iron_butt Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 I just realized how important "upper body twist" is. still excited about that.:lol: my understanding is like this 1. glide 2. reach my front heel with my butt 3. lean and twist and stand up 4. enjoy the Gs not bad for a 1st season hardbooter, huh?:D I am so happy that I can DO it though you old carvers have TOLD a thousand times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted March 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Sorry Ken...(and that's not said sarcastically)...I try to communicate what I'm thinking. I must have done a lousy job of it, because I think you misconstrued my posts. I definitely don't think certain things are possible or not, and I'm an eternal optimist and go-getter—that's why I've gotten good at so many sports, precisely because I don't believe in limits! I've eaten crow on my "I'll never ride blacks" post. In hindsight, that was stupid. But other than that, all I do is write what I'm thinking. :) In forums like this, I guess that's not typical. I might say few people around here do much thinking based on the many 1-2 sentence posts. LOL But I know that's not the case...I suspect most people here think as much as I do, but they just don't verbalize it in forum posts. Internet forums usually have two types of posters: 20% - people who put themselves out there and are the first to express opinions, start conversations, etc. 80% - people who are "the peanut gallery" and just react to the first 20 percent's posts. I'm in the 20% category. :) Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawndoggy Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 I might say few people around here do much thinking based on the many 1-2 sentence posts. LOL But I know that's not the case...I suspect most people here think as much as I do, but they just don't verbalize it in forum posts. Growing up in the age of the Apple ][+, I was scarred for life by the command "maximum verbosity" in Zork.... Honestly, how long does it take to perform a nicely executed, laid out heelside (or purecarve rail grab or "Bomber-style" heelside or...) on steep, narrow terrain? Half a second? A second, max? I really think it's not possible to try to remember to execute a 1500 word essay during that half a second. It's all about baby steps. One thing at a time. That's why people keep it simple with stuff like "reach the boot cuff," and then "pinch the pencil," etc. If you haven't, watching yourself on video is likely to be a revelation in itself. But you are right about one thing... it DOES take work and practice to master the skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 I don't think the difficulty level of carving affects participation. Think of something like street skateboarding - you spend a LOT of time trying to learn how to ollie without rolling. Then you try it while rolling. Then you try kickflips, etc. etc. The learning curve is much harsher for that because frankly it's not as much fun as sliding down a hill, even partially in control. But yet there are hundreds of thousands of people that will be trying to master their kickflips after school (or work) today, some in a basement because of the snow outside. They have to be strongly internally motivated to stick with it to learn the basics. Another point: Ever read a snowboarding magazine article on how to do a trick? An example that stands out in my mind was for how to do a 540 spin. It was basically: 1. Find a jump 2. Go off the jump while starting to spin 3. Spin 1 and 1/2 times in the air 4. Spot your landing 5. Land centered and ride out That's a ludicrous simplification of a quite difficult thing, but they leave out the finer details that can't be expressed without a coach seeing what you're doing wrong. The articles here are similar, they give you a good basic foundation but the fine details need to be pounded out by each rider. Mostly because one rider is going to have a grossly different set of issues than the next, but partially because to describe every little aspect of a carved turn would result in a novel that no one (except for Scott and myself ;)) would want to read. If you want to read a really good book about sports psychology, check out the "Inner Game of Tennis". (I think it's by Tim Galleway, no idea how the name is actually spelled.) I don't even play tennis, but it has helped me immensely in both car racing and snowboarding. He talks a whole bunch about relying on your muscles and nervous system to figure out the finer details of a given skill, and how getting your big clumsy brain (and consequently your ego) involved is actually a slower and more error-prone process. He actually recommends distracting the brain from the activity a bit to let the body and central nervous system give it a shot on autopilot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted March 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 One anecdote, one "hearsay factoid" without actual confirmation... First, when I was actively training and racing in whitewater slalom, the (then) U.S. team coach's mantra—and standard response to just about anything—was simply, "Time in the boat." (Bill Endicott.) Someone would ask a question about conditioning, and he'd respond (smiling) "Time in the boat." Someone would comment on changing river levels affecting a course, and he'd respond (smiling) "Time in the boat." He believed the best way to learn was just by showing up at the river every day and paddling gates, period. That's not to say he didn't offer some