Questions on Parallel GS

[Odd Job]

I've been watching videos on youtube GS snowboard races, and have a question.

Are they using cross overs?, and why?

I thought of several reasons for this, but I thought I would let someone knowledgeable answer ;)

[Mtrappy]

I am not sure what a cross over is... can you clarify?

[pow4ever]

Not my words :)

http://www.bomberonline.com//articles/cross_over.cfm

Cross-over is the technique of moving the body up and over the board by extending the knees. If gently executed, this amounts to simply standing up at the end of one carve, and sinking back down into the next. At the top of your extension, your upward momentum takes pressure off the carving edge, and you are free to move your body across the board, and back down into the next carve, returning pressure to the other edge. In this case, you are compressed at the apex of each carve, and extended in the transitions.

When exaggerating cross-over turns, you can maximize that weightless feeling between carves. You can combine this technique with a spring off the tail, and actually catch air between carves. This can be quite exhilarating, especially if timed with a roll or spine in the hill, resulting in some serious distance and hang time. Landing such a jump on edge, already in the next carve is not only fun and impressive, but a good way to hone your balance as well.

[Mtrappy]

In racing we try not to stand up in between turns because the release of the board will launch you out of the course if you are not careful to suck it up.

[Odd Job]

In racing we try not to stand up in between turns because the release of the board will launch you out of the course if you are not careful to suck it up.

Then why do I see them extending their legs between the transitions?

or is this a different way of doing a cross through/ extending then retracting quickly at once as a cross over/cross under mix?

I tend to think of cross through as.. a cross under but the body following the board, or EC style, or keeping legs sort of or all the way extended, and keeping them there until you want to switch edges, then doing it abruptly.

[queequeg]

Then why do I see them extending their legs between the transitions?

or is this a different way of doing a cross through/ extending then retracting quickly at once as a cross over/cross under mix?

I tend to think of cross through as.. a cross under but the body following the board, or EC style, or keeping legs sort of or all the way extended, and keeping them there until you want to switch edges, then doing it abruptly.

You should post some of the videos you are referring to, for clarity.

I'm not a racer but: I saw a very informative video awhile of some racers doing a few drills at a camp; where the instructor had each rider bring the board across the fall line in somewhat of a slide (with the nose pointing somewhat downhill), while riding *somewhat* upright, and then sit into the turn (such that the board started carving downhill), then extending to complete the turn and accellerate across the fall line (slidding back across in the same manner) and repeating the movement on the opposite edge. That was probably the worst description *ever* but I suspect that it may be what you are talking about? Will see if I can dig up that video.

[BlueB]

Thedo Remmelink... It's in this thread:

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=21272

I also thought that racers with driftier styles, like Morrison for example, often stand up to transition and drift...

Good variatey of styles in here:

[queequeg]

Thedo Remmelink... It's in this thread:

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=21272

I also thought that racers with driftier styles, like Morrison for example, often stand up to transition and drift...

Good variatey of styles in here:

Thanks Boris - that's exactly what I was talking about.

[Odd Job]

I get it now!

Thank you!

[boostertwo]

...often has to do with the location of the 'target' (where the apex of the next turn will be).

Ron LeMaster speaks to some of the situations where one might be preferable to the other here:

http://ronlemaster.com/articles/extension-retraction-SR3-07.pdf

(note: captions in Ron's article do NOT describe the images)

<img src="http://i55.tinypic.com/bahig.jpg" border="0" alt="Jeff Patterson, Vail, CO.">

Hiked Vail for a foot o' fresh today. Looking good for opening day Friday!

B-2

[OhD]

Not my words :)

... At the top of your extension, your upward momentum takes pressure off the carving edge, and you are free to move your body across the board, and back down into the next carve, returning pressure to the other edge. ....

So how do you move your body across the board? What are you pushing against? If you're airborne or barely contacting the snow, how do you get your essentially ballistic carcass to travel on any trajectory other than that to which you committed it at launch? Have you steering jets or airfoils? Tethers or tractor beams?

For that matter, unless you have substantial inertial gyros (not the kind on pita) built into your bod or gear, you will have a difficult time changing the rotational inertia you had when you left the ground (and technically, in absence of any torque applied from outside the system, you still can't change your total rotational inertia, only transform it.)

The Newtonian principles of conservation of energy and momentum still apply, even in this shiny new millenium, no matter what it feels like you are doing. Our brains didn't evolve to instinctively understand snowboarding (or compound interest, the combination of alcohol and eye shadow, or many other cool things) so what we perceive ain't necessarily what's really happening.

