posted November 28, 2010 You know, I've found several of your responses to several people lately to be rude and/or condescending. http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=269810&highlight=fanboys#post269810 My favorite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted November 28, 2010 Report Share Posted November 28, 2010 Skating, Surfing, Walking and Boarding... to answer the question What's the point of posting and deleting the same thing over and over? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted November 28, 2010 Report Share Posted November 28, 2010 What's the point of posting and deleting the same thing over and over? I've been deleting his responses. The opinions of anyone who does not ride hardboots are not relevant to hardboot binding setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted November 28, 2010 Report Share Posted November 28, 2010 http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=269810&highlight=fanboys#post269810My favorite. And what is the point of this in this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted November 28, 2010 Report Share Posted November 28, 2010 I've been deleting his responses. The opinions of anyone who does not ride hardboots are not relevant to hardboot binding setup. I have had the same thought. The answer to the post is that your feet are free to move, cant, and lift in all of those sports. Even wakeboarding and softboot snowboarding (two strap bindings anyway) allow loads of foot movement with their binding systems. Hardbooting, not so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted November 28, 2010 Report Share Posted November 28, 2010 There are lots of ways to ride these funny sliding boards that we all like :)When I rode flat for many years, I found that my front quad was always burning by the end of even short runs. After changing two years ago to bombers which allowed me more options, I spent an entire season experimenting with every stance that I could think of. What felt really good, and I kept coming back to, was 3 degrees of toe and heel lift, and then minor cant (0.5 degrees) just to make each knee happy. The benefits I felt? More balanced muscle work between both legs, and greatly reduced overall fatigue. A wider stance that felt not only more 'stable' front-to-back but also more symmetrical and balanced. A greater range of movement, particularly up/down and rotationally. Every body is different, so spend some time experimenting and find what works for you. Whatever your 'happy place' is binding-wise, (flat included!) I think it would be nice if you can say that you tried everything else and it wasn't as good for you. Happy trails everyone! GREAT reply! Thank you! I would also add, maybe it's time to go back and try again (as in my case) if you are riding new bindings, new board, or even new boots. Things change, sometimes it's best to change with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian M Posted November 28, 2010 Report Share Posted November 28, 2010 Thank you MUD, I'm happy you found my post helpful :) Yes, I believe Mr. E suggested trying different settings for new equipment earlier in the thread. Makes sense to me also! Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted November 29, 2010 Report Share Posted November 29, 2010 I've been deleting his responses. The opinions of anyone who does not ride hardboots are not relevant to hardboot binding setup. Ok Sailor. I didn't know that was the case. The answer to the post is that your feet are free to move, cant, and lift in all of those sports. Even wakeboarding and softboot snowboarding (two strap bindings anyway) allow loads of foot movement with their binding systems. Hardbooting, not so much. You are very right! Yet, better foot support could be beneficial to those sports too. Here are some examples. In the photo below, I ride a slalomish course on a flat board. You can see my toes lifting in attempt to maximise pressure on the heel rail: Or even more extreme: Then I built a slalom skate with lots of concave and big rocker/tailkick. Result was feet planted safely in place: I effectivelly have toe/heel lifts and some canting... Also, the majority of slalom riders use similar concept. If I ever go back to soft boots, I'm going to install at least some heel lift on the rear binding. I always ended up riding with more lean in the rear hardback, to compensate for the lack of the heel lift. I would also argue that most of higher end bindings have toe ramps ("gas peddals"), which are actually the toe lift... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted November 29, 2010 Report Share Posted November 29, 2010 Great shots of the concept blueb! The other day in the water Rebecca mentioned that my front foot toes were off the board during an off the top. I replied that happens all the time. During fast backside waves my back foot rocks onto its inside as my knee drives forward and toward the board. There is tons of freedom in those sports for the feet to adjust to your body position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoltan Posted December 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2010 Well...this is embarrassing. :o I was working on my board and realized my front toe is raised, as is my back heel. Oops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted December 13, 2010 Report Share Posted December 13, 2010 Well...this is embarrassing. :oI was working on my board and realized my front toe is raised, as is my back heel. Oops. But you've got guts to admit it! Hats off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Hey all, I know this is a rehash. BUT. I would like to say thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread.. Last night I got to try my new set-up with a wider (21" up from 19.5") stance and some 3 degree plates on my sidewinders. I REALLY liked it! Very comfortable and responsive. My VSR is an X-tight so it is quite the leg burner. I am glad I gave it a go. This thread is a good example of how an open mind and some good discussion can really pay off. I am going to keep on playing to see if I can make it even better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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