GeoffV Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 Thanks Jack and Bola! Ok, makes total sense now. It sure would be nice to not have to work so damn hard all the time:lol: Steph it took me 4 days on my new Coiler to figure out I was working the board to hard and needed to just let the board do it's thing. :rolleyes: Now on the flip side I have difficulty riding my 58 Madd because I'm not working it hard enough:mad: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffV Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 New School Race.Bruce, what's my commission up to? ;) Hey if anybody should get comp'd it should be Schurman or Shred. Bens' been on Coilers for years and we are just now figuring it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 Jack,The second larger Pic of your stick on the wood floor... If you put your weight on those bindings while it is there on the floor does it lift the nose higher off the floor? I was told that Burton is doing this to one of the supermodels on both the tail and the nose? also this is interesting: If I put my original Performer Elite 150 on a hard flat surface unweighted it is flat under the feet and then tapers up from there in both directions Thanks :) Of course - because the shape of the nose will remain static while your weight will flatten the camber on the rest of the board. So when you flatten the center of the board, it will increase the angle of initiation of the nose's upturn when measured from the floor. This will happen with an old-school nose too, but to a much lesser extent. Think of the contact point between the (cambered) board and the floor near the nose as a fulcrum, and the center of the board as a lever. When you bear down on the lever, the remaining length on the other side of the fulcrum will rise accordingly. Otherwise: burton isn't doing anything special here ... sounds like marketing bs to me ... step on the center of any cambered board with an upturned nose or tail, and they will rise. This is basic physics, and a phenomenon that is common to all (cambered) snowboards. Of course, the longer and flatter the de-cambered nose is (in addition the the amount of camber the board has), the greater the effect will be ... so perhaps that is what is meant: magnification of an existing effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptran11 Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 Great work Jack! Should this be sticky'd or put in an article on BOL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted March 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 If you put your weight on those bindings while it is there on the floor does it lift the nose higher off the floor? That's what I did in the pictures marked "middle of board flat on ground". Camera on timer, me standing on board. Great work Jack! Should this be sticky'd or put in an article on BOL? It would probably be helpful to put this in the articles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 One thing I'd like to add. On why these boards ride better then a traditional nose profile. Notice on Jacks pics of the decambered nose, especially the one where he is standing in the middle of the board. See how smooth and gradual the shape of the nose is it kind of just blends past the contact point of the effective edge and sidecut. Now look at the MADD, see how abrupt the raduis is from where the side cut ends to the tip of the board. Think about riding in packed powder snow. It is common to have your board dig in an inch into the snow. When the board is burried this far in the snow an old school nose profile will want to catch and make the arc tighter. So builders had to make the nose of the board stiffer so it wouldn't catch and try to force a tighter turn. This is what most people falsley call "folding the nose". The nose profile radius actually grabs the snow and forces the board to dig in more or to hook up on a super tight arc that throws the rider over the bars. With a decambered nose, when the board digs into the snow it does not want to tighten the turn. So builder can now make the boards softer and more forgivable without comprimising ridability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Pukas Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 You guys have to realize that the idea of rocker has been around for quite a while (years) in the free-ski and soft-board snowboard world. Not sure where it first came from, but I've heard Jonny Mosely talk about Shane McConkey (RIP brother) taking the idea f/ water skis years ago. What I think surprised most people is that rocker actually works very well for carving boards. Being that it was originally conceived and built for powder skis, why would it work for carving boards? Seems like the exact opposite of what we want doesn't it? Exactly as Jack has stated - allows the nose to hook up better and ride over rough stuff w/out getting jolted. Jack - spend some more time on that board and then let us know if you want to revise it all. I've been out of the carving world for 6 years, and when I first rode a rockered metal board after 2 turns I said this was the best board I've ever riden. Period. So I do understand what a revelation it is. Here's a diagram f/ Never Summer's website showing how they take the idea of combining camber and rocker to a whole new level. Now would this I wonder work on a carving board? Rocker, camber, construction and shape technologies are going to make leaps and bounds in the next couple years in the free-ski and board world. We have a lot more catching up to do... mpp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utahcarver Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 As to rocker for boards, that would probably first go to surfboard design. Next, Milovich used rocker on Wintersticks in the '70s. Some skateboards have had rocker over the years, too. My first Sims snowboard was rockered (1700 Ultimate Powder). What's old is new. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 but Jack just want to enlighten some very old technik here for guys/girls that didn't know of this. Thanks Jack for making it clear to us with that nice pics. That rockered and decambered nose/baord has been used and is still being used for years in the (wave) surf and (wave)windsurf world where I came from (20 years ago and before that) before I ever laid hands on a snowboard. Nice to see that it also has its benefits in the alpine snowboard world/freecarve world for us recreational carvers now I love my decambered Tinkie. Setting in a turn has never been that easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohiomoto Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 http://www.lib-tech.com/banana/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik J Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 Jack - thanks for this thread. Reading this makes me want to buy a new board. Awesome job... as always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyTKDsquirrel Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 http://www.lib-tech.com/banana/index.html lol. More like reverse camber I've seen a lot of those banana skates around...two of my park monkey friends ride one. I should borrow one and test their carving abilities :rolleyes: :D ETA: I just thought this was funny...a bit about their magne-traction stuff: Take a file and round your edges so they don't hang up on the rails, boxes, or ledges. Then go ride everywhere! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohiomoto Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 I think I bent the tip on my board several years ago, but forgot about it. Does that mean I'm a step ahead of you guys? :) Anyway, I wonder if we'll ever see this with high end skis? You would think that with the amount of development that goes into race skis they would be ahead of the curve on this stuff. Of course the race skis are governed by the FIS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohiomoto Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 lol. More like reverse camber I've seen a lot of those banana skates around...two of my park monkey friends ride one. I should borrow one and test their carving abilities :rolleyes: :D I've been told they carve quite well. Hard to believe, but that's the word. I'll try to snag a demo on one next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyTKDsquirrel Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 I wonder how that wavy edge will change things, if at all. Now I'm wanting to try one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohiomoto Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 That edge is weird too. Again, if it's so great, why has the ski industry not picked up on it?? Seems like they are trying to create a marketing wave for themselves to ride and it's working. I would have never even looked twice at the one I saw, but it was so F'ed up I couldn't not take a closer look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 Our friend Rod "Softbooter" has two of these. He loved the first one so much that he had to buy a backup too. He doesn't ride his Prior AMF any more. He can carve it pretty well on green runs... but... on the day when my the pics in my avatar were shot, on nice steep black run, all he could do was skid. Conditions were nice hard pack bordering hero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 I think I bent the tip on my board several years ago, but forgot about it. Does that mean I'm a step ahead of you guys? :)Anyway, I wonder if we'll ever see this with high end skis? You would think that with the amount of development that goes into race skis they would be ahead of the curve on this stuff. Of course the race skis are governed by the FIS. look at high end skis before you make these comments if you look closely, the tips of high end skis and kesslers have a some similarities Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 That edge is weird too. Again, if it's so great, why has the ski industry not picked up on it?? Seems like they are trying to create a marketing wave for themselves to ride and it's working. I would have never even looked twice at the one I saw, but it was so F'ed up I couldn't not take a closer look. yes and no, magnetraction DOES work according to people who ride the boards. rocker, it DOES work in the park. mervin has always done thing their own way, sometime for the worse like their capped boards with the ABS spacer that would delam but other times they do things that lead market like now with the rocker boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateW Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 Thanks for the pics! Where is the widest point on the nose of the NSR? Is it about even with the tip of the leaf in the graphics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohiomoto Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 look at high end skis before you make these comments if you look closely, the tips of high end skis and kesslers have a some similarities What high end are you talking about? All my race stock stuff has full camber. Of course it's all 2-3 years old, but none of the local hill reps have said anything about decambered tips. I'm not saying it isn't out there. Just saying I'm not aware of it. Also, I was thinking along the lines of FIS racing, not a park or powder ski. Just saying that you would think that they would be all over it if it works. Of course it took them some time to adapt to shape skis. Maybe I missed something?BTW, I didn't know I had to be 100% positive about anything before commenting. I figured I would just post my comments a see what others have to say about it. Thanks for the heads up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 What high end are you talking about? All my race stock stuff has full camber. Of course it's all 2-3 years old, but none of the local hill reps have said anything about decambered tips. I'm not saying it isn't out there. Just saying I'm not aware of it. Also, I was thinking along the lines of FIS racing, not a park or powder ski. Just saying that you would think that they would be all over it if it works. Of course it took them some time to adapt to shape skis. Maybe I missed something?BTW, I didn't know I had to be 100% positive about anything before commenting. I figured I would just post my comments a see what others have to say about it. Thanks for the heads up. older stuff, even from the 90s had interesting geometry up front. park skis also sometimes nose rise that starts way back, mot nearly as pronounced as boards but I suspect the same thing is going on. a couple skis in the fischer line are like this currently. Head's park skis I need to look at more closely, they have a gentle rise as well. the first time I heard anything about altered nose geometry was in the 90s, not rocker as we call it but seems like it was acomplishing the same thing. it was explained by a volkl rep as that they made the rise of the tip as such that it was more gradual and they modified the sidecut in that part of the ski. the idea was to make the ski more smooth turning in varried conditions like bashing through crud. Also, blended radius boards and skis have been around for a long time. maybe not in this implementation but this is certainly not a new idea. more of a perfection of it. IMO making something work is more important than coming up with it first. that said, rocker along has been around in various forms in the ski industry for a long time as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 What high end are you talking about? All my race stock stuff has full camber. Of course it's all 2-3 years old, but none of the local hill reps have said anything about decambered tips. I'm not saying it isn't out there. Just saying I'm not aware of it. Also, I was thinking along the lines of FIS racing, not a park or powder ski. Just saying that you would think that they would be all over it if it works. Of course it took them some time to adapt to shape skis. Maybe I missed something?BTW, I didn't know I had to be 100% positive about anything before commenting. I figured I would just post my comments a see what others have to say about it. Thanks for the heads up. Put your race stock skies base to base, use a strap to tie them together in the middle so the bases are actually touching and I'm sure you'll see that you can start to see space between the bases far before where you would consider the actual "tip". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 I would say all of the modern skis have widest poit of sidecut ahead of base contact point, even when just sitting on the floor unloaded. Dynastar had this quite exagerated for at least 6-7 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias112 Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 Just want to share my experience with you:) Facts: Skis and boards made for high speeds do not have decambered noses becase it will make them less stable att high speed. High speed needs long contactsurface and low noses to avoid that air gets under the nose. Note that the noses have a very smooth low uplift. I have been riding A LOT of boards the last 15 years. And despite that boards are a lot better now, there are some things that will not change: A sharp uplift will make the boards dig in soft conditions. Also if the board has a sharp turn in the noseshape(outline of the nose) at the end of the running length it will also dig ... A elliptic radius with steep radius at nose and shallow in the middle will have poor edgegrip in harder conditions in higher speeds especially in a laydown turn. But the concept works great in the pipe and park. Here you want a board that reacts very quickly but you are not so concerned about edgegrip in a laydown turn... But as always the construction and flex of the board is just as important(if not more so) than the shape of the nose and sidecut... Have a nice day:biggthump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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