Is it skill or snow conditions??

[Bullwings]

I recently had the best carving day of my life ever on hardboots and a tanker 192. Since then, i've gone out riding on the same exact setup two other days in less than stellar conditions.

Best day carving conditions:

-24 inches of new snow about 1 day before i went out riding

-packed powder groomed to perfection

-temperatures around 25-30F

-snow particles extremely fine and never turned to water on my board while riding the chair up

-sunny day, clear blue skies, unlimited visibility

Last two sessions of carving:

-Temperatures up to around 58F by 10:30

-early morning, extremely hard packed due to high temps of the day before

-snow consistency, granular and slushy. ride up chair lift turns "snow" to slush and water that slide off of my top sheet when i lift the board up

-also sunny days, clear blue skies, unlimited visibility

Anyway, on my best day, i was able to go down black runs and carve them the WHOLE way down and put in more turns on the run than i ever have before. On blue runs that normally pushed me to right around where my skill level was, i found that i was bleeding off too much speed in the run with all the super tight arced turns i was making. I was getting a lot lower than i normally due and feeling my knee dragging every now and then (hardly ever happens). It seemed like everything i did the edge would hook in and slice the snow like butter. I could turn on a dime. It felt like all my bad technique magically disappeared. Everything about that day was perfect. The hero groom lasted about 2 hours, and even when it was gone, the snow was still so friendly anyway. The snow took everything i threw at it and always held me up right and didn't wash me out. i had never carved so hard in my life. My body seemed to agree 5 days after since my back was still sore and tight (legs were only sore for about 2 days).

The following two trips out were ok, but i think that magical day spoiled me. The snow is what i described above - extremely icy for about an hour, then 1.5 hours of ok carving conditions, then mashed potato slurpy the rest of the day. It was a lot hard to do things. It felt like what it normally feels like. It was still pretty good though since it seems like in my head i've definitely improved since the last times i was on hardboots.

So, is it skill or snow conditions? obviously it's both, but which is more? btw, is that why all you Colorado carvers and the EC guys riding up in the Alps look so damn good in your videos?

I'm going to say 60% snow and 40% skill. I felt like a superstar that day, completely unstoppable. I attribute that to the snow.

[Skwalleur]

I'd say 60-40 too, but more in favor of skill...

[SWriverstone]

I think the surface makes a huge difference. Like you Bullwings, I carved better than I ever have in my life for the whole week I was at SES in Aspen. And that's because—given my current ability—it was the first time I felt like I could rely completely on the snow to hold my edge...and that was sheer joy. It was incredible. I could really relax, let loose, unwind, and push myself and the board like I never have before. (Which in turn improved my skills.)

But of course there are plenty of hardcore carvers here with high standards who would say "If your skills are complete, you can shred on any surface, even solid, glistening-wet ice!" (And the poll so far supports this.)

But here's the rub: what if one doesn't want to carve on solid ice? (I don't.) Does that mean my skills will never be complete? Or does that mean my skills will be complete for a given surface type?

I think everyone decides for themselves how wide a range of conditions they want to be good on. Admittedly, the better we get, the more we're able to carve in lousy conditions...but why do it? Isn't that kinda like forcing yourself to ride your bike 25 miles every time it's pouring rain outside? (In other words, sure you can do it...but is it as fun?)

Scott

[lamby]

The condition of the snow is a huge factor, but higher skill levels allow one to enjoy a wider range of conditions. "Hero snow" makes everything so much easier. When the snow is perfect you could probably leave ditches with a soft set up on a lunch tray. I love it when the snow is awesome. When conditions are less than ideal they can still be extremely satisfying to ride plates on. When conditions get even more challenging it can be fun too. Variable conditions (scraped off groom/ice/other conditions) find me working on my patience. If I take my time and work on riding in those conditions I find that it pays off. I might not be having the time of my life that day, but I'm finding other aspects of the experience to enjoy. And, when I'm up the next time I may find that I'm stronger and better at this than I was the last time I was out.

