b0ardski Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Just some thoughts.....What if we banded together by location and pooled our extra/loaner gear for those wanting to give alpine a try? Maybe we could get a thread by location in the Ride Boards titled "Need a Demo". People who want to try alpine out could post there and hopefully get hooked. My experience is that some people who see us laying trenches are interesting in trying alpine but not willing to drop the coin to buy equipment first. We need to be Ambassadors for alpine and let them try it out. Most people that are interested and try it get hooked on the control once they figure it out. If we could offer loaner equipment, casual instruction and be good PR people, then maybe we can attract a few new riders. This is happening small scale here in N.Idaho. Steve P. at Silver Mt. and Brutha Dane & myself at Schwietzer have extra gear to loan and love to give impromtu lessons to anyone we can talk into trying it. I was approached by a 40 something skiier last season on a lift ride to help him learn to carve. He was inspired to pick up an old rossi after seeing our graceful carves on steep groomers. We've spread stoke to some of the younger guys that work at the resort, and I'm thinking I should spend a little time in the park this year to show'em that these are not race boots. Trying to Ambassador hardbooting will help dispel the elitism and promote the grass roots growth I've seen lately. Until a major manufacturer supports alpine that's all we can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonbordin Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 I've been soft booting since 1986 and I'm trying to get a hard boot setup going. :) I've been interested in trying a hard boot setup for some time now but I've never seen one available for demo or rent at any of the places I've been and I've been to quite a few. Add to that the complexity of hard booting (not a problem for me ) and there are some serious hurdles to overcome. There are some fantastic web resources, of which BOL is one, but these are for the already committed not the fence sitters. IMHO, It will take a real push by the Olympic team, as say a traveling show, to go around and show what can be done with alpine equipment and have a demo contingent in tow. Even with all that one can not realistically hope that it will ever be anything but a smaller side market of the whole like telemark, ski blades, longboarding is to surfing due to the ease of soft booting and the overall lack of true alpine terrain for the majority of the world. Kids all over can grab a soft boot setup head to the local sled hill and board & jib... that's not going to happen with an alpine setup. Thanks again BOL community for your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddy Tat Posted November 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 The problem truley is there is just not enough income in the hardbooting biznes to fund such endevoiurs. I know just about everyone in the alpine industry in north america, none of us is making a real big profit, to help fund such a task. In the early 90's we really tried to make such a push and we saw a return for our efforts, but currently the industry is barely supporting itself, and with the ability to sell direct online distributors are the retailers, in the past most industry show are to push your wears to shops but when you are the shop you know your going to sell your stuff.......so why go to trade shows. You can do it for cheap with just some videos, but so many people just see nothing by watching some one flop from edge to edge.. When is the last time you saw a ski vid filled with people edging? The people want to see big lines and park n pipe shots, requardless of weather its skiing or snowboarding. For us in the US our biggest tool is USASA events that give kids a chance to race, If any one thinks they could fund a booth during the nationals then we could have a chance at convincing parents that racing has more to it then just riding hardboots in a course. I think we could also go old school and create a RV tour with good PR we could share the stoke some were new each week, Placing prodect under feet is the quickest way to convert more current riders looking for the next challange. I understood your pricing, I was just giving a example of the true cost of riding. I just picked the same number since so many locals I know do under the table alpine stuff..and that would be a cheap lesson compared to resort prices, even with out the gear. IF you are a traveling resort snowboarder you could spend over 400 bones a day in tickets and lessons to get better, is having to pay $1000 dollars in gear to proform during a week long trip outlandish??? Even when you can us the gear any day after. People don't seem to think so in the skiing world. The alpine snowboard world seems to feel differently. Some times I tune for a shop at the base of Park City, I also spend some times pitching snow board set ups. Some times in one day I would sell 15-20 complete softie set ups. Even all the alpine retailers in the US bareley do that together in a couple busy month. Some months no one sells anything...I am not complaining as a retailer, just speaking what I see going on. If you look at some companys like lets say Catek, Its really just a one man show, and I think Jeff still has another job, Bruce from colier had a second job also until a couple of years back, Fin sells other prodects besides snowboard prodect to stay afloat. Sean and his wife run Donek almost all by themselves, most in the alpine industry love the sport enough that they make large sacrifices to keep the sport going. Any thing anyone on the BOl board can do to help is just as effective as a few people who are already very busy for the love of the sport, they can only all do so much. I agree with