analytics, but he always felt anything he could say was secondary to "Time in the boat." I think a large part of this is because whitewater slalom is an intensely technical sport...made even more difficult because (like surfing or sailing) the "playing field" is incredibly dynamic and always changing from one second to the next. As an aside, the greatest American slalom racer to date (and one of the greatest in the world) Jon Lugbill spent more time in the boat than anyone else. When others would be weight training or studying videos or having analytical discussions, Lugbill would be out there paddling...and it showed. ---------- The "hearsay factoid" is that I once heard (from a physical therapist) that it takes at least 10,000 repetitions for a particular set of muscle moves to become engrained in memory to the point where they are second-nature and happen automatically. Think about that: 10,000 repetitions. That's a LOT of turns on the mountain! (I'm guessing many more than anyone would ever do in a season, even carving every day.) "Time in the boat." :) Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamby Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Sometimes I find myself reading the threads about technique and equipment set up and wonder if the innumerable subtle changes in binding set ups and technique considerations are of much help to people trying to improve their riding. Maybe, maybe not, but if people have fun describing what they are trying, or thinking about, as they work on their riding then that is great. It can be fun to read those posts and chime in, or to read those posts and not chime in. Anyway, I think being stoked on this sport and striving to improve and doing a lot of riding will translate into improved riding. My wife and I took the sport up about 10 years ago. Learned on soft gear. Rode with friends who rode alpine. Rented alpine gear for a day (back when you could rent alpine gear at local shop SkiTek). Right away I dug the feeling of a carved turn. From there it has been a love affair that has seemed to have a life of its own. It is always pulling me back to the mountain. We sought out a lot of instruction where ever we could find it. Read everything we could get our hands on, took lessons (thanks Carvedog), followed better riders... All of these contributed tremendously to our riding. All very helpful. Now that things have come together for me to some degree I find myself thinking less about my technique and how to make that next turn happen. But, then again, if things don't seem to be going so smoothly I will reach back for a tip or technique consideration to work on. concentrating on one drill/idea can help me to remember how to have more fun with it all. I find it fun to read what everyone thinks and how everyone approached this cool sport. I think if you love what you are doing you are going to immerse yourself in it and get better. I agree with some of the earlier posts that it is incredibly helpful to one's riding to seek out other riders and to ride with them. Thanks for the conversations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawndoggy Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 "Time in the boat." Cyclists have a similar quote reportedly attributable to the great Eddy Merckx (the Cannibal). Q: Eddy, how should I train? A: Ride your bike. Lots. (alt: "Ride lots"). Alas, with your time in other sports, you can surely also appreciate that some people are just better athletes than others. They learn in weeks what it took you months or years. Life ain't fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted March 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Alas, with your time in other sports, you can surely also appreciate that some people are just better athletes than others. They learn in weeks what it took you months or years. Life ain't fair. Very true! And, paradoxically, what I've also noticed is this: superior athletic skills (which I don't claim to have) can get someone near the top in any given sport. But what separates the world champions from the "almost-but-not-quite World Champions" is (IMO) a total geek mindset! The champions I've known were actually the antithesis of the swaggering, superstud, look-at-me characters...they were introverted, analytical to the point of obsession, super-detail-oriented, and tended to live an ascetic, monk-like lifestyle. Though it takes athletic prowess to get close to the top, it seems to take anal-retentiveness to actually BE the top. :) Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawndoggy Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Very true! And, paradoxically, what I've also noticed is this: superior athletic skills (which I don't claim to have) can get someone near the top in any given sport. But what separates the world champions from the "almost-but-not-quite World Champions" is (IMO) a total geek mindset!The champions I've known were actually the antithesis of the swaggering, superstud, look-at-me characters...they were introverted, analytical to the point of obsession, super-detail-oriented, and tended to live an ascetic, monk-like lifestyle. Though it takes athletic prowess to get close to the top, it seems to take anal-retentiveness to actually BE the top. :) Scott Agree 100%. See masters level bicycle time trialists for a dose of max geekatude. The other thing I'd point out is that geeking out that hard can take the fun out of the sport. Being good, getting better... those things keep the sport fun. Needing to perform at absolute tip top