Hey go custom yourself.

[ohiomoto]

What where you guys saying??:1luvu::1luvu:

[dave29]

One more response b4 I move on. Bordy it's great that you wrote about new and improved equipment as well as the progression of hardbootn, I truly appreciate that from you and others. That's what BOL is all about. But you didn't stop there. You began to rip-down on people and that is not COOL! So that's why I take issue with you. I look forward to next season with more growth to our AWESOME sport.

[Bullwings]

Let me get this right, I post about there being new gear and you should all get into it cuz it will make riding easier and better for you all and the response i get are about my credability and rant etc selling gear???/

Keep on your BOL lifestyles....I'll keep on snowboarding

whatever dude, save the martyr act. If someone else did this, they would have been banned a long time ago. But you're some kind of superstar. Is this your come back from last year's farewell?

Gotta remind us all that you're still here, right?

And there's nothing wrong with selling old gear, everyone does it, but when you do it after having numerous rants about progression of the sport, holding back this, doesn't rip that, not with the in and current blah blah blah.

You're just a car salesman. You say all this crap about said model of car. Then, because you happen to have a few on hand, you go and try to sell it. Then, when a customer comes your way, you all of a sudden have nothing but praises for it. What happened to all the negative commentary you had for it in other threads?

I didn't see anything in your sales thread saying, none of this gear is in with the current progression of the sport. It doesn't rip the way all the newer stuff does. You're holding your riding back by using this old junk. blah blah blah. Why is that? Did i miss something?

But, you're just some chill cat that says it as it is, right?

BTW, you call everyone else out with their credibility, right? Like, what you done for the sport and the industry and talk about how you're always putting your neck on the line and making sacrifices.

What's wrong with someone calling you out? Some how it doesn't seem like you really don't have as good a response for this one. You're not being belittling and condescending enough...

Anyway, car salesman, keep your junk off of the classifieds, we don't want it because it doesn't rip...

[philfell]

Last time I checked Hardbooter doesen't sell SG or Kessler.

[Jack M]

I think in this thread Bordy is addressing those of us who are more committed than average and are buying one or more full custom boards. I didn't take it that he thinks <i>everyone</i> should be living on the cutting edge of the sport. For those people who can't justify spending a lot on boards, he provides good used boards and sometimes those are former world cup level boards, which is cool. I wish more pros did this.

[tex1230]

I think in this thread Bordy is addressing those of us who are more committed than average and are buying one or more full custom boards. I didn't take it that he thinks <i>everyone</i> should be living on the cutting edge of the sport. For those people who can't justify spending a lot on boards, he provides good used boards and sometimes those are former world cup level boards, which is cool. I wish more pros did this.

He should pay you to be his publicist.

Bordy, much respect to you and what you're trying to do, but tone and tact are things you need to learn if you want to avoid ****shows like this.

(of course, I think this is just a very successful troll)

[carvedog]

Let me get this right, I post about there being new gear and you should all get into it cuz it will make riding easier and better for you all and the response i get are about my credability and rant etc selling gear???/

Keep on your BOL lifestyles....I'll keep on snowboarding

Hey Bordy - as long as they are talking you got the job done.

Don't paint all bombers with the same brush. I am stuck at the computer quite a bit these days, but that doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of us out there who are riding quite a bit too. Three different out of town bombers that I met this year were all riding relatively new equipment. I didn't get to ride with the one guy but the other two ripped. Especially for being from small areas with no "big mountain' areas close by.

For the most part I have been really impressed with the caliber of people I meet through bomber.

Just because you have an opinion that rubs some the wrong way doesn't mean there isn't a large silent audience out there. They can't all be fans. What fun would that be?

[Mike T]

I think in this thread Bordy is addressing those of us who are more committed than average and are buying one or more full custom boards.

I guess he's talking to me then.

I will try a newer Kessler (the one I tried belongs to Shane Groshong, and it's a few years old) and will not miss my next opportunity to try an SG. But I'm not gonna go as far as Jack did and shell out >$1000 just to try!

Let's just say that I am very, very happy with my collection on Coilers and even more happy with how far I have been able to push myself on them. I was the kid who tried out for sports teams in high school and never made the cut... sikking and snowboarding are the first sports where I've shown any semblance of athletic ability so I'm enjoying it for all it's worth.