you on all your points. The RV tour is a really good idea. Kind of a mini travelling SES if you will. My intent with the Ski & Snowboard comment show is that perhaps the current OEMs and distributors band together and share the cost of this. I realize that the companies involved in this don't have a huge amount of capital laying around so sharing this cost would be a good idea. While not selling directly at the show there would be indirect sales from that effort. As stated above there is a entry level board the Donek pilot, I'm guessing if Sean was actually selling (alot) more of these then there is the chance the price on them would drop. Though between you and me the $415 he charges for the board is reasonable and on par what you would buy a mid-level SB board for during the season. There are entry level priced bindings (Snowpros, and Ibex) in the $200-$250 (cdn) price range. So our problem as someone mentioned above appears to be boots. Boots are in the 450-600 price range. So if one of teh major boot manufacturers (UPZ, Deeluxe, or Head) to producing a slightly softer boot without all the bells and whistles. Such a boot would probabl be a good cross over for AM riding as well. BTW I really like the idea of creating a demo pool and kudos to those guys who have already created one. I should see about setting up something like that here in Edmonton. Using Kijiji or Craiglist it would be easy to. This is a great idea for the alpine community. If we grow the sport then then hopefully the equipment will eventually increase. Another one A big to everyone on here for an interesting discussion. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keenan Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Maybe along with a demo pool someone could create a list of ski boots that would work passably with alpine bindings. I know some boots have a shorter footprint and more flex, but some ski boots wont even pair up with our bindings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 I think there is almost something like this on this site already, and there's also the "carver's almanac", but how about a Wiki or similar which is designed specifically to answer the questions: (a) I'm an competent softbooter and but I'd like to ride piste harder or I'm going to have to turn into a skier? (b) I'm a competent skier and I'm curious about snowboards but there's no way in hell I ever want to sideslip or wear flourescent pants. So there'd be nothing there which wanks on about adjusting bindings machined out of solid blocks of unobtanium, or thousand quid swiss boards (they're only boards ffs), just stuff which gets you from the two places above to a decent carve? Also you'd want it with good graphic design. It has to look organized, safe, not train-spotter-ish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
energyrail Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 I think trying hard boots, is as simple as finding bindings for your freeride deck. Borrowing some ski boots or using your own. This isn't an ideal situation but it works, you should get that railed locked in turn this way. I did that twice and found that this could be better with proper boots. But now I ride mostly on my 175 frontier and 181 supermodel. looking back I think the freeride boards will lend themselves better to the longer sole ski boots. I think there are lots of reasons to start a beginner on a freeride board, versus a square rail board. So for me I'd say that bindings is the missing link for the newbie Hard booter. But with the internet it shouldn't take someone too long to find info and gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willow 15 Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Great thread and very interesting. I wonder what the average age of an alpine rider is compared to soft boot rider. With age comes wisdom. There will never be a begginer/learner hardboot package cause it will never sell even with the best marketing/olympic coverage/blah blah blah. Cheap gear is available out there, maybe not new but servicable and probably in most cases to good. How many people who have metal boards on this forum would have just as much fun on a glass board. In the last few months there has been loads of amazing boards in the classifieds, i.e. Madds. Once upon a time you would have to prise a board like this from its dead owners hands. On a completely different tack maybe we should make it more exclusive and bring back the asymetric so the big companies and shops will run away screaming.(Hi Jack) Even more fun in the lift line answering stupid questions, (why do you have a bit chopped off?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 I do enjoy that look of astonishment when I carve back uphill at some body:eek: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 So the question is, is there a way that entry-level equipment can be manufactured such that a new carver could get set up on entry-level equipment for below $750? Yes, however, it is not likely (not financially viable with current interest levels but I'm wondering if the tech is required to make these boards ridable is there any chance of them ever hitting that entry level price point? Dave Yes, available now, won't happen. Not even sure I would want it to. Pretty happy with our current trends. Great custom gear, close knit community of hard core carvers. Perhaps slight increase growth to help insure the success of current vendors. As far as new market? Talk to those just starting, most IMO came through watching YOU Journeymen carvers and YOUR efforts. What could be better. New carvers? Be forward, ask questions, get next to those that do what you want to do. Pretty simple really. Need help in the PNW. Give me a shout. Carve on dude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Wait a minute! this is not about cost! If anyone out there really wants toHB Carve, then they will, just like YOU DID. Racing SL and GS and all the Alpine riders put together does not equal 1% of the total snowboard market... If even 20 % switched to Alpine, the slopes would be a danger zone! Just a couple hundred at SES and the confrontations with skiers and jibbers is off and running...Editorials...BS...whatever Carving is unique in that you use the whole slope side to side and even head back uphill to slash a cutback...imagine hundreds of folks doing that at your local hill...you are part of a very small clique...just enjoy it! Couldn't agree more!! Enjoy what you got. Go carve! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 20%? That's pie in the sky. How about we aim for all the riders currently able to carve a turn in their softies. I estimate that to be roughly 2%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael.a Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 Ive got to pick on something here, Im all for cheaper alpine equipment and god damn it boots are way too expensive and difficult to choose, but I see this one mantra recurring in this thread like its some obvious truth. Honestly, who cares if more people start riding alpine? Why is this important? Im guessing 95% of you got into the sport with your own balls and initiative because thats the nature of this sport, its technical as hell, expensive no matter what, risky, and lets not forget its "different". And its not like carving is the "light" that the masses need to see, jibbers like jibbing, I mean you could go on and on and on about people drinking Budweiser instead of some awesome beligan ale or for driving **** cars or buying some cheesy audio equipment instead of the good stuff or going to disneyland instead of exploring guatamala, but why? And the clincher is that I like that alpine is an elitist niche sport. And just look how well its doing now, why mess with a good thing? My 2 cents fellas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 Honestly, who cares if more people start riding alpine? Why is this important? Im guessing 95% of you got into the sport with your own balls and initiative because thats the nature of this sport, its technical as hell, expensive no matter what, risky, and lets not forget its "different".And the clincher is that I like that alpine is an elitist niche sport. And just look how well its doing now, why mess with a good thing? My 2 cents fellas. Hey, bentech, I think you might have a point here. You make a lot of sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdyno Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 I would say that like anyting else that I do and enjoy, I like sharing the experience with others. The pros of having more people is that it allows a bigger marketplace so retailers don't have as much of a burden carying the gear, it allows a wider range of equipment and also allows more money to go in to development of new gear. The cons are that it loses it's niche status, something I think many posters enjoy. It would also cause a bunch of inferior equipment to flood the market and I think this is a sport that would especially suffer if that were the case. Look at a current thread about older binding setup where people have strongly suggested a poster loose his old, prone to failure bindings. While these are just a few examples of each side, I would like to get as many of my friends to try it as I can. I like skiing but don't do it now as my focus is carving. That doesn't mean I wouldn't encourage people to try it, but I would suggest they try hardboots as I have equipment they could use. I don't think alpine is doing that well, I am sure all the retailers would love to see it doing better. I think that because it is a technique heavy discipline, most people shy away from it to start as softboot boards are a lot more forgiving of beginners. I know I got in to it for the speed and the fact that I don't have any desire to wear my pants low and land on my head all the time. I mean ride the parks and pipes. Yeah, that's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crucible Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Alpine carving will always be a small niche- primarily because I think that to get good at it you need to really devote some serious time on the hill making carved turns to see some progress. I think that it has a similar learning curve to telemark skiing vs alpine skiing- I didn't see any progress in my telemark skiing until I decided to spend 2-3 seasons practicing my telemark turns exclusively when I went out- backountry or at the ski hill. Most recreational snowboarders are lucky to get out 10-12 times in a season - in fact the SIA classifies someone with that many resort days as a "serious" snowboarder. I don't think you could really lock into carving within that time frame... Most good carvers that I ride with have devoted a LOT of on hill time to their alpine apprenticeship - 50 plus days a season for YEARS is not uncommon for carvers on BOL.... I suggest that without some serious individual instruction and a personal commitment to learning how to carve, that it's not going to happen for the bulk of the snowboard masses... The gear definitely helps, and to stay in the spirit of this thread, I firmly believe that the missing gear component of alpine carving is a manufacturer of hardboots who will cover all sections of the market- kids, women, recreational carvers and racers. The binding part of the equation is wonderfully covered by the grassroots boutique suppliers like Bomber, Catek, F2 and Intec, but until the boots have the same level of selection, the sport will suffer. But as others have noticed and stated, there are many soft boot freeriders out there who can rail their decks. I suspect that what allows them to carve in style is a lot of time on the hill too.... The local Vancouver BC hardboot tribe led by Blue B, Carving Scooby, Dave S*, tenorman and Ruwi have been exemplary ambassadors for our sport locally for the past 5 years. They have mentored new carvers, loaned out gear at their own expense, held demo days and carving sessions on the local ski hills, and sourced consignment shops, swaps, ebay and many a dusty garage and closet for a forgotten alpine carving gem. Their grassroots efforts, approachability, friendly guidance and instruction are the critical factors that have developed our sport for the better, and are the keys to its future growth. YMMV, Geo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Thanks for the kind words, Geo! Please don't forget yourself as the great ambassador. When I ate your dust down the Fork, in the year 1 or 2 of my alpine riding, you were the real inspiration! I thought to myself: "Well, it would take some work to keep up with this guy's smooth, fast style..." Ride-on my friend! Peaks are getting white, life is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Well stated Geo!! The perfect summary IMO . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Lots of good points guys. Carving is not something beginners and 5-10 days a season types are after. It does take at least some commitment, even for cheap, used gear & dabbling on groomer days. On the other side of that coin, if more entry level, freeride oriented gear (especially boots) was readily available, we would at least spend less time convincing people that we are from this planet. Being a niche is irrelevant. I use plastic boots for the edge control they give me, That is what I enjoy sharing with others. Filing off the edges so they don't catch on a rail is for kids, when they grow out of it I'm happy to show them what edges are for. That sounds elitist, so be it:eplus2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BulletProof Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 It's happened a couple times. I find a softbooter on the hill carving some turns on a freeride/AM board. I just gravitate towards him and we start playing around a who can lay the smoothest cleanest line. One guy I talked to after, he'd never ridden hardboots but was seriously curious at trying it out at the next demo. He'd spent many days working on his carves but he saw possibilities when I accidently got locked into a high G / small radius carve, not something possible on his rig... There's a bunch of freeriders that enjoy going fast, carving and aren't interested in the whole 'sit on your ass' park scene. I think that getting these boarders attention and communicating with them can make an impact. Compliments and advice goes both ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crucible Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 I agree with Luc 100%. I have always made time for anyone who has approached me to ask about alpine carving or my hardboot set up. I have been pleasantly surprised by the interest that our style of riding has generated from skiers and softbooters under the age of 15- young kids have asked me all sorts of interesting questions.... Older skier and riders (by older, I mean over the age of 30) sometimes approach me in the lift line to compliment me on my carving- but my favorite comment was from an elderly German skier who I often see Saturday mornings at first tracks on Grouse. Last December during the Christmas holiday season he came up to me and said, "You- carving boy, please leave some of the hill free of those nasty trenches you put into the slopes, my knees can't take the abuse!". I replied that I'd be happy to, as soon as he and his fellow skiers left the steep slopes free of those pesky moguls that they put into the mountain... He just laughed, and winked at me as he walked off the tram. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Carving Paparazzi? (nicer then "stalkers") Ever noticed folks racing ahead then stopping to watch and take photos? Seems like more often skiers than snowboarders. Sometimes they eventually either manage to get on the chair with you or come up and ask about it. Pretty funny when you look up and see the same person two or three times , then they are sharing a chair with you. They often get on the chair just staring at the gear. I just smile and wait for the questions to start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Prokopiw Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 I've had a few stop next to me as I'm resting and say that they've been following me all day waiting to ask about what I'm doing.That's when I hook em and reeeel em in:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenorman Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 The local Vancouver BC hardboot tribe led by Blue B have been exemplary ambassadors for our sport locally Geo hi BORIS i don't have time to help STEVE DOMAN (at least for a few more weeks) as i am still trying to squeeze out the last of the snowless trails on my new bike. his WTB thread is here: http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=26668 i have skated with this kid before and at the time i thought he would be a natural at hardbooting. imagine my surprise (and pleasure) when i saw his post. i won't be checking bomberonline much until the snowboard season starts locally so please keep an eye out for my boy STEVIE D. until then. thanks doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 At your, and his service, kind Sir! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik J Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 A reminder - http://www.bomberonline.com/store/accessories/hard_boot_card.cfm I keep these is my jacket whenever someone seems legitimately interested in hardboots. It's a small notion but ya never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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