Gear Picks for Hardpack & Ice

[AK in PA]

Just curious as to which boards/bindings/boots are (or would be) your top picks for aggressive freecarving on "eastern packed powder"...aka, hardpack and ice? Also, do boards that hold an edge well with minimal chatter on ice tend to feel sluggish when you want snappy edge changes in good conditions?

I'm 5'6" / 175-180# and just bought a like-new 00/01 Oxygen Proton GS 178. (19.5 cm waist, 14 m sidecut). I have new TD2 step-ins (w/ soft rings) and UPZ Superlight boots on order to go with the board. (This setup will replace my early 90's Burton PJ 163 with Burton plates, and oversized Blax boots.) How do you think the Oxygen/TD2/UPZ combo will fair on hardpack/ice in comparison to your top picks? Can I expect a huge performance difference over my current PJ setup?

...Anxious to ride in PA :)

[AK in PA]

Guess I should add, what physical characteristics "make" a board/binging/boots most suited for hard conditions? Stiffness, flex pattern, sidecut?

[Mike T]

So far the best thing I've tried on ice by far is a Coiler. PR 184 to be exact w/ Superboard construction. If felt like riding a snowboard with a suspension. It's not as snappy as say a Donek but I found it plenty of fun in good conditions, and I never once had it throw me over the handlebars like some of the more lively boards. I was still able to catch a little air on edge changes if I tried.

I am awaiting a Madd 170, based on the testimony of others that it is second to none on ice. I'll let you know after I've ridden it!

IMHO the worst thing you can have on ice is a board that is too stiff, and specifically, too stiff between the bindings. You want to be able to bend the board without going at blinding speed.

[Guest rick ferguson]

You east coast tech guy's suck, Get over all the tech crap and ride hard, all those rookies that are looking for a perfect combo without paying their dues, well, Ride and learn, you can ride a sheet of plywood , if the talent is there, dont let the forums tell you what you should or should'nt ride, half of them are tech kooks anyway's!

[ARCrider]

hey rick

have you ever ridden the east coast or are you just trying to raise ire?

talent goes a long way on our eastern firm but some boards just work better than others. even with my limited experience I've found my coilers hold a better edge than any other board I've tried. haven't tried a madd yet though and I'm not interested in riding plywood.

I will be out again this winter 7days a week on my own talent improvement project.

[bobdea]

Originally posted by rick ferguson

You east coast tech guy's suck, Get over all the tech crap and ride hard, all those rookies that are looking for a perfect combo without paying their dues, well, Ride and learn, you can ride a sheet of plywood , if the talent is there, dont let the forums tell you what you should or should'nt ride, half of them are tech kooks anyway's!

YES, we are tech kooks but most of us have put in the time to know what works

the thing is that I have spent allot of money on things that I really wish I was better informed about

some boards are better than others(for a given purpose) that cant be argued

For me in icy conditions the prefered deck is a somewhat short board that is damp with a tight sidecut

SL decks work well for that

as far as the best edge hold my coiler is insane but at 190 cm its allot of work when conditions are nasty and if its a hard surface I like to slow down a bit too

the volkl RT 168 was pretty fun for that type of conditions

A guy I used to ride with had a small Sims Burner I think it was a 167 he swore that board was the best on ice

[Erik J]

AK, It sounds like you are gonna have a great season on your setup. Like Rick said - ride hard and practice, you''ll make it work. Unlike what Rick has shared, advice from people that ride in similar conditions may have some more value to you than just "ride hard". My advice would be, watch some online movies and visualize their form. Try out different techniquesthat you see. Form on ice has helped me out the most over the years. That's just my opinion though.

As far as boards go though, I spent a day on the Madd 158 at ECES last year (thank you CMC and Shaggy for the loaner) and I have to say, that was hands down the sickest egde hold I've ever gotten out of a board on ice. I went out of my way to find the icy spots and just railed right through them. If you ever get a chance, I highly recommend it. I'm coming up on season #17 of alpine riding - born and raised on southern NY ice - I've seen my share of bulletproof-ice. (I swear you could ricochet a bullet down the halfpipes here). That board rips. I'd have to agree that the "softer in the middle" boards work well on ice.

