PGS Board Reviews by Jack

[nekdut]

It looks like Fin OK'ed Jack's PGS board reviews and published the link with the latest Bomber newsletter:

http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/newhotness.cfm

Awesome work Jack!

[lonbordin]

Jack, really fantastic work. I hope you had fun... sounds like you did!

I do question whether deflection and stiffness are the same measure but completely understand why you wanted to quantify that measure.

Now I wish I had the $,$$$.$$ for a Kessler.

[Jack M]

Thanks guys. They wanted to put it in the newsletter tonight, so you're looking at the raw electons hot off the keyboard. It'll be "Bomberized" on Monday.

It sure was fun.

[CarvingScooby]

Well done, Jack.

I wish CP lend u the FLC and that wud be great comparing these 3 decks:1luvu:: KST, NSR & FLC with similar prog SCR,... paging CP :rolleyes:one FLC for Jack please..

Thanks

RT

[Loc]

Thanks for putting in the time to ride and review, Jack. Now I can spend freely...

[BlueB]

Thanks Jack!

You confirmed couple of things I already knew and few others that I was specullating on.

[Jack M]

Well done, Jack.

I wish CP lend u the FLC and that wud be great comparing these 3 decks:1luvu:: KST, NSR & FLC with similar prog SCR,... paging CP :rolleyes:one FLC for Jack please..

Thanks

RT

yup, the missing FLC is explained in the review. Should be a great board.

[Jack M]

Jack, really fantastic work. I hope you had fun... sounds like you did!

I do question whether deflection and stiffness are the same measure but completely understand why you wanted to quantify that measure.

Now I wish I had the $,$$$.$$ for a Kessler.

Thanks lonbordin, glad you liked it. Think I should inverse the "stiffness" numbers?

[lonbordin]

Jack has uncovered the Kessler secret.... the boards work out!

[lonbordin]

Thanks lonbordin, glad you liked it. Think I should inverse the "stiffness" numbers?

Tough call... I wouldn't as it would probably call for a least a little paragraph on why and who wants to write that.

One thing I did notice on re-reading this AM is while you say, "These boards were extremely lightweight..." you did not provide any weight comparisons.

I'm sure you did weight the boards, right?

Then with measurements of thickness of the board we could go so far as to calculate a comparable density number. Giving us another insight into board construction differences.

Thanks again!

[WinterGold]

This is a very informative article. Shows a lot of insight and intimate knowledge of the subject!

Loads of interesting information!

Thanks a lot, Jack! Very impressive work!

You were talking about the sizes of the raceboards, which naturally focus on the SL and GS sizes for men and women. For many years I have been complaining about this fact. Have you noticed that SG will have a 170 and a 180 for next season? They will have a 199mm and a 203mm waist and a 15,2m and a 19,2m radius. These should be excellent boards for freecarving!!!

[Jack M]

One thing I did notice on re-reading this AM is while you say, "These boards were extremely lightweight..."

There I was talking about the original gen-1 Prior metal-topped boards. They were really light.

you did not provide any weight comparisons.

I'm sure you did weight the boards, right?

Nope. I don't own a precise enough scale, and I wasn't going to bring 5 185's into the supermarket. Would have been nice, but oh well.

[Jack M]

This is a very informative article. Shows a lot of insight and intimate knowledge of the subject!

Loads of interesting information!

Thanks a lot, Jack! Very impressive work!

Thanks very much WG, I've been enjoying your reviews as well!

You were talking about the sizes of the raceboards, which naturally focus on the SL and GS sizes for men and women. For many years I have been complaining about this fact. Have you noticed that SG will have a 170 and a 180 for next season? They will have a 199mm and a 203mm waist and a 15,2m and a 19,2m radius. These should be excellent boards for freecarving!!!

Oh man. That 170 SG should be a freecarver's dream.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Dual radius?

I had been under the impression that Coiler/Kessler/etc. had more of a tri-radius sidecut.

Great stuff. This might be the only semi-comprehensive alpine board review available. Would have liked somewhat more of a "ranking system" apart from the Kessler but I imagine that might've been more hassle than it's worth. ;)

And also: curious if you had thought about adding an SG to the mix? Those boards have been WC winners for a couple years now; I haven't had the chance to ride one myself but I've heard that they do have a somewhat different feel than the Kesslers....

greg

[Jack M]

Dual radius?

I had been under the impression that Coiler/Kessler/etc. had more of a tri-radius sidecut.

As far as I know, these race machines are basically dual radius, or variably increasing radius, which can be approximated by a dual radius. You may be thinking of the Coiler VSR which is tri-radius. NSR = dual.

Great stuff. This might be the only semi-comprehensive alpine board review available. Would have liked somewhat more of a "ranking system" apart from the Kessler but I imagine that might've been more hassle than it's worth. ;)

Thanks. Ranking them would be far too subjective and dependent on individual needs. There is something here for every advanced/expert carver.

And also: curious if you had thought about adding an SG to the mix? Those boards have been WC winners for a couple years now; I haven't had the chance to ride one myself but I've heard that they do have a somewhat different feel than the Kesslers....

