ed_lee Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 I'm planning to give alpine a try after +15 years of snowboarding/skiing. I bought a new Prior ATV, Catek bindings, and Deeluxe boots. Over the past year I've pretty much read everything on this forum and on Carvers Almanac. I plan on getting professional instruction from the start. In preparation for this season I tried on my new gear in the living room with modest stance angles... I never realized how awkward even modest increases in stance angle feel. Now I'm wondering if this is really for me... Question 1: how do you get up off the ground at these stance angles - seriously? Question 2: If I sit on my butt (both feet in bindings), the knee on my back leg feels like it going to tear due to the stance angle. Again, I'm just gently transitioning from standing position to sitting on my butt - I can't imagine what would happen in an actual fall. I'm not using an extreme angle - it's around 35 degrees. I feel this torque in my back knee at angles above 20 degrees when I sit on my butt. How do you guys do this? Is it because you use approx 60 degrees and so sitting on you butt is impossible? I am really worried about damaging my knee. Thanks for your help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 I'm planning to give alpine a try after +15 years of snowboarding/skiing. I bought a new Prior ATV, Catek bindings, and Deeluxe boots. Over the past year I've pretty much read everything on this forum and on Carvers Almanac. I plan on getting professional instruction from the start.In preparation for this season I tried on my new gear in the living room with modest stance angles... I never realized how awkward even modest increases in stance angle feel. Now I'm wondering if this is really for me... Question 1: how do you get up off the ground at these stance angles - seriously? Question 2: If I sit on my butt (both feet in bindings), the knee on my back leg feels like it going to tear due to the stance angle. Again, I'm just gently transitioning from standing position to sitting on my butt - I can't imagine what would happen in an actual fall. I'm not using an extreme angle - it's around 35 degrees. I feel this torque in my back knee at angles above 20 degrees when I sit on my butt. How do you guys do this? Is it because you use approx 60 degrees and so sitting on you butt is impossible? I am really worried about damaging my knee. Thanks for your help! 35 degrees is really low for hard boots, I feel what you're talking about at low angles on plates. also feel it if my canting is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Nice gear! Cateks are good choice for the 1st bindings due to their infinite djustabillity. Play with cant and lift, as well as the angles untill you found a stance that's really comfortable for you. When sitting, you can always sit slightly sideways, more on the hip than on your backside. I found it harder to kneel then sit. To stand up, push with your leading hand only. Or, flip around to your toe edge and stand up like that. It is strange in t the beggining, like everything, but becomes 2nd nature later on... Have fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.T. Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 welcome ed :) IQuestion 1: how do you get up off the ground at these stance angles - seriously? easiest way - roll over to your knees then push up. other option - rather than sitting flat on your butt, sit on your forward cheek which will allow you to push up to the side rather than directly behind you.Question 2: If I sit on my butt (both feet in bindings), the knee on my back leg feels like it going to tear due to the stance angle. Again, I'm just gently transitioning from standing position to sitting on my butt - I can't imagine what would happen in an actual fall. I'm not using an extreme angle - it's around 35 degrees. I feel this torque in my back knee at angles above 20 degrees when I sit on my butt. everybody's kinematics are different. i never sit flat on my butt, it's always on the forward cheek. i never kneel squarely on both knees, i typically sit my butt on my rear heel. tweaking your toe/heel lift and canting can help relieve the pressure in your ankles and knees. i find that at lower binding angles like you have described, i feel the knee pressure also. at higher angles (i.e. 50°f/45°r) i don't have a problem. don't be afraid to experiment and tweak your set-up. i cannot put enough emphasis on this!!! another great thing to do is ride with other hardbooters and ask them for input. seeing someone ride is always better for offering advice than doing it on the web... go to the ride board section to find riders local to your area. good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_roboteye Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 I always stand up and ride away frontside - from my knees. Unless the hill is steep I can't get up from sitting on my butt. BTW my angles are 63 / 60. The other advantage here is you are facing up the hill and can see the moron about to hit you. later, Dave R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronG Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 welcome ed :) another great thing to do is ride with other hardbooters and ask them for input. seeing someone ride is always better for offering advice than doing it on the web... go to the ride board section to find riders local to your area. good luck I find that trying to sit on your butt does torque your knee uncomfortably. I prefer to kneel on my knees and then just stand and ride away. Ed, I see you're in California and that you list Mammoth as your home mountain. I would assume that you are from the Southern Calif area, if so, you definitely need to hook up with some carvers around here. There are plenty of members here, i.e. Nekdut, GaryJ, Carving Chef who spend quite a bit of time at Mammoth. There is also a large contingent that call Snow Summit their base mtn. As D.T. said before, there is nothing like seeing other riders and bouncing different ideas off of them. When I started carving there wasnt a Bomber Online and my riding suffered and was stagnant for many years. Once I found this site my riding took off to a whole new level. I would think that the same has happened for other carvers also. Come on out and join us sometime, we are meeting at Summit on Dec 6. All the local guys are great with giving feedback and helpful tips!