[OhD]

...That being said - it's equally true that the mind and body can learn to do perfectly beautiful and joyful things with practically no conscious understanding of or application of the physics involved. So if you think you're doing cross-overs, enjoy them!

[patmoore]

Let's pursue this a bit. I'm an advocate of the cross-under whether on board or skis and try to stay as low in the transition as my 64 year old knees will allow (had my fourth knee surgery on June 22 so that's a challenge in and of itself). If anyone has suggestions for helping me shave a few tenths, I'm all ears!

[Marco]

...often has to do with the location of the 'target' (where the apex of the next turn will be).

Ron LeMaster speaks to some of the situations where one might be preferable to the other here:

http://ronlemaster.com/articles/extension-retraction-SR3-07.pdf

(note: captions in Ron's article do NOT describe the images)

<img src="http://i55.tinypic.com/bahig.jpg" border="0" alt="Jeff Patterson, Vail, CO.">

Hiked Vail for a foot o' fresh today. Looking good for opening day Friday!

B-2

There's a better discussion of flexing and extending in skiing than Lemaster's article. Try, instead, these articles by Gurshman at these links:

http://www.youcanski.com/en/coaching/tendencies.htm

http://www.youcanski.com/en/coaching/incline-to-win.htm

There may differences of opinion on what I say next and that's fine. To each his/her own. Christian Hrab, former Canadian coach and WC coordinator generously this explained this me.

WC PGS and PS racers turn by midweighting. It's a way to: 1) Get your CM past the edge of the board, which is how the board turns by bending it while the front and rear edges engage the snow and allow the board to bend. 2) Allow you to transition from one turn to the next.

Weight 50/50 front and back. Try to always maintain this.

In this sequence, hips, knees and ankles, move your hips across the edge of the board to weight the edge. You can do the opposite, ankles, knees and hips, but that takes too much time at speed to get your CM out there so you will will not engage the edge above the fall line and you will be late for gates. Also, ankles first does not work well on steeper terrain.

To control the shape of the turn, pressure the board as it enters the fall line. Too early and you fall downhill, too late and you lose speed and possibly skid.

To midweight into the next turn, downunweight slightly. This releases the edge and also lets centrifugal force carry your body across the board.

You can engage the new edge in one of three ways: 1) Classic midweighting by keeping the board in contact with the snow the entire way. If so, repeat the turn sequence as explained above. 2) Drifting by pulling the board up strongly (or downunweighting strongly), which lightens the board so it drifts across the snow until you position it at the angle you want and then extend to engage the edge. You need real speed for this, otherwise, you downunweight and squat on your boots. 3) Jump turn which needs real speed and an even quicker downunweighting motion than in #2 so you pick the board off the snow. As the centrifugal force carries body over board and board under body in the air (we can debate this forever), you position the board where and at what angle you want to edge when you extend and come down. Not advisable for rutted courses.

Now, I see a lot of talent on this site. Most folks board a lot better than I do. All, or almost all, the examples here are fun to watch. And there are a variety of styles, which I wouldn't deny to anyone to try. Just putting my two cents in. Thanks.

[Beckmann AG]

...move your hips across the edge of the board to weight the edge

Marco, are these Christian's actual words? If so, did he provide any suggestions on how one is to do this? Or was it more of a conceptual suggestion, along the lines of 'visualize your hips moving across the board'?

...I'm an advocate of the cross-under whether on board or skis and try to stay as low in the transition as my 64 year old knees will allow (had my fourth knee surgery on June 22 so that's a challenge in and of itself). If anyone has suggestions for helping me shave a few tenths, I'm all ears!

Rather than thinking in terms of edge change mechanics and body positions, might I suggest the goal of minimal surface disturbance from point A to B?

[Odd Job]

I'm so happy! So much information! :P

[Marco]

Marco, are these Christian's actual words? If so, did he provide any suggestions on how one is to do this? Or was it more of a conceptual suggestion, along the lines of 'visualize your hips moving across the board'?

Hey, Beckman.

He explained this to me a few years ago a couple of different times. This was both theory and practice rolled into one, as far as I could tell. He believed in the individuality of riding and stressed, this was when I was coaching myself, the riders experimenting and growing from that. My advice would be to go out and try it. I also tell riders to try it at home while near a wall. Move hips, knees and ankles and see what happens as you move your CC. From my experience, this becomes a "felt" experience. The big difference between midweighting and turn by moving your ankles first sit that you move your body pretty much as one piece at once. It's compact and efficient.

[Beckmann AG]

I also tell riders to try it at home while near a wall. Move hips, knees and ankles and see what happens as you move your CC.

So If I understand correctly, the idea is to move the CG (CC?), and in doing so the body moves as a unit?