Primarily I wanted to see how the North American manufacturers stacked up against *a* World Cup board. I would have gladly included an SG, but doing an across-the-board review wasn't really the point. Then I'd have to get into Black Pearl, Oxess, Virus, and everything else. The Kessler was the WC representative here. Subtle differences aside, I'll assume SGs and Kesslers are effectively equivalent given their record in WC.

Fin actually met Sigi at an FIS race in Colorado and told him about the review. He was glad to hear about it and wanted to send a board, but he simply didn't have any he could sacrifice.

[lonbordin]

So just for comparison purposes I whipped out some dowels and my 178 BS Liberation (2005/2006?). A board that several riders testefied to me as very stiff.

I followed the Michaud measuring procedure (pat. pend.).

The numbers:

Camber 21mm

Overall Stiffness 19mm

which is interesting to me... not as "stiff" as I would have guessed.

Obviously the board has had to suffer under my weight for ~30 sessions this season but was ridden very little before that...

I'd like to get a few more numbers... surely others out there have wooden dowels, a ruler, a 35 dumbbell (I use it when I'm feeling wimpy ) and an interesting snowboard.

Post your numbers!

[Galen]

Gold star, Jack. I learned a bunch and it was a GREAT read!

[skategoat]

Nice work Jack. An article like that takes a lot of work.

One correction though. It's not "Joe Public." It's "Joe the Plumber."

[Maciek]

Nice review. I have re-learned some of long forgotten physics of carving and how it feels... thank to your article. As usually, Jack :) Great job!

Is there any way to get some review of Sigi Grabner (SG) boards? Are they deriviatives of Kessler?

They seem to be the similar pricing as Kessler. I wonder what're they worth.

[dave29]

Jack great write up. You made clear many unknowns for me. Thanks for the time and effort.

P.S. I must say the FLC would have really been sweet considering it's in the running as my new purchase next season.

[Michael Pukas]

It's about time!!! :)

Seriously though, thanks for the in depth review Jack. That took a lot of time to investigate and write - and it sounds like you had a blast doing it!

I own a used Kessler 185 PGS - which has been my go-to, and only board, since late last spring. Since the SES, I've had a chance to ride all of the boards you reviewed. They are all fantastic boards, and each have their own personalities. However, I find the Kessler is a different beast. It certainly does set the bar for what a carving board can do.

One of the many amazing things I notice about this board is that when you initiate a turn, it goes faster. Much faster! Most boards you turn and can check your speed - this thing goes like you just hit the ON switch for the super charger on the V8 Interceptor. It's uncanny. The rockered nose and tail make it very forgiving and versatile. Variable snow conditions do not upset the board, and if you need to scrub speed, it's easy to slarve the tail around.

Saying that, I have issues with it. First off, it scares the s**t out me, and I don't always ride it confidently. When I do, it rewards. And then some. It doesn't like to be ridden lackadaisically. I blow out heel side turns constantly, especially on steep stuff, and softer snow - and that's from me not looking into the run enough and having my back hand behind me. I've been saying lately that it doesn't have to be ridden differently than other snowboards, just better. It's certainly making me a better rider.

When I get on another board, such as the Prior - and I've ridden that exact board you reviewed - or a Coiler Monster, I feel so much more, erm, safer. Turns and speed are more predictable. I hardly ever blow out a heel side turn, even when I'm flailing in the back seat, texting my pals, drinking a chai latte.

I'm not sure the Kessler is the best free-carving board. I have a hard time saying that, as I love the thing and really, really want to be able to rail well on it. Simply because when I'm on, on it, it's like nothing else! It's a race board, and racers do slightly different things than we do. If you want a board to challenge your skills and take your riding to the next level, a true PGS board like this will do it. If you want a short turning, easy riding board you can take anywhere, through anything, you may want to try one before you buy and compare to other options. These things are serious.

Thanks again Jack! Cheers!

PS - Ice, you really need to ride one of these things!

[Chris Houghton]

lonbordin - the flex numbers don't mean a lot. It's the torsional stiffness that determines how the board feels to the rider. I must have measured over 60 boards on the old BOBSI system (do a search, there's lots of history) and finally gave up because the numbers didn't really mean anything as far as how the board will ride. Longitudinal stiffness is something that the rider rarely experiences. Board width, sidecut, torsional stiffness and camber have more of an effect. Just my experience.

[Jack M]

Jack great write up. You made clear many unknowns for me. Thanks for the time and effort.

P.S. I must say the FLC would have really been sweet considering it's in the running as my new purchase next season.

Thanks Dave. If you were lusting for an FLC, I would say you can buy with confidence. I felt I was able to discern between the construction and the shape of the WCRM and what was doing what. Radial sidecut aside, I felt the board was really well put together and felt like a nice balance of lively and damp.

Seriously though, thanks for the in depth review Jack. That took a lot of time to investigate and write - and it sounds like you had a blast doing it!

I did, thanks. :D

lonbordin - the flex numbers don't mean a lot. It's the torsional stiffness that determines how the board feels to the rider. ... Longitudinal stiffness is something that the rider rarely experiences.