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pow4ever Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 In preparation for this season I tried on my new gear in the living room with modest stance angles... I never realized how awkward even modest increases in stance angle feel. Now I'm wondering if this is really for me... Question 1: how do you get up off the ground at these stance angles - seriously? Question 2: If I sit on my butt (both feet in bindings), the knee on my back leg feels like it going to tear due to the stance angle. Again, I'm just gently transitioning from standing position to sitting on my butt - I can't imagine what would happen in an actual fall. I'm not using an extreme angle - it's around 35 degrees. I feel this torque in my back knee at angles above 20 degrees when I sit on my butt. How do you guys do this? Is it because you use approx 60 degrees and so sitting on you butt is impossible? I am really worried about damaging my knee. Thanks for your help! Welcome!!! I can honest tell you I went through the same exact thing. I never ski before so the hardboot almost made me quit after one run. I only got a season under my belt so I am struggle/learning as well. Question 1: It's normal I think; your core musle should get used to them in no time. I find it hard to step-in/strap in(for lack of proper term) when sitting down. Try to get used to it standing up. That sure save me some strenght for all those time I had to get up from those wipe out. Flip youself over to your knee and push up with your hand. Only cavaets is that don't try to do that in a narrow board in 6' of powder!!! lol; I think it's easier to wait for snow to melt than try to get up. There is no levage what so ever. Question 2: Pain bad. Try the stance without boot and binding. Even @ high angle you shouldn't feel any pain. Pehap your stance are too narrow/wide? I am still new to this so check with the veteran here. Overall the hardboot transistion make me a better boarder. I don't feel I am getting any better while riding hardboot; but on the day that I change to softboot. I can feel I can push my gear much harder. Like anything there bounds to be some learning curve. There are many time I want to ditch the hardboot and go with my friends to ride tree/bump/steep. However I am glad I stick it out. I am still pretty much limited to blue or jackson term double blue run but it's fun for me to learn some new skill. HTH -- David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Welcome! I think your other questions have been answered, but I just wanted to add something... Step number one to carving in your new hardboot setup is learning to carve in your old softboot setup. It will make things waaaay easier when you don the hardboots. The test is to see if you can consistently carve down a trail using only the sidecut and no steering, and at each turn transition change edges while the board is pointing across the hill. That is, can you carve the downhill edge? You may have to head down to the greens to get started with this and you may not be able to do it at very high speeds. But if you can get the feel for what your edges and sidecut can do and feel the edge slicing cleanly through the snow with no skidding on your soft gear, you'll know what you're supposed to feel on the hardboots, and it will be a lot less awkward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Question 1: how do you get up off the ground at these stance angles - seriously?Question 2: If I sit on my butt (both feet in bindings), the knee on my back leg feels like it going to tear due to the stance angle. Again, I'm just gently transitioning from standing position to sitting on my butt - I can't imagine what would happen in an actual fall. I'm not using an extreme angle - it's around 35 degrees. I feel this torque in my back knee at angles above 20 degrees when I sit on my butt. How do you guys do this? Is it because you use approx 60 degrees and so sitting on you butt is impossible? I am really worried about damaging my knee. More info here:http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=15090 Most HB riders I know do not sit on the snow. While there will defingitely be times you are on the snow while learning, some of the tips here will help you to stay upright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeho730 Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Welcome! I also use Prior ATV 161 with Catek FR2 and 32 Forecast boots (size US8). 1. Ah well... it's a bit trickier on the backside. I bend my knees and push myself up against the slope. Personally it was harder for me to get up on the ski, especially when tired. 2. I know what you mean. The knees are more uncomfortable on high angle when I sit. I guess I just got used to it. Actually, I learnt to lie on the front side with my kneeds bent. It kinda works. FYI, I use the following setup: 54/48, width 47.5cm lift 3 cant 1 on the back foot. You can also try extremecarving with your setup. I can do toeside carve. Hope this helps :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 I hate sitting on the snow, but if I do I keep my hips facing the same direction as my boots. If I have to wait a long time for some reason I'll unclip my rear foot. Kneeling is way worse for me, I only put my rear knee on the snow unless I can lay down and pretend I'm extreme carving. ;) You do get used to it after a while. Remember that it likely felt really weird to have both feet strapped into a regular board at first. You adapt and deal with it. Another silly way to sit around is to lay on your back and stand your board vertically on its tail. You're pretty much going to die if someone skis into you but it is surprisingly comfortable up to that point. :p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 one more suggestion is to set your soft gear to forward angles and practice alpine stance with gear your comfortable on. I hate trying to get up on heel side & either rollover to toe side to make it easy, or in deeper snow I sometimes release the back foot, stand up & clip back in, less effort than pushing off the snow with your hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slider32 Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 The other advantage here is you are facing up the hill and can see the moron about to hit you. Ah, I see you have experienced the Whistler gorby syndrome as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loc Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Ed - it's good to see another SoCal carver on here. You should enable e-mail in your preferences too. I definitely agree with Aaron (oldvolvos) on meeting up with some of us in the LA mountains or Mammoth/June. Post a thread in in the SoCal forum and introduce yourself, where you like to ride, how often etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fin Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Ed_lee, Welcome! Good advice from all here. I will add this: - Yes, 35 degrees tends to be on the low side for plates. After years of setting up bindings for myself and others for some reason around this number of 35, the body just does not line-up correctly. Something with the way the lower legs line-up vs. being in a hardboot setup. Try angles around 40 degrees and up. - As far as sitting down, two words: step in. With step in no real need to sit. I have not had a seat on the ice for years now due to step-in. Just an option. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terryw Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Hey Ed, just letting you know that a few of us will be up at Summit this Thursday, and this Sunday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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