[queequeg]

The condition of the snow is a huge factor, but higher skill levels allow one to enjoy a wider range of conditions. "Hero snow" makes everything so much easier. When the snow is perfect you could probably leave ditches with a soft set up on a lunch tray. I love it when the snow is awesome. When conditions are less than ideal they can still be extremely satisfying to ride plates on. When conditions get even more challenging it can be fun too. Variable conditions (scraped off groom/ice/other conditions) find me working on my patience. If I take my time and work on riding in those conditions I find that it pays off. I might not be having the time of my life that day, but I'm finding other aspects of the experience to enjoy. And, when I'm up the next time I may find that I'm stronger and better at this than I was the last time I was out.

I couldn't agree more! I try to ride in every condition possible, and learn as much about carving in adverse conditions as I can. I can use all the help I can get, it seems like every day I ride, I have to remember how to carve all over again my first couple of runs (even on hero groom, which honestly feels pretty unfamiliar every time I'm on it) but I usually have it hooked up in a few runs. Notably: I take many of bus trips, so I don't really have the option of packing it in early and heading home most of the time ... so if it sucks, I just ride it out. When it's really really awful I might have a very tough time, and my ego may take some bumps and bruises - but I learn. I don't mind eating a lot of humble pie as long as I'm learning, because at the end of the day, I'm a better rider than I started out as that day.

But here's the rub: what if one doesn't want to carve on solid ice? (I don't.) Does that mean my skills will never be complete? Or does that mean my skills will be complete for a given surface type?

I have actually had some tremendously fun times carving on Ice. I'm not excellent at it, and I screw up plenty - but there is just something in the joy and giggle factor about railing it on the ice ... it feels like you're getting away with something. Would I rather be on Hero snow? Hells yeah! Would I rather be at work? Hells no! What if one doesn't want to carve on ice? Well then, Don't. But I can't think of a better way to hone your technique than riding on difficult conditions that reward precise technique and expose flaws. And those kinds of lessons will affect your riding in all conditions and turn up the fun factor on all days, regardless of the snow conditions.

Ice is one of the best teachers out there. I never much got the point of angulation until I tried it on an icy, icy day, and discovered that suddenly I could carve again. I spent the rest of the day giggling my brains out, and actually looking for the icy patches so I could try out my newly acquired skills on them. Ice is a very supportive carving surface, once you learn how to set your edges in effectively - its hard! I can't always carve on ice, but I always try. And the more I try, the more I learn. The more I learn, the more fun I have.

[Corey]

... so if it sucks, I just ride it out. When it's really really awful I might have a very tough time, and my ego may take some bumps and bruises - but I learn. I don't mind eating a lot of humble pie as long as I'm learning, because at the end of the day, I'm a better rider than I started out as that day.

100% agree! I didn't think of it before but I definitely started on the path to becoming a better rider when I decided to tough out a really crappy/icy day. I really focused on technique and slowed right down. At first it was almost like some kind of self-punishment but all of a sudden things started to click that hadn't made sense before.

Of course, I've also learned as much on hero snow days when you can push your limits. I think I enjoy the learning process almost as much as the snowboarding. :)

[Helmut Karvlow]

Hero snow just lets you get away with mistakes other conditions would punish you for.

Skill, Skill, Skill.

[James Ong]

Does anything happen in a vacuum?

Of course one thing has something to do with the other, the ratio will vary with your ability.

This poll is to say the least "funny":lol:

Don't see how quantifying this is in any way useful, on the other hand it gives people a chance to say how badass they are on ice:lurk:

Season must be winding down for you, on the other hand we just got 3 feet of snow. yeehaaaa!!!

[SWriverstone]

So...this sounds like a sarcastic, joke question...but I'm really serious:

Is it theoretically possible (if you're good enough) to rail EC turns on 100% solid ice? I'm talking about a hockey rink tilted at a 45-degree angle...not "kinda, sorta like ice" but pure, glistening-wet ice.

Never mind that a ski slope isn't like a tilted hockey rink...it's a hypothetical question, remember? :)

Scott

[Loc]

Does anything happen in a vacuum?

Of course one thing has something to do with the other, the ratio will vary with your ability.

This poll is to say the least "funny":lol:

Don't see how quantifying this is in any way useful, on the other hand it gives people a chance to say how badass they are on ice:lurk:

Season must be winding down for you, on the other hand we just got 3 feet of snow. yeehaaaa!!!