Riding all 5 boards back to back, I can tell you that the lengthwise flex differences played very a significant role in how each board rode and felt to me. Stepping off of one board and onto another was dramatic.

[John Gilmour]

It's about time!!! :)

Seriously though, thanks for the in depth review Jack. That took a lot of time to investigate and write - and it sounds like you had a blast doing it!

I own a used Kessler 185 PGS - which has been my go-to, and only board, since late last spring. Since the SES, I've had a chance to ride all of the boards you reviewed. They are all fantastic boards, and each have their own personalities. However, I find the Kessler is a different beast. It certainly does set the bar for what a carving board can do.

One of the many amazing things I notice about this board is that when you initiate a turn, it goes faster. Much faster! Most boards you turn and can check your speed - this thing goes like you just hit the ON switch for the super charger on the V8 Interceptor. It's uncanny. The rockered nose and tail make it very forgiving and versatile. Variable snow conditions do not upset the board, and if you need to scrub speed, it's easy to slarve the tail around.

Saying that, I have issues with it. First off, it scares the s**t out me, and I don't always ride it confidently. When I do, it rewards. And then some. It doesn't like to be ridden lackadaisically. I blow out heel side turns constantly, especially on steep stuff, and softer snow - and that's from me not looking into the run enough and having my back hand behind me. I've been saying lately that it doesn't have to be ridden differently than other snowboards, just better. It's certainly making me a better rider.

When I get on another board, such as the Prior - and I've ridden that exact board you reviewed - or a Coiler Monster, I feel so much more, erm, safer. Turns and speed are more predictable. I hardly ever blow out a heel side turn, even when I'm flailing in the back seat, texting my pals, drinking a chai latte.

I'm not sure the Kessler is the best free-carving board. I have a hard time saying that, as I love the thing and really, really want to be able to rail well on it. Simply because when I'm on, on it, it's like nothing else! It's a race board, and racers do slightly different things than we do. If you want a board to challenge your skills and take your riding to the next level, a true PGS board like this will do it. If you want a short turning, easy riding board you can take anywhere, through anything, you may want to try one before you buy and compare to other options. These things are serious.

Thanks again Jack! Cheers!

PS - Ice, you really need to ride one of these things!

I also agree that for certain turn radii and lesser edge angle...the Kessler just leaps/squirts forward. If you really dump the board on edge... then it behaves more like a regular board plowing the nose and bending into a tighter turn radius.

I also feel an occasional unexpected heel-side blow out- typically in softer snow- or softer snow on top of firm snow.....and I wonder if moving back an extra insert pack on the rear would fix that. I am not used to having to monitor the heelside as much as I do (It seems I can twist the last few inches of the tail) . All being said... there is a lot to this 185cm PGS and it is not for tired legs.. Slarving -it takes some getting used to as well.

In terms of upping your riding level... this board will not cradle you- and if running it flat at speed on flats you should monitor it.

I do feel this is a racing machine- and certain compromises are made with racing machines which are not always in favor for the recreational freecarver.

For instance... in skateboard racing... most of the time it is advantageous to run the longest wheelbase you can possibly stuff through a course. That means giving up nimbleness and perhaps even some degree of margin for error in exchange for a longer wheelbase. So you are sacrificing some parameters of ride-ability for speed/time reduction at the end of the course. You might even choose unstable truck geometries to run a longer wheelbase. But if you are riding in traffic... you would not want a skateboard that made these trade offs. You'd want stability, predictability, and grip.

While I do enjoy riding my PGS..and will continue to ride it for a bit longer I think I will eventually sell it and get a slightly shorter deck. This machine has gobs of edge hold.. but realistically..personally I do not need edge hold that allows me to carve through Icy deeply rutted out courses with a Plate system. If the hill was that rutted...I'd wait for another day to ride. I live in Aspen after all.

Yet, If I'm racing in 2010...I'd want to be on a Kessler....after all... that's (And SG) what is winning currently, and it would be an unnecessary risk to ride anything else that wasn't regularly showing up on the Podium. That's just rational.

I don't require more than about 137-157 cm of effective edge to ride the way I like. YMMV and it does take some years of riding to NOT need a lot of effective edge. I feel too much edge/swingweight can get in the way... I also believe you can only go as fast as you can recover from a mistake or slow down at speed...and outside of a race course...having a bit too much board can be a liability. If I was 6'3" the 185cm Kessler would feel normal for me. As it is now it's 3" over my head.

You can get on a PGS Kessler and without even trying hard- even in a rutted course ...nail a Platinum medal in the NASTAR... it makes it pretty easy for the decade experienced weekend warrior or for the night-race leaguer ... ie. a person that does not have 200+ days on the snow to get the same race results on a lesser deck.

That KST sidecut is really fun.... to me it feels like the middle of the deck has less sidecut.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Riding all 5 boards back to back, I can tell you that the lengthwise flex differences played very a significant role in how each board rode and felt to me. Stepping off of one board and onto another was dramatic.

How do you know it was lengthwise flex and not torsional flex differences or a myriad of other things? You have your riding dialed so well you can say "yep, it was [insert specific board characteristic] here that made that turn work"? I thought it was a kind of alchemy of things that made Kesslers, well, Kesslers.