Softboot carving thread

[big mario]

After watching a thread about a softboot carving forum grow to a gozillion posts, I thought " Hey, why doesn't someone just start a thread for softboot carving" ? No one has yet so I thought I would take a little initiative and take a page from Ais's off topic super thread and some of the ride board threads. So here it is. Use it, Ignore it, let it thrive, let it die on the vine, or start you're own.

mario

[newcarver]

What causes one to flip backwards on a toe side carve in softboots? Has happened to me too many times. Even happened once on my new Donek Incline which felt super good in carve mode. That board rails and I was getting very confident, then BAM! :smashfreaHas never happened with hardboots. Its like I have good edge and have board leaned way over and all of a sudden on turn exit I'll start sliding the edge and it catches. End result: get tossed in the air backwards and either land on my lower back or head. I do have fun carvig on softies and can get almost as low as with my alpine gear, but hate risking this type of crash. Seems like it happens most when the snow is kind of inconsistent or slightly tracked up groom.

[dingbat]

Sounds like maybe you're letting your heels drop before bringing your center of mass across the board? Or throwing your center of mass too quickly across the board and not enough toward your direction of travel?

[Greybeard]

Heres one I would like to see explored- I have been snowboarding for years and only ran into some hardboot carvers last month at our local ski hill. They suggested going to carversalmanac for pointers etc. I found this site, found a reference to Gilmour who softboot carves at 45/32. I set my angle to this and found a free carve board and am having a great time learning. I am curious how high an angle people do use in soft boots even tho it is said that you can't.

[piusthedrcarve]

Heres one I would like to see explored- I have been snowboarding for years and only ran into some hardboot carvers last month at our local ski hill. They suggested going to carversalmanac for pointers etc. I found this site, found a reference to Gilmour who softboot carves at 45/32. I set my angle to this and found a free carve board and am having a great time learning. I am curious how high an angle people do use in soft boots even tho it is said that you can't.

I would not recommend to set it more than 45F/40B. If you initiate your turns with nose of board, snow conditions could be a big factor whether how much you want to lean forward. if it is slush/deep softpacked, you may submerge/dive the nose and you could ended up front dive. If you are wearing hardboots, only thing gets break would be the nose. If you are wearing softboots, you ankle goes with it. (happened twice and had to take time off for 2 seasons). Recommending carving skill would be moving your weight front and back constantly.

[Galen]

Heres one I would like to see explored- I have been snowboarding for years and only ran into some hardboot carvers last month at our local ski hill. They suggested going to carversalmanac for pointers etc. I found this site, found a reference to Gilmour who softboot carves at 45/32. I set my angle to this and found a free carve board and am having a great time learning. I am curious how high an angle people do use in soft boots even tho it is said that you can't.

I'd say that's about the max. I was riding similar angles on my K2 Ginsu with 3 straps just before I switched to HB's as it was taking a toll on my "trick" ankle.

[inkaholic]

What causes one to flip backwards on a toe side carve in softboots? Has happened to me too many times. Even happened once on my new Donek Incline which felt super good in carve mode. That board rails and I was getting very confident, then BAM! :smashfreaHas never happened with hardboots. Its like I have good edge and have board leaned way over and all of a sudden on turn exit I'll start sliding the edge and it catches. End result: get tossed in the air backwards and either land on my lower back or head. I do have fun carvig on softies and can get almost as low as with my alpine gear, but hate risking this type of crash. Seems like it happens most when the snow is kind of inconsistent or slightly tracked up groom.

Front foot heavy similar to many of the spin outs on the Olympic BX. MOOOOVE your feet through the turn.

Ink

[kjl]

Its like I have good edge and have board leaned way over and all of a sudden on turn exit I'll start sliding the edge and it catches. End result: get tossed in the air backwards and either land on my lower back or head.

Do you mean you first lose your edge, slipping out of your carved track, and at some point the edge grabs again and you highside downhill?

This could simply be because holding your toe edge in softies is dependent on your calf muscle being able to keep your tippy toes pushed down into the snow, and when the G-force builds up or you hit a bump, your ankle gives and you lose your edge angle.

The fix in this case is to just drive the edge in harder with all the available joints in your body:

1) push with your toes as hard as possible (try to stand on tip toes)

2) bend your knees more (drives the shin into the tongue/laces of the boot, increasing edge angle)

3) shove hip into snow (lean torso away from snow) - does the same thing.

4) don't reach for the snow.

I find in softies moreso than in hardboots that the carve is easier held on the toeside by weighting the back foot, not the front.

[photodad2001]

Heres one I would like to see explored- I have been snowboarding for years and only ran into some hardboot carvers last month at our local ski hill. They suggested going to carversalmanac for pointers etc. I found this site, found a reference to Gilmour who softboot carves at 45/32. I set my angle to this and found a free carve board and am having a great time learning. I am curious how high an angle people do use in soft boots even tho it is said that you can't.

I also would say that would be the max, however, 3 strap bindings help with the lateral support and let you go little further. I've gone up to high 50's but your riding style changes when you go past 45 so I'm not recomending it. I've been experimenting with angles on my Madd 168 because the width is a very unique 24cm. Too narrow for traditional softboot binding stances but too wide for extreme hardboot stances. I've tried angles from 30-51 front and 21-39 rear trying to find out what worked best and I liked the lower end. Gave me more power for turning the board up on edge. This board could handle more than I have been used to and I've come to rest at 39 front / 30 rear. Just enought to eliminate overhang and flat enough to crank into a turn.

[Alaskan Rover]

What causes one to flip backwards on a toe side carve in softboots? Has happened to me too many times. Even happened once on my new Donek Incline which felt super good in carve mode. That board rails and I was getting very confident, then BAM! :smashfreaHas never happened with hardboots. Its like I have good edge and have board leaned way over and all of a sudden on turn exit I'll start sliding the edge and it catches. End result: get tossed in the air backwards and either land on my lower back or head. I do have fun carvig on softies and can get almost as low as with my alpine gear, but hate risking this type of crash. Seems like it happens most when the snow is kind of inconsistent or slightly tracked up groom.

Newcarver: You never mentioned the stance angles you were soft-carving at. I presume you were at fairly high angles. I pretty much agree w/ everyone else here. I often carve at 15/5 if I want to be mixing it up and doing other stuff on the same run...but if I want to carve and only carve all day long (like when it's super-nice hard-packed groomers :)) I usually go with an angle of approx. 40/30. I have tried 55/55 and I didn't really like it too much...especially with 2-strap bindings. I don't know, just felt wishy-washy in my boots, and angle felt weird. I settled with 40/30 as a good general soft-boot carve stance. My favorite soft angle is still 15/5....I don't know...maybe cause my ACL knee surgery...after ACL, you can get 95% of your knee stability back, but I don't think ever 100%...least that's what Eric Heiden says...and those are one of his main surgeries now that he is a sports surgeon.

Anyway, are you sure that your center of mass wasn't being shifted too much, causing you to skid out? Try that lower angle...your legs might be more used to the dynamics of the hardboots, and with softies you are using different muscles. You can still get a decent carve at 40/30....You just have to play w/ your binding stance to find your soft-boot carve sweetspot.

Thems my 2-centavos worth. A centavo isn't worth much anymore...100 times less than a peso...:)

[kekoa]

Heres one I would like to see explored- I have been snowboarding for years and only ran into some hardboot carvers last month at our local ski hill. They suggested going to carversalmanac for pointers etc. I found this site, found a reference to Gilmour who softboot carves at 45/32. I set my angle to this and found a free carve board and am having a great time learning. I am curious how high an angle people do use in soft boots even tho it is said that you can't.

I ride a Donek Axis with two-strap bindings and a pair of soft (but stiff) boots. My angles are 60/51. I haven't really had any problems over the five or so years of doing this. Using stiff boots is pretty important, it took me forgetting to bring my boots and somehow getting a really stiff rental for me to realize it.

I've had hard boots almost as long as I've had the Axis, but I've had various issues with them, and also the soft boot setup works "well enough" that I haven't ridden the hard boots so much, maybe 3 half days in five years. (By well enough I mean that during the 75% of time I spend carving I probably fool most people into thinking I'm riding hard boots unless they look closely. And I enjoy the carve of my setup a lot.)