performance at all times can be very rewarding when you are "on," but very discouraging when you are just better than average. You can prolly tell from my posts I'm a bit of a reformed bike racer, having geeked out to the point that it took over my life. There is a very special feeling to achieve that level of mastery (not that I was ever THAT good, but I had my moments), but life is more than just one thing. I think if you did live at a resort and ride every single day it would be fun... for a while. And then you'd squeeze the fun out of the sport. Well, I would, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skipsilvia Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Originally posted by shawndoggy.I think if you did live at a resort and ride every single day it would be fun... for a while. And then you'd squeeze the fun out of the sport. As someone who lived at a resort in N.H., lived close (2hrs) to the BIG 3 in Colorado, and now lives in Chicago, I would have no problem with the above scenario. Maybe I would squeeze the fun out of the sport.....after 25-30 years. That works for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted March 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 There is a very special feeling to achieve that level of mastery (not that I was ever THAT good, but I had my moments), but life is more than just one thing. I think if you did live at a resort and ride every single day it would be fun... for a while. And then you'd squeeze the fun out of the sport. Well, I would, anyway. Yeah...but the nice thing about carving is that (unless you're wealthy enough to travel south of the equator) you can't do it year-round. I was the same way about whitewater racing that you were about bicycling—for 3 years I literally paddled twice a day 5-6 days a week, all year long. (In the winter we'd not only paddle on half-frozen rivers, but indoors in a mile-long tank used by the U.S. Navy for testing ship designs.) Yeah, I burned out on it, LOL. Good thing you're carving though—there was a big article in the Washington Post recently about how doctors have discovered serious cyclists have dangerously low bone density (because cycling isn't weight-bearing enough). It seems cycle racers break bones way too easily compared to the average population... Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawndoggy Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 (In the winter we'd not only paddle on half-frozen rivers, but indoors in a mile-long tank used by the U.S. Navy for testing ship designs.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 SWriverstone; Thanks for the post i'm trying to be one of the 20 % as i seem to have an inherent dislike for authority types a post like yours is something i can relate to ,self teaching is good ! why does everthing have to be so complicated . It's also nice to have another point of view available to all on a forum like bomber. As a newbie to it I still have a thin skin but if i keep skidding it will thicken up:biggthump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted March 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 That's hardcore! Lowrider—thanks for the good words. As long we avoid name-calling and "us versus them," it's all good! Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arclite Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Get with an experienced rider. Use a good stomp pad. Start at the beginner area. Get familiar with your gear BEFORE you get to the ski area. Use a shorter, softer, wider, turnier board than what you are likely to eventually use. Pad your ass, knees , wear a well fitting helmut. Move to Colorado. Fill out your Damn CP!! Read, watch, search BEFORE you ask questions. Clean your headlights off when you fill up. Don't tailgate. Never refuse a mint. Oooops, getting carried away a bit.;) Lol! I wish I could move to Colorado..... ;) And that sounds a lot like my dad.... the driving stuff at least...and the mint... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaunconnor Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 my 10 cents worth!! got given a free carving board so with the little snow we have been getting here in the canadian rockies thought i would try to master a new sport.i have a little ski racing background and understand the carve of a ski.i started riding a carving board this winter and have had about 25 days on it.metting other carvers have helped alot so has filming me to see my weaknesses .so here goes:first guy told me to push the front knee forword and towards the turn on heal side and the the back knee back to open the space between the knees for toe side.so here i am carving "stand up turns".a few days later another guy tells me that i need to get my legs out from under me.tips were, pretend that im boarding in a room with a 5 foot ceiling[im 6 feet tall] ,do not hit that ceiling and do not bend forword at the waist but sink down using knees and waist.helped lots for the next many days.[started carving low turns on low angle slopes].then last week, met carving boarder guy #3 and did 3 runs with him.his pointers were key.on toe side instead of using my up hill hand to touch the snow lift it up in the air [armpit touchs snow later instead],drive my down hill hand ,down to my boot or board edge and drive my knees into the snow on the up hill side,wow carving a turn on black groomed run.still working on linking these steep turns but having soooo much fun trying.[words from a beginner] shaun .p.s. im riding a freesurf highlander 160cm with ski touