pebu Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 completely disagree. I can think of many riders here who make it look effortless. Paul K, Eric J, GeoffV, ~tb, Arcrider, the list goes on. Effortless, yes, but it's almost like they're levitating. When the non-carver sees it they wonder how it can be possible to hover over the ground like that, much less do it without even breathing hard. I guess I'm trying to say that effort and possibility are on two different scales. By the way I'm not very good with my words. I'm an engineer, what can you expect?:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 completely disagree. I can think of many riders here who make it look effortless. Paul K, Eric J, GeoffV, ~tb, Arcrider, the list goes on. I heard that PaulK was becoming a professional XC skier - does he even snowboard anymore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailertrash Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 You put a hand down to feel where the snow is and then something happens and you loose pressure on the edge of the board and now your hand is holding you up. If your hand wasn't there the board would probably have hooked up again. I heard to think of the snow as an electric fence. I think that person never touched an electric fence. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARCrider Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 don't try to touch the snow, let the snow come to you. then decide if you want to touch it. sooner or later touching it will hurt you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~tb Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 +1 on what Jack and Arcrider have been saying . . but with some additional emphasis. I went through a phase in my 2nd or 3rd year of riding where I was finally getting close enough to touch the snow. . . . and I wouldnt get off of it. It actually became a bad habit and a cruch that really slowed down my progress (there are several BAD videos of me riding during this time period . . . sighhh. . . .baaaad hands down. . . a$$ up. . . not my prodest time). I acutally had to put some drills in my routine to break the habit. Im now a fan of "as close to the snow as possible, with the best possible form, and without touching." Trailertrash is pretty spot on with the thinking of the snow as an electric fence. . . get as close as you can . . . but don't touch it. The drill that I added to my routine is a run every once in a while with no gloves on. Still carve as hard as you can, and as close as you can, but you really wont want to touch. I actually went as far as to switch to riding in gloves that are as thin as possible to discourage myself from touching down. Great question and great topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Prokopiw Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 on some runs at Lookout.There were death cookies and more ridges than usual in flat light on the top half.I've discovered that the payment for a dragging hand while on the 210 is a bit more severe than with my other boards.It rides solidly enough to encourage me to push hard without touching or dragging. On the otherhand, pun intended, it is a lot of fun to touch or drag in certain situations.But flat light makes it hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinpa Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 I look at it this way..... hands are "feelers"... I keep them where I can see them and use them as another way to access the environment around me. I do not try to reach for the ground, but I like the person who said "let the ground come to you!" One time I was on a little steeper pitch that I knew flattened out shortly after and was letting it go a little more than normal. I think I did scare myself a bit though when the ground happened to reach up and make contact with my feeler!!!! YIKES!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 I always have one of my "feelers" in the snow. Poles give me lots of slope angle feed back during the carve and allow me to make subtle upper body corrections midcarve as well as keeping my hands above the snow were those annoying groomer seam ridges won't rip my arm off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caspercarver Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 i have been carving for almost twenty years with no injury. last year i injured both shoulders while laying out a turn. several thousand dollars of doctor and phy. therapy and i still have shoulder issues. you have to decide if it's worth the risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 i have been carving for almost twenty years with no injury. last year i injured both shoulders while laying out a turn. several thousand dollars of doctor and phy. therapy and i still have shoulder issues. you have to decide if it's worth the risk. Amen brother! Most of the (few) injuries I have suffered while carving have been freak accidents, but the shoulder injury(ies) I suffered earlier this season would absolutely not have happened to me if I had not been in in the habit of letting my hand touch the snow. I dislocated my left shoulder twice(!!) this season because I was in the habit of allowing my inside hand to drag on the snow. The first time it happened I was carving in softer snow and on a low toeside and my elbow/forearm whacked into a lump of soft snow, causing them to whip back behind me fast and hard, dislocating my shoulder - there was no pressure on my hand when this happened it was just floating on the surface. I had to have a doctor reset the shoulder at the mountain clinic because it had been out of socket for about 40 minutes before we got to the doc - that cost me $900. The second time it happened I was on a low toeside (again) and lost my edging, while my hand had been just skimming the surface. As I felt my edge lose pressure I pushed out with the already weakened arm and ... pop goes the weasel ... it was out before I even hit the ground. This time I popped it back in myself successfully within a few minutes of popping it out. (Resetting your own shoulder is pretty easy to do if your dislocation is anterior ... and if you are an arm dragger learning how is a good idea--because the longer your shoulder is out, the more damage it will sustain). I haven't popped the arm out since then (and I haven't stopped riding all season) because I have modified my technique: A: keep my friggin hands away from the snow. B: angulate as much as humanly possible, so that if I crash, my hip hits first. In a way, this injury has actually improved my riding ... I am way more concerned with angulation than I ever was before (though I am still overcoming the fear or falling toeside and reinjuring myself). I've also been riding with a brace that basically immobilizes the damaged shoulder. I think its a natural response to want to touch the ground when you're in a low carve and it's right there. And naturally, we tend to have one hand on either side of the board, so once you get low enough the ground really just comes up to meet your hand: so unless you are actively trying not to touch the ground it's going to happen naturally. (I'm not talking about reaching here, which is a totally different thing and way bad technique). You're probably not going to hurt yourself touching the snow on ice/chalk, but on soft snow it can hurt you ... so its better just to not get in the habit. The other thing is: even if you are not putting any pressure on the arm it is very difficult to resist the temptation to support yourself with it in the event that you should lose your edging. So even if you are just letting it rest on the snow, you could end up damaging yourself - and as anyone who has messed up their shoulders will tell you: once you do it they're pretty much screwed up forever. or: As I understand it, carving-speed seems to be around 30-40 mph. Would you lean your hand out of your car at that speed and rub the ground with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E Posted January 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 I haven't been injured while carving but then I don't have that many hours on the snow. Reading these descriptions of finger / wrist / shoulder injuries makes me worried. I do tend to let my hand near the snow on toesides. Queequeg's advice on angulation seems like good advice both for form and safety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~tb Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 I Think some of the stratton crowd might have seen my lowest hand dragging moment. . . once, while dragging my hands on a toe side, I hit a soft spot and my board slowed way down and I started going forward. the board finally started to catch up, but I was so far forward with the board so "hooked up" that I managed to get my up hill arm UNDER my toeside edge at the nose of my board. My arm stopped dead in the snow, pinned under my edge. As my board and my body kept going, my up hill arm went the full length of my 195 under the edge. Chewed my forearm to @#$% and strained every muscle, tendon and ligament in my arm. That changed my riding for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 ~tb wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 My arm hurts just reading that. Ow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pebu Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 I Think some of the stratton crowd might have seen my lowest hand dragging moment. . .once, while dragging my hands on a toe side, I hit a soft spot and my board slowed way down and I started going forward. the board finally started to catch up, but I was so far forward with the board so "hooked up" that I managed to get my up hill arm UNDER my toeside edge at the nose of my board. My arm stopped dead in the snow, pinned under my edge. As my board and my body kept going, my up hill arm went the full length of my 195 under the edge. Chewed my forearm to @#$% and strained every muscle, tendon and ligament in my arm. That changed my riding for a while. I don't mean to make light of this cause it was obviously very painful and quite a feat, but as somebody who's into failblog.... EPIC FAIL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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