That said, I'm thinking of giving the hard boots another shot the next time I visit the slopes -- and come to think of it that's probably why I started reading these forums again. :)

[Beckmann AG]

What causes one to flip backwards on a toe side carve in softboots?

If I read correctly and this is a 'loop-out'/'banana peel' situation, the smarty pants answer is that your base of support went back up the hill under your center of mass.

This is often a problem for entry level riders when they are on a board that is too stiff for their weight, they are mounted too far towards the tail, or their bindings are biased too far to the heelside of the board.

Has never happened with hardboots

Most likely because the feedback off the boot cuffs let you know when you are approaching the point of no return, and/or, once you land on the cuffs, you have a bigger handle with which you can haul the board back underneath you.

Cut up snow exacerbates the problem because the board can sink in a bit, 'locking' the edge, and the softer snow allows the board to bend a bit more, which is akin to putting a little more draw on the slingshot.

[slopestar]

push and pull through the turn always works for me. i ride 21f/-3b for all conditions on softies. This sets the back foot straight accross the tail. great for switch carving. drive forward on the front foot through the turn and roll out over the heel, slightly lifting and pulling as you initiate the heelside edge. but what do I know?

[Dr D]

Heres one I would like to see explored- I have been snowboarding for years and only ran into some hardboot carvers last month at our local ski hill. They suggested going to carversalmanac for pointers etc. I found this site, found a reference to Gilmour who softboot carves at 45/32. I set my angle to this and found a free carve board and am having a great time learning. I am curious how high an angle people do use in soft boots even tho it is said that you can't.

60+

[boarderboy]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/19/sports/19snowboard.html

Re: Jack the Moderator's comment 'Somebody's gonna die trying to match Sean (White's) Moves', some weeks back

see above link.

This is my 24th (25th?) year boarding, I think. Most of that time has been spent in hardboots, but my body may now be telling me that some really supportive softies and bindings would be a good, relieving midday change from my AT's.

In any event, one thing I think I've really learned in all this time - "There's no smarter, higher priority than being able to walk away smiling at day's end, ready and able to return and do it again in the morning."

'Going for it!' is, indeed, a rush. Permanent impairment, or death, isn't.

I suspect there are many, many older pro athletes who'd gladly give back the fame and fortune for a lifetime of good knees or a clear-functioning noggin.

Be safe out there!

Mahalo

BB

[John Gilmour]

Heres one I would like to see explored- I have been snowboarding for years and only ran into some hardboot carvers last month at our local ski hill. They suggested going to carversalmanac for pointers etc. I found this site, found a reference to Gilmour who softboot carves at 45/32. I set my angle to this and found a free carve board and am having a great time learning. I am curious how high an angle people do use in soft boots even tho it is said that you can't.

Angles change from binding to binding and also boot last to boot last ... I found 45 to be the highest I could go without killing my toeside or slowing my transition to heelside. Fully rotate your highbacks and also give yourself a lot more forward lean on your rear highback than your front I do the same thing with my hardboots). I ride with lower angles on some boards..but still have never felt the same power as when I ride with higher angles. Riding Duck I feel like Superman under the red sun.

I am glad you are having a good time learning... :)

My main drive in my angles was to be able to hammer low heelside carves... which are usually the weak point of the soft set up.

The flex pattern of the board will also dictate some changes in angles.

I have never been able to angle much more than 35 degrees in the rear in softboots without dramatically weakening my toesides.

On other thing..if you have too much "Gilmour Bias" on your rear foot... you will have trouble making the front of the board carve on toeside... so if it feels like you are driving completely from the rear... try moving your front knee across the board to the toeside edge sooner and close to the snow.... if that doesn't fix it..reduce your Gilmour bias on your rear foot.

Also a symptom of too much "Gilmour Bias" on the rear toe can be difficulty in making the finish of your heelside carves stick. Generally speaking if your rear heel ends up inbound of your heel edge... start checking things.

[kjl]

...also give yourself a lot more forward lean on your rear highback than your front I do the same thing with my hardboots).

+1 on that (for both softboots and hardboots).

My main drive in my angles was to be able to hammer low heelside carves... which are usually the weak point of the soft set up.