For the indoor exercise, 'what' moves, or propels, the CG? Is this 'mover' similarly employed once you get on the snow, or is it replaced with something else?

[Marco]

So If I understand correctly, the idea is to move the CG (CC?), and in doing so the body moves as a unit?

For the indoor exercise, 'what' moves, or propels, the CG? Is this 'mover' similarly employed once you get on the snow, or is it replaced with something else?

That should be CM (or CG). Forgive my early morning typo.

Yeah, more or less if you do that sequence, the body moves more as a unit. If you begin with the ankles, the body moves more slowly in parts. Also, if you move the hips first, it puts your body and legs in a better, more flexed position.

[patmoore]

I think I'm following it. I believe I do initiate turns with my hips but fail to complete the ankle phase and don't get the board up on edge as much as I should. See example below. Any suggestions?

[Beckmann AG]

Quote:

<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by Beckmann AG

So If I understand correctly, the idea is to move the CG (CC?), and in doing so the body moves as a unit?

For the indoor exercise, 'what' moves, or propels, the CG? Is this 'mover' similarly employed once you get on the snow, or is it replaced with something else?

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

That should be CM (or CG). Forgive my early morning typo.

Yeah, more or less if you do that sequence, the body moves more as a unit. If you begin with the ankles, the body moves more slowly in parts. Also, if you move the hips first, it puts your body and legs in a better, more flexed position.

Some of my best friends are typos...

Ok; clear on your understanding of the concept. Can you elaborate on the second part of the question?

[terekhov]

If you begin with the ankles, the body moves more slowly in parts. Also, if you move the hips first, it puts your body and legs in a better, more flexed position.

agree! after reading your book (yes?:) - I've made exercise from it, which I call "magic stick" (in russian of course). I'll try to elaborate: visualise some virtual stick which goes through both hip joints and prolongs to the side of hips. take this stick by your hands, attached to board. this stick usually must be perpendicular to your stance, i.e. front foot angle. make some sit down-up to internalize this stance a little. make this stick felt, so you can manage to move your hips by virtually PUSHING on that stick. and... let go carve some turns. your ONLY isolated movement when you crossing the board between apexes is to use that stick to cross your butt over the board. be careful! you can make your overdamp coiler rebound like pogo stick, if you make this movements expressfully! ))

I _love_ that control now on grooms. but in the mixed snow "ride from snow up" mantra works better for me.

[BobD]

This sounds a little like the inside ski initiation in skiing. If you are running straight with both skis flat, then you should start the turn by tipping the inside ski into the turn. If you are transitioning, edge to edge; it would slow the transition down, having to wait until both skis are flat before starting the turn. The mechanics of the body crossing over the skis, or skis crossing under the body, dictate the the new outside ski must tip on edge first.

So on a snowboard, in order the start the turn at the ankles, you would have to slow down the transition. The only time I notice myself starting the turn with my ankles is the first turn after getting up speed, and also if I run straight on a flat base between turns. Does that sound right?

[Marco]

I think I'm following it. I believe I do initiate turns with my hips but fail to complete the ankle phase and don't get the board up on edge as much as I should. See example below. Any suggestions?

Sorry for my late response--been a long day.

Pat--it's tough to tell from one still. Better to have a video, even of you freeriding. I've you a PM.

Good responses and good ideas from everyone here. I like the brainstorming and willingness to experiment. Nice exercise and visualization by Terekhov.

Btw, you can practice all this in the summer on a Carveboard or a Carvestik so you have a good feel for things when the snow rolls around.

To answer Beckman, one possible exercise I do is to stand in an open doorway inside where the floor is flat. Get in your stance, either hard or soft, as though you are riding through the doorway. (You stand in the doorway so you can catch yourself from falling on the floor.)

First experiment: start with your ankles by pushing down on your toes. Watch and feel how your body moves to the toeside.

Second experiment: Stand in the same posture and move your hips toward the toeside.

Repeat each doing heelside.

Now, with which initial motion are you going to move your CM and engage your edge the quickest and the most?

Remember that you want to get your body past the edge of the board a lot to start the turn and centrifugal force will hold you up.

[patmoore]

Thanks Marco. I bought your book three years ago but it's at my place in Vermont. I'll be back up there in early December and can review it.

Okay. Here's a short video of me the winter before last. The second half repeats in slow motion. I've been getting some excellent suggestions via email and will stay in touch with anyone has helpful suggestions.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/xC3Ehsub1ec" frameborder="0"></iframe>

Now that I'm semi-healthy again, I'd like to really improve my times this coming season both boarding and skiing. I appreciate the support!