And I still stand by what I said earlier - there is a time and a place for things like radial sidecuts for people such as myself, although I'll be damned if I'm ever going to buy another non-metal alpine board at least until the Next Big Thing comes out. I will certainly agree that out of my quiver, my NSR is the board on which I have the most potential to progress. There are some days, some conditions... on which the best way to push myself is to prioritize speed control over speed and then do a run that might otherwise be out of my league. At these times a board that would be no fun at all to a rider of Bordy's level is the ticket for me.

When I can rail my NSR (or an SG 185 or a Kessler PGS) down anything in any conditions, feeling good and looking good doing it, I will have arrived. In the meantime, the rest of my quiver will get a workout, getting me to that level.

On another note: Can't wait to hear Jack's head-to-head on New Kessler versus New NSR. That oughtta stir the pot again

[Jack M]

But I'm not gonna go as far as Jack did and shell out >$1000 just to try!

Try $1500. My kidney is on the helicopter now.

[Mike T]

Try $1500. My kidney is on the helicopter now.

Yikes! I did notice that SG Full Team Race is 900 Euro or about $1200 but that doesn't include shipping to the US...

[pokkis]

I'm not sure about taxes in US, but we must pay here 22% sales tax of that (price+shipping charge), due they are outside EU

[ur13]

Try $1500. My kidney is on the helicopter now.

Is anyone a cyclist here? $1500 will get you a mid-range decent wheelset, or a low end frame, or half a mid range component group. Road and mountain are in the same realms now as well.

Hell, even a top of the line composite slalom race skateboard with race trucks, bearings and wheelsets with all the cutting edge tech is around $1000-1200 for everything.

Anyone ride motorcycles here? Auto cross? Kayaks? Sailing? $1500 is a drop in a never ending bucket for those "sports".

I do remember the days of the $500 Burton complete... but those days left us a long time ago. Sure you can still buy a $500 complete snowboard...but no one wants to ride that here.

Given $1500 buys you a cutting edge, top of the line, F1 level technology (respectively) gear isn't too bad at all. Especially when we all play in a niche sport that is increasingly gear and tech driven made (mostly) by small (generally custom) manufacturers that are not making huge margins on the gear they make you (think of what it costs Burton to make the $500 complete and then the margin they make on it selling it to shops....sadly that will never be possible with alpine snowboarding).

The benefit of all this "top of the line" gear out currently is that in a few years time the bleeding edge will trickle down to more moderately priced gear. Plus you have all the demo and used gear out there to pick up at lower prices.

Sure, even when the economy is good, $1500 is pushing most people's ability to participate at the level they want too given life's complexities and responsibilities for most. But in the bigger picture $1500 is not unreasonable for the level of tech we are now able to get in our gear.

Not everyone needs the latest and greatest. The "old stuff" still "works" for most. Thinking you have to have the newest and greatest to be a "core" rider, or even a good rider, is laughable.

But it is sure nice to have it and the price is what it is. Pay to play with anything gear/tech driven...

[shawndoggy]

Is anyone a cyclist here? $1500 will get you a mid-range decent wheelset, or a low end frame, or half a mid range component group. Road and mountain are in the same realms now as well.

Perhaps I'm incredibly unlucky (or overly sensitive), but my concern is that it's pretty easy to put a rock through the bottom that completely ruins the board.

I guess it's the same as training on your zipps. But I'd want this high zoot board to RIDE and all the time, as opposed to a fast roadie wheelset that I save for special occasions.

(and on that front, anybody want a set of zipp 404 clinchers laced to a powertap SL and light front hub? :))

[Mike T]

While $1500 may not be so bad relative to sports such as cyling...

... I'm simply not sold on the idea that a Kessler or SG is going to give me enough extra enjoyment over a Coiler that it's worth spending twice as much.

Actually, if I were sure that there would be some incremental enjoyment over a Coiler I might take the plunge. But I'm just not convinced. I *have* ridden a Kessler KST, admittedly not a latest and greatest one, and I felt like the Coiler NSR I already owned was a better fit for me... and I've already mentioned that there are frequent circumstances under which other boards in my quiver provide more enjoyment and allow me to work on my technique better, than my NSR.

Accuse me of being brainwashed by Bruce all you want ;) I'm having a f'ing awesome time! If my goal were to compete in races at the highest level that I could, I might sing a different tune. Eventually... after I've seen what a USASA nationals is like for instance. I'd most likely go to that on my Coilers unless something were to change in a big way before I get there.

[ur13]

Perhaps I'm incredibly unlucky (or overly sensitive), but my concern is that it's pretty easy to put a rock through the bottom that completely ruins the board.

I guess it's the same as training on your zipps. But I'd want this high zoot board to RIDE and all the time, as opposed to a fast roadie wheelset that I save for special occasions.

(and on that front, anybody want a set of zipp 404 clinchers laced to a powertap SL and light front hub? :))

$1500 buys you a a solid wheelset (say high/mid range Campag or Shimano hubs or Phil hubs, DT Swiss pokes and Mavis Open pro Rims with Conti Gp4000 clinchers tires or some such thing) good for day to day training duty that is still open to rocks, ruts, pavement, pot-hole, and catostrophic damage. A nice tubular carbon Zipps will double to triple that, even before you add in the powertap SL.

If the wheelset analogy won't do it for you. Try getting a custom built frame under $2000...

The point is. While $1000-$1500 is alot to drop for a snowboard for most (even me) it's the price to have the latest and greatest right now and compared to other sports this level of tech comes at a small (comparatively) price.

But again...you don't need the latest and greatest bleeding edge whatever... to have fun, be a "core" rider or even ride at a high level.

[pokkis]

I've been on my NSR and custom KST build 4 weeks ago for guy my size, and i must say that difference on free carving was vey minimal, i was even surprised how minimal based on radiuses of boards. I even felt very comfy with that KST, had no probs due it felt and rode as my NSR.

So for me i rather take 2 NSR's than 2 KST, hmmm i might get new NSR very soon

BUT if i would be serious track-junkie it might be different thing. I will test that KST perhaps more during Eater if possible to really see how much they are different under my boots, for me.

[shawndoggy]

$1500 buys you a a solid wheelset (say high/mid range Campag or Shimano hubs or Phil hubs, DT Swiss pokes and Mavis Open pro Rims with Conti Gp4000 clinchers tires or some such thing) good for day to day training duty that is still open to rocks, ruts, pavement, pot-hole, and catostrophic damage. A nice tubular carbon Zipps will double to triple that, even before you add in the powertap SL.

LOL, yeah, if you pay full boat retail. DA hubs laced to open pros shouldn't cost more than $400 anywhere. Srsly, I've got a deal for you UR13, if you'd pay that much for zipps -- "old mold" (undimpled) 404 clinchers laced to PT SL with about 300 miles on 'em... yours for $1500 shipped! Will even throw in a barely used pair of corsa evo cx's and latex tubes.

But yes I see your point that the gear geekery can take over any sport. Bikes tend to last me longer than boards for whatever reason, even on a fully cost-amortized basis.

[Jack M]

While $1500 may not be so bad relative to sports such as cyling...

... I'm simply not sold on the idea that a Kessler or SG is going to give me enough extra enjoyment over a Coiler that it's worth spending twice as much.

Actually, if I were sure that there would be some incremental enjoyment over a Coiler I might take the plunge. But I'm just not convinced. I *have* ridden a Kessler KST, admittedly not a latest and greatest one, and I felt like the Coiler NSR I already owned was a better fit for me... and I've already mentioned that there are frequent circumstances under which other boards in my quiver provide more enjoyment and allow me to work on my technique better, than my NSR.

Accuse me of being brainwashed by Bruce all you want ;) I'm having a f'ing awesome time! If my goal were to compete in races at the highest level that I could, I might sing a different tune. Eventually... after I've seen what a USASA nationals is like for instance. I'd most likely go to that on my Coilers unless something were to change in a big way before I get there.

+1. The difference (if any) is what I want to find out for myself.

The point is. While $1000-$1500 is alot to drop for a snowboard for most (even me) it's the price to have the latest and greatest right now and compared to other sports this level of tech comes at a small (comparatively) price.

Will you put a sock in it?!? Bruce can't read stuff like that!! ;)

No seriously, I think at Bruce's price point, he will continue to be comfortably employed for a long time. I think when the price crosses into four figures, even the hardcores will start turning to the classifieds and ebay. Also I think the fair comparison is to skis, not any other sport, and in that light $1500 is still a lot of money.

[Dr D]

As a committed:rolleyes: desk jockey and internet time waster, I would like to point out that the strength of this board is its diversity of OPINIONS. Its easy to log on and within a few minutes see the rather broad spectrum of people who are comitted to a narrow demographic sport. Anyone who has lurked here very long can tell you who the "pros" are and who the newbs are etc. I enjoy the comraderie of the board and that shows in my post count. I am a mediocre to poor technical carver. I like to think I can hang with anyone in an all mtn situation. I am probably somewhat of an expert in the very small group of people who ride alpine style gear in softboots.

I appreciate bordy's viewpoints and have learned a lot from his various posts over the last few years. It amazes me that we cannot look beyond our own preferences and skills long enough to appreciate input from a veteran professional.

My own recent experience with a new school board, the X3 coiler, leaves me amazed and transformed so I would have to agree with the basis of this thread. It truly is a game changer. I felt like my skills improved a full 25% almost immediately. Kudos to all those who are risking personal fortune etc to advance the tech of this sport.

We still need the old school stuff as an entry point for most newbies. Unless we can figure out how to build a custom coiler or Donek etc for $200:lurk:

[ur13]

LOL, yeah, if you pay full boat retail. DA hubs laced to open pros shouldn't cost more than $400 anywhere. Srsly, I've got a deal for you UR13, if you'd pay that much for zipps -- "old mold" (undimpled) 404 clinchers laced to PT SL with about 300 miles on 'em... yours for $1500 shipped! Will even throw in a barely used pair of corsa evo cx's and latex tubes.

But yes I see your point that the gear geekery can take over any sport. Bikes tend to last me longer than boards for whatever reason, even on a fully cost-amortized basis.

Personally. I don't like carbon rims. I ride some Phil hubs laced to Open pros for road. I even ride a handbuilt steel frame. None of it is bleeding edge tech but it costs way more than a $1500 snowboard.

And for leeding edge cycling gear. Even as a hardcore rider, not racer, a top of the line carbom frame/wheelset will last a powerful rider 2 years tops. If you race it's less....

[Jack M]

My own recent experience with a new school board, the X3 coiler, leaves me amazed and transformed so I would have to agree with the basis of this thread.

Unfortunately I don't think the X3 (nor X2) qualifies as true new school as the sidecut is single-radius.

[Dr D]

Unfortunately I don't think the X3 (nor X2) qualifies as true new school as the sidecut is single-radius.

yeah thats true enough and wierd to since I have a hell of a time riding a single radius board usually. It does however have the long rocker reverse camber nose and the dual metal. So perhaps those points are more effective changes than the sidecut.

[bumpyride]

Is anyone a cyclist here? $1500 will get you a mid-range decent wheelset, or a low end frame, or half a mid range component group. Road and mountain are in the same realms now as well.

Hell, even a top of the line composite slalom race skateboard with race trucks, bearings and wheelsets with all the cutting edge tech is around $1000-1200 for everything.

Anyone ride motorcycles here? Auto cross? Kayaks? Sailing? $1500 is a drop in a never ending bucket for those "sports".

I do remember the days of the $500 Burton complete... but those days left us a long time ago. Sure you can still buy a $500 complete snowboard...but no one wants to ride that here.

Given $1500 buys you a cutting edge, top of the line, F1 level technology (respectively) gear isn't too bad at all. Especially when we all play in a niche sport that is increasingly gear and tech driven made (mostly) by small (generally custom) manufacturers that are not making huge margins on the gear they make you (think of what it costs Burton to make the $500 complete and then the margin they make on it selling it to shops....sadly that will never be possible with alpine snowboarding).

The benefit of all this "top of the line" gear out currently is that in a few years time the bleeding edge will trickle down to more moderately priced gear. Plus you have all the demo and used gear out there to pick up at lower prices.

Sure, even when the economy is good, $1500 is pushing most people's ability to participate at the level they want too given life's complexities and responsibilities for most. But in the bigger picture $1500 is not unreasonable for the level of tech we are now able to get in our gear.

Not everyone needs the latest and greatest. The "old stuff" still "works" for most. Thinking you have to have the newest and greatest to be a "core" rider, or even a good rider, is laughable.

But it is sure nice to have it and the price is what it is. Pay to play with anything gear/tech driven...

Reply With Quote

For my $.26 worth,(that's what $.02 worth costs now) this is a goodly part of the reason we're in this whole financial mess. People pay too much for stuff. Then we have to pay more for stuff to make the stuff that ends up costing more for the stuff that we really need. You used to buy a cup of joe for $.50 (I remember when it was $.10 but that doesn't count) and then latte's came along and now a cup of joe is $2.00. Prime example of more expensive stuff causing the increase in less expensive stuff.