Also agree with that (which is why there's so much heel lift/forward lean on the back foot). When you twist your upper body to drive that front knee towards the snow on the heelside turn, you end up tending to lift the back heel (due to the hip twist). Increasing forward lean on the back foot should help combat that and make the heelside turn easier. It doesn't matter that it makes the toeside slightly harder since softbooting toesides are so much easier than the heelsides in the first place (if your back foot is ~30 degrees or less).

Maybe I should up my angles to around where you are, John - last time I experimented moving my bindings around I capped out at 39/21. Probably the front foot from 39 to 45 won't feel too different (and will probably help out the heelside a little) but last time I tried it I lost a lot of toeside power from 21 to 30.

[John Gilmour]

+1 on that (for both softboots and hardboots).

Also agree with that (which is why there's so much heel lift/forward lean on the back foot). When you twist your upper body to drive that front knee towards the snow on the heelside turn, you end up tending to lift the back heel (due to the hip twist). Increasing forward lean on the back foot should help combat that and make the heelside turn easier. It doesn't matter that it makes the toeside slightly harder since softbooting toesides are so much easier than the heelsides in the first place (if your back foot is ~30 degrees or less).

Could not have said that better myself.

Maybe I should up my angles to around where you are, John - last time I experimented moving my bindings around I capped out at 39/21. Probably the front foot from 39 to 45 won't feel too different (and will probably help out the heelside a little) but last time I tried it I lost a lot of toeside power from 21 to 30.

Try putting the weight on your rear foot on the 3rd and 4th toes instead of the big toe (As those are the toes parrallel with hte edge at those angles.) ... errr not quite En Pointe but definitely trying to drive the tent peg in with the 3rd and 4th toes of the rear foot.- Pushing down on the back of your front boot while really heeled over helps ..both to add leverage and to get lower.... note ...this is not standing on "tiptoes" as in pressing down through your toes..but more En Pointe- and no...I do not go to the Ballet-

[ecshredder]

I ride 15/15 to 18/18. Sometimes even 15/18.

I also have the occassional toeside nose folding slam that always plants me on the back of my head. But it is usually the second flip to my feet that really scares me.

[Greybeard]

If I have a greybeard you know I am dating myself-but that has nothing to do with ability and speed of learning. On one of my last days out before the snow turned to slush I was sitting tightening up my bindings when a small female boarder skidded over and said what are you doing with those bindings set like that - 45/30. She pulled off her goggles and revealed a smiling 65+ year old shining face and told me she wants to learn to carve and has wanted to talk to someone who was doing it softboots. One of the good guys at a local board shop fed me different boards to try from a Palmer Carbon Circle to a Supermodel which I got as the best choice for a small ski hill. It was astonishing how different boards performed.............

[Softcarver]

but I ride with between 45 and 50 up front and 5 less in the back. I was at 45 for a while and just upped to 50 last time I went out. I didn't notice any issues and actually felt more comfortable. I do ride Catek's with a mildly stiff boot.

I am half considering demoing a narrower board with some hard boots for next season to check out some higher angles. Maybe then all these people that look down on us softies will finally accept me. LOL

[John Gilmour]

but I ride with between 45 and 50 up front and 5 less in the back. I was at 45 for a while and just upped to 50 last time I went out. I didn't notice any issues and actually felt more comfortable. I do ride Catek's with a mildly stiff boot.

I am half considering demoing a narrower board with some hard boots for next season to check out some higher angles. Maybe then all these people that look down on us softies will finally accept me. LOL

Yes it is a weird breed...softbootcarvers.... or I like to think of it as All terrain carving..I ride both hard and soft boots. but for years prior to boot and binding improvements in flex pattern- thought the softboots were just a waste of time. IMHO it is much harder to dial in your softboot bindings than hardboot bindings..

Of course the softbooters don't think you are core..and neither do the hardbooters (who think you are wasting your time and lift tickets) ... a man without a country.

But ironically... it is the skiers who have more respect... they are amazed you can carve in softboots. The scraping softbooters...for the most part have no idea what you are doing, and want to look like a paper doll on a popsicle stick.

[kjl]

Hey, John - does riding at 45/32 hurt your ability to ride offpiste? iirc when I increased my angles up that high I had issues doing heelside jump turns.

[John Gilmour]

triple post

[Rob Stevens]

Kjl... From your heels to toes, or toes to heels?