3ft and more coming. Booyeaaaaa ;)

Anyways, as a newbie I have to say the snow has a bigger effect on me right now. Hero snow gives me a lot more confidence to practice angulation, inclination, boot cuff reaching, pencil pinching, looking uphill, etc.

[Bullwings]

You guys talk about icy not being a problem, and i agree. I deal with icy hard pack for the first 1.5 hours. You really get to work on things and it's fun. Speed builds up really fast and you have to really crank those carves in to keep things under control. movements need to be precise and spot on to get the edge to cut into the ice too. It's still enjoyable and great for working on technique.

however, what i'm complaining about is slurpy slush. that's normally what we deal with for the majority of the day here in SoCal. with temperatures reaching 55-60F, i wouldn't call it snow or ice. It's literally that stuff you'd pick up at seven-eleven and sip through a straw - sluuurrpeeee. Try carving on that stuff. the stuff is so soft that you leave trenches like a foot deep. also, good luck not washing out and getting it to hold your weight, and don't push to hard either, unless you wanna fold the nose and break your leg.

i'll see if i can get a picture of that up.

[Dave ESPI]

snow conditions are more a factor IMHO.

We all WANT it to be "skill" but lets face it, we look better and ride better in good prime conditions condusive to setting edges and forgetting about the worry of loss of edge while in the middle of a face plant or ass slide on the snow for a few split seconds before we stand the board back up.

We can't ride exactly the same way in ALL conditions. Riding hero groom versus loose pow or on boilerplate, it is similar technique but vastly different results, speeds, and angles at which we can "push" with confidence. Having been in al the possible conditions and beig an accomplished rider with a vast set of skills that Ive learned over the years I can honestly say that I have my fave conditions in which I really shine and the skill gets pushed hard to make it look awesome, and there are other days where no matter how hard I push muself, the skill is there, but the conditions are not, and I wipe out, or just am a mess in form.

When in doubt, I just ease off and ride comfortable and "Safe" to ensure another day of riding and return home unbroken..... THAT is where skill comes into play.

[Bullwings]

I'll take boiler plate any day. I'd actually be happy with boiler plate for the entire 8am-1pm riding that i normally do. As it stands, i'll ride whatever is up on the mountain, at 175 miles round trip to my local mountain, i'm not wasting gas and going up for nothing.

And yes, i agree with the others that riding variable conditions does make you a better rider. I can see that when I ride with the other hardboot locals here in the same exact conditions, and there is a definitive difference in our skill levels whatever the conditions - other conditions just make it a lot more obvious...

anyway, here's some of that mashed potato slurpy i'm talking about. check out that the size of that trench, that's how soft the snow is. also, look at how clumpy it is. that's what mountain temp of 58F does to the "snow"

anyway, i'll take any set of conditions over that. point being that skill always makes a difference, but for me it seems that snow conditions affect my riding more than anything else. on my best day, it felt like i was cheating. i don't know how to describe it except that it was too easy. it left me wondering what the hell i'd been doing all that time before that.

Maybe it's because i'm just barely an intermediate carver that snow conditions affect me so much. Probably as I progress, skill will be more of a factor and snow conditions less, but as it stands now, it's all in the hands of the snow goddess for me.

[SWriverstone]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me if they can carve on pure, wet ice.

:D

The way some folks talk around here you'd think it's a piece of cake.

Scott

[ur13]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me if they can carve on pure, wet ice.

:D

The way some folks talk around here you'd think it's a piece of cake.

Scott

"ice" is relative to where you come from it seems. What passed for "icey" at Whistler on my recent trip would be "hero snow" in Vermont or New York.

In my mind, "ice" is that stuff you can see your reflection in or the dirt/grass under it. Everything else is just hard snow.

"chalk", that stuff that looks (and feels) like white sandstone, is often called "ice", but it is simply hard snow.

That being said, ice is carveable with the right slope (for most, me included). The steeper it gets the more your margin for error and/or sloppy technique closes.

So, in my mind, it mostly comes down to skill. Maybe 75/25 skill/snow. A good rider can adapt to any terrain/conditions and ride accordingly. Hero snow is named just for that, it makes everyone a hero.

[BulletProof]

Hesitated for a split second, SKILL.

With proper training and skill, you'll enjoy riding whatever the conditions.

The problem lies in attaining skill when the conditions are crap.

ie:

Lets get used to this new board and bindings on rock hard icy slopes covered in frozen golf balls with a bunch of spring break tourist littering the slopes.

Are you seriously going to enjoy your day in these conditions? You'd have to be Mr. Uber Carver with plenty of experience under your belt.

I'm the type that will go carving whatever the weather, at least to get a descent workout, but I'll call it quits when the going gets too dangerous for me or the idiots on the slopes.

I pray to reach the hill with freshly groomed hardpack, cold enough to keep the snow loose and fluffy (not to mention keeping the tourists off the slopes).

[Bullwings]

What about soft slurpy slush and +50F degree weather?

Everyone seems to think only hero groom and ice are the only two conditions... I'd be happy if that's what my carving days consisted of.

[carvedog]

I avoid ice.

Much rather ride the foot deep slushies and do standup carves than ride the ice. It becomes more or a push pull cross under type carve that is still really fun. And you get to do surfer style slashes that throw wanna be slurpees everywhere.

I don't know if I could lay it out Ec style on the ice. Hope i don't ever have to find out.

[ohiomoto]

The better your skills, the less the snow matters.

For me, I need snow closer to "hero" snow to rail nice arcs all day long on my alpine board. But on skis, I prefer really, really, hard snow like the chalk that ur13 described. Everyone I know calls it "ice" but that stuff is fast and it gives you the strongest edge hold I've every had. Hopefully I'll be able to carve it really well on my board some day.

[SWriverstone]

The problem lies in attaining skill when the conditions are crap.

ie:

Lets get used to this new board and bindings on rock hard icy slopes covered in frozen golf balls with a bunch of spring break tourist littering the slopes.

Are you seriously going to enjoy your day in these conditions? You'd have to be Mr. Uber Carver with plenty of experience under your belt.

Thank you! I agree.

With proper training and skill, you'll enjoy riding whatever the conditions.

I don't agree with this. This seems like saying "With enough exposure to international cuisine, you'll enjoy eating literally anything that passes your lips because your tastes will be highly cultured." We all know that's not true—there are some foods we like, and some foods we don't like and avoid. Period. Nothing wrong with that.

It's no different with carving. I can't figure out the somewhat bizarre notion that if you're good enough, you'll love carving on anything. (This seems to be a common notion around here.)

What we like or don't like—whether it be food or snow—is purely subjective and individual. There's no law that says we must like every kind of slope conditions imaginable.

I'm plenty good enough to fly a hang glider on punchy, "bullet thermal" days. But I don't like to. It's got nothing to do with skill. It has everything to do with the generally unpleasant and unpredictable nature of bullet thermals knocking you around.

Scott

[gdboytyler]

What about soft slurpy slush and +50F degree weather?

Everyone seems to think only hero groom and ice are the only two conditions... I'd be happy if that's what my carving days consisted of.

In slushy conditions, I prefer the park and halfpipe.

As to the poll question, my SWAG is 80% skill and 20% snow conditions. An excellent rider will look good on slush and boilerplate and everything in between.

Lesser riders only look good on hero snow.

Crappy riders will look bad during an epic day in CO.

As I've gotten better AND bought better equipment, my parameters for hero conditions have widened.

[Hotbeans]

Hero snow just lets you get away with mistakes other conditions would punish you for.

Skill, Skill, Skill.

I'm catchin' this train..

[Steve Prokopiw]

become adverse enough to warrant a higher level of strength as well as technique developed from riding in crappy conditions by choice;as a workout.That's as opposed to being forced to by mother nature:)

[BulletProof]

SWriverstone

I am a slight masochist some times.

I see enjoyment in adversity because I can think of the future and think 'I did that!'

My friend thought I had gone nuts once, top of Mt.Washington (NH), 2m whiteout near Sphinx Col 110mph winds, gusts to 130mph, had to dig in for the night (too close to cliffs). Survived the night, destroyed the loaner Mountain Hardwear expedition tent, soggy sleeping bags, we cut the winter traverse short and headed home.

It actually was the beginning of the Ice Storm... Been there, done that.

[carver]

ICE??? NO,NO,NO!!! Carvedog and I agree! You want to get hurt? I don't think so! Too many good days to go on ice! My 2 cents! Hey, I'm old and just started to get EC on the heelside and now my lefthand glove is shot now! Feels so good!