Now I'm not faulting the board builders, they have to pay for the material stuff and the labor stuff in order to sell the stuff to afford to have stuff. I have stuff, and rationalize the stuff that I have as needed stuff, but I don't have stuff just to have stuff because I would have to work more and produce more stuff to afford the stuff that's too expensive and stuff I just don't need.

Look at the housing market. Bigger houses with too much fancy stuff drives up the prices on all the little houses with not much stuff. Does a family of 4 really need a 3500 sq.ft. house filled with stuff? Society tells us we have to have the really nice stuff and everyone wants the stuff that we don't have to have. Live within your means and a little smaller footprint maybe things would get back to a normal keel. Speaking of keels, does a person really need that big fancy sailboat with all that stuff.

So quit buying expensive stuff just to get that little extra "bling" so that all the stuff goes back down to a reasonable level. How much extra material stuff actually goes into a 8lb. snowboard compared to an "Old School" 8 lb. snowboard. I know more stuff goes into it and the stuff costs more, but that's the point. If everything was not so "having nice stuff" dependent raw materials would go down.

How about car stuff. Holy crap you can buy a decent safe care with most stuff in it for $10k new. so why do you need to spend $40k on the same size car with about the same amount of stuff (though more expensive stuff). Does amount spent on stuff dictate relative happiness.

Question: How much extra is a 2500 lb.Mercedes Z class (I don't know my classes) with all that expensive stuff worth when compared to a 2500 lb Chevy Impala when the it's crushed at the scrap yard?

Again I'm not blaming builders, but all this stuff ends up costing us our happiness stuff, and you can't put a price on that.

I'm starting to feel like Andy Rooney, except I trim my eyebrows.

[carvedog]

For my $.26 worth,(that's what $.02 worth costs now) this is a goodly part of the reason we're in this whole financial mess. People pay too much for stuff. .......

I know we have some thread drift going, but I didn't see this coming.

The 'stuff' makes me think more of Carlin than Rooney. Although the slightly whiny tone is more Rooney.

What we really need to have happen is for everyone to buy more stuff.

Everyone stopping to buy stuff is why we are here ( uninformed and poorly founded view of world financial situation) in the first place.

With that attitude no one should ever spend more than 26 cents for a disc of software.

Not the "thing" that is being sold as much as the path to get there.

[ur13]

For my $.26 worth,(that's what $.02 worth costs now) this is a goodly part of the reason we're in this whole financial mess. People pay too much for stuff. Then we have to pay more for stuff to make the stuff that ends up costing more for the stuff that we really need. You used to buy a cup of joe for $.50 (I remember when it was $.10 but that doesn't count) and then latte's came along and now a cup of joe is $2.00. Prime example of more expensive stuff causing the increase in less expensive stuff.

Now I'm not faulting the board builders, they have to pay for the material stuff and the labor stuff in order to sell the stuff to afford to have stuff. I have stuff, and rationalize the stuff that I have as needed stuff, but I don't have stuff just to have stuff because I would have to work more and produce more stuff to afford the stuff that's too expensive and stuff I just don't need.

Look at the housing market. Bigger houses with too much fancy stuff drives up the prices on all the little houses with not much stuff. Does a family of 4 really need a 3500 sq.ft. house filled with stuff? Society tells us we have to have the really nice stuff and everyone wants the stuff that we don't have to have. Live within your means and a little smaller footprint maybe things would get back to a normal keel. Speaking of keels, does a person really need that big fancy sailboat with all that stuff.

So quit buying expensive stuff just to get that little extra "bling" so that all the stuff goes back down to a reasonable level. How much extra material stuff actually goes into a 8lb. snowboard compared to an "Old School" 8 lb. snowboard. I know more stuff goes into it and the stuff costs more, but that's the point. If everything was not so "having nice stuff" dependent raw materials would go down.

How about car stuff. Holy crap you can buy a decent safe care with most stuff in it for $10k new. so why do you need to spend $40k on the same size car with about the same amount of stuff (though more expensive stuff). Does amount spent on stuff dictate relative happiness.

Question: How much extra is a 2500 lb.Mercedes Z class (I don't know my classes) with all that expensive stuff worth when compared to a 2500 lb Chevy Impala when the it's crushed at the scrap yard?

Again I'm not blaming builders, but all this stuff ends up costing us our happiness stuff, and you can't put a price on that.

I'm starting to feel like Andy Rooney, except I trim my eyebrows.

If we are going to get this philosophical here maybe we should all open our copies of these books and start the debate.