Hey Rick - your advice is don't listen to the "tech weinies" on the board here? Why should AK listen to your advice? AK asked a question. Some people took the time out to give their PERSONAL preferences. Chill. Obviously there's no substitute for time on the hill, but I've personally gotten a LOT out of the articles and forum. Thank you Jack and all the others.

[jtslalom]

Ak,

As Rick Ferguson kind of said, you probably should ride any equipment you now own and Demo ANY boards you can find. This is my 17 th year riding and I've carved ice on my old soft Kemper Rampage (1989) up to my Volkl Renn Tiger. Every board can be adapted to ride ice. Some adapt better than others.

[AK in PA]

Sounds good, thanks guys. I've been carving up ice for over a decade on the PJ, (and beyond that on freeride boards) but I can only push the thing so far. Riding on mixed conditions (half decent snow with icy spots) is a bear. If I'm in the middle of slamming a hard carve on good snow and don't ease up for the ice, the ride gets pretty wild. Given the worn out nature of my stuff and the advancements in carving equipment design, I finally conceded that it was time for an upgrade. :)

I was originally interested in a Donek or Coiler, but springing for a "brand new" board on top of new boots and bindings would have been too much at once. Depending on what I think of the Oxygen, I may or may not go for a new board next year. Sounds like Madd makes something worthy of consideration, too. For now, I'm really excited to have something I can lay over a little more without the edge flying out or rattling my teeth.

Back to what "makes" a good board/binding/boots for the firm stuff.....length, radius, boot/binding stiffness, etc..?

[CarvCanada]

For a board... Dampness is especially important. Other than that, edge angle can make a really big difference... if you really do a lot of riding in southeast conditions, going for a side bevel of a few degrees is a good idea. Also, having a board with no taper at all is good for edge hold on ice.

[Jack M]

I used to think that longer boards (which usually have longer sidecuts) were better on ice, simply because they have more edge to hold you.

I think this is true up to a point. Beyond a certain degree of "iciness", I now think a shorter sidecut (and therefore usually a shorter board) will do better on very hard surfaces. I re-evaluated my position after seeing people like Paul Kobbe on his Volkl 168, Erik J on the Madd 158, and some of the other rippers making great carves using shorter boards on the uncommonly firm conditions at this past ECES, while I was having a frustrating time on my 185. I also saw the light when I demo'd a 170.

I think shorter sidecuts work better for freecarving on ice because they allow you to carve nice turns at slower speeds. You can get your turn done in a relatively smaller space. You spend less time pointed down the fall-line, and you can get your carve around without reaching mach speeds.

A longer sidecut requires more speed to make the same size carve as a shorter sidecut. This means more centripetal force is required from the snow surface to support the carve. Your board may not be able to penetrate the ice deeply enough to get enough traction for a faster, harder carve.

It is true that if your goal is top speed and not necessarily carving, as in racing, a longer board will be better on ice simply because there is more edge to generate grip. However for freecarving on ice, consider adding something shorter to your quiver and save the longboards for the corduroy!

-Jack

[C5 Golfer]

With you weight I'd try to find a 173 Volkl Renn Tiger. It has a bit tighter radius than the Proton you mention and a joy to ride. Or try the 168 Volkl Renn Tiger-- great rides.

[Mike T]

Originally posted by Kent

I'd say that proportionally longer sidecuts on shorter boards is the key on hardpack and ice! The MADD 170 would be a prime example. The newer 180 PGS boards would be another.

i.e. - Less sidecut DEPTH

K

Wait a sec - I thought the sidecut on the Madd 170 was 10.5m? Seems like that's a pretty tight sidecut for a 170 to me.

No matter, I can't wait to get mine and ride it. Getting on my first Coiler was a revelation in terms of riding on ice. I wonder if this will be even better.

[Jack M]

Originally posted by Kent

I'm not sure you've gone full circle though. I'd say that proportionally longer sidecuts on shorter boards is the key on hardpack and ice! The MADD 170 would be a prime example. The newer 180 PGS boards would be another.

i.e. - Less sidecut DEPTH

K

I am a fan and soon to be owner of the Madd 170, but I would not call that a longer sidecut by any stretch. I suppose you could say it's longer compared to a Burton Triumph 173, which is their longest board with a sidecut of 8.9m (which I think is a pretty silly sidecut for any 170+ board!)

But when it's buff and you can haul ass without a care, nothing beats a nice 185 with a big 15-16m radius!

[Guest boogieman]

i like hoocky boards on any condition

and as for riding on ice if you ride a board with a smaller sidecut radius you can go slowwer to make carves compared to a gs board so if you go down you dont go down (crash) as fast as you would on a gs board so its a little safer to

and gs boards normally are stiffer then sl boards so you need to go fast to make em bend so that takes away the advantage of having more surface in contact with the ice, snow becouse you just cant go as fast on ice then you can on normal snow becouse you dont cut in deep enough.

And i personally just dont have the balls to carve on ice at warp speed anyway i jump out of planes no problem but i dont do that i made a uber crash a fuw years aggo on ice and i couldnt walk for 3 days so that calmed me down a little

[C5 Golfer]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud

But when it's buff and you can haul ass without a care, nothing beats a nice 185 with a big 15-16m radius!

To me that sounds like driving an 18 Wheeler with sport suspension down a curvy mountain road and no brakes.:D

[Jack M]

Originally posted by C5 Golfer

To me that sounds like driving an 18 Wheeler with sport suspension down a curvy mountain road and no brakes.:D

In your terms, 170 = Lotus Elise. 185 = Corvette!!

[C5 Golfer]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud

In your terms, 170 = Lotus Elise. 185 = Corvette!!

Hmmm. interesting comparison Jack. Maybe my skill or nerve set for long boards with large radius is not where it should be to understand or agree/disagree. I have been on a 185 but with a 14m radius and that was about the limit for me ( Prior WCR). I like to be somewhere around the 13m which is safe and sane for an old fart like me. :)

[Derf]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud

In your terms, 170 = Lotus Elise. 185 = Corvette!!

I wonder what 155-160 board are like? A Mini Cooper S maybe?

And let us not forget Mellow Yellow's old ride, RIP yellow Mini Cooper (S?), hoping it's with someone who will take care of it...

[Guest rick ferguson]

I bought a o-sin 4807 with a 25.2 waist and put it thru the rigor's of a true alpine stick and it carved just as tight as any stick I own, and I own a 167 burton fac. prime , 167 santa cruz race, 178 oxy proton, 178 burton factory prime, 186 f2 speedster. I think I have a quiver that cover's the gap's, so going from a 18.5 waist to a 25.2 , I think I know what I'm yacking about! Adaptation is key, not the board , binding, boot combo!!! I've seen guy's on vintage 80's gear ripping in all conditions over all the high priced tech crap. If there was one great set -up and we all rode it , there would STILL be those that pull so far away from the crowd. As a surfboard shaper and designer, I deal with this mentallity all the time, It's got to be the boards fault! Sure if that makes you feel good! Good intentions does'nt mean great results! I'm sorry If I ripped too hard on ya to bring FIN in to warn me of my post's. I did'nt realize you all are that sensitive. Sorry if I made you tear up and run for cover. Look back at the post's and you will see , how

so many are reaching out for the gospel of carving advise, yet can't make up their minds on their own. I have viewed this site for over 3 year's now and people like "LONERIDER" who has about a year riding on a alpine set-up has over 345 post's, AND that's just on this site, NOT TO INCLUDE FREECARVE.COM OR TAHOECARVERS.COM. How can you have that much imput in that short of time and spout about park riding and soft booting?Too many yacker's without doing the time to try out the sh-t they have already.. Leg cant , bow leg, stance width, cant degree, spacer's , arm placement, boot adjustment, way too much info! I learned on the fly and found what works without going nuts!!! I don't think that the surfing crowd is any different from the carver's, with that said, 80% of you don't know jack and should just learn to keep things simple and save your coin till you can rail strong on anything under your feet, then and only then can you benifit from the advise of other rider's. Explane then how my 178, 25.2 waist rails just as good as my race 167 with a 18.5 ? Sometime's it just take's a little more muscle!!!! Get it? got it? -good!!!~ by the way 29 post's in 3 year's vs. 345 in one year, think about who want's the senior member label!!!:) :) :) P.s. Anyone see warren miller's-"steeper and deeper" movie with shannon melhouse riding powder on a carving board? amazing what a willing mind can do!!!!!!

[C5 Golfer]

Originally posted by rick ferguson

I waist to a 25.2 , I think I know what I'm yacking about! Adaptation is key, not the board , binding, boot combo!!! I've seen guy's on vintage 80's gear ripping in all conditions over all :) :)

Ya you are right Rick.. Adaption the key to almost any situation. Take golf.. I still play persimmons fairway woods - a design older than most on this forum - and I am upset if I do not break 80 on the golf course. A guy or gal with 80's gear can still ride , play drive, enjoy, have fun or be miserable as much as the guy with the latest tech stuff. Right it out man and enjoy - it is all good!:D

Let me buy you a beer cuz I can turn my 25.2 waist width Arbor Woodie Munoz model tighter than I need too or care too.

[Guest rick ferguson]

you are a man of great wisdom, you know what I'm talking about and thank you for sharing it publicly! I just wish more could be that honest with themself's. Have a great winter and I too enjoy a good game of golf. Still playing with club's bought at goodwill for $2.00 ea. and having the time of my life!

[Hugh]

Whoa there Rickster, careful about raising your post count. Consider yourself warned as you approach 30.

Being a senior isn't all that it is cracked up to be.

---Hugh

Tons of work to get done in the next two months , then it's playtime on the snow :D

[Tommy D]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud

I think this is true up to a point. Beyond a certain degree of "iciness", I now think a shorter sidecut (and therefore usually a shorter board) will do better on very hard surfaces. I re-evaluated my position after seeing people like Paul Kobbe on his Volkl 168, Erik J on the Madd 158, and some of the other rippers making great carves using shorter boards on the uncommonly firm conditions at this past ECES, while I was having a frustrating time on my 185. I also saw the light when I demo'd a 170.

I think shorter sidecuts work better for freecarving on ice because they allow you to carve nice turns at slower speeds. You can get your turn done in a relatively smaller space. You spend less time pointed down the fall-line, and you can get your carve around without reaching mach speeds.

This got me thinking about snow tires. Generally, it is better to go with a snow tire narrower in width than a summer, or all-season tire. The narrow contact patch not only cuts through soft snow and slush better, but also the vehicles weight is concentrated over a narrower, and longer area. This helps with grip for braking and accelleration, though not necessarilly cornering.

Here's where I'm going: a longer board with a longer edge distributes the rider weight over a large area, relative to a shorter board with a shoter edge. I have nothing to back this up with, but I would assume having the same weight over a shorter edge results in better edge hold on ice. I am not taking into account sidecut here, but sidecut would 'fine tune' how much edge hold a board would have on ice. I do not feel that the overall velocity of the rider is an issue here.

Perhaps the length of a hokey skate versus a speed skate is a good analogy here? Hmmm...

Fire away!

[Jack M]

I've often thought about that. It is true that a shorter board will have a higher weight per centimeter of edge, and therefore will cut deeper. However I think not deeply enough, and that the benefit of more edge on the snow outweighs this. Hence, speedskates are longer than hockey skates. Those short-track guys (how rad is that event by the way?!?) corner way harder than hockey players.

Think of it this way - as you carve, you are asking the snow to support your carve. Each centimeter of snow can only support so much. The more centimeters you bring to the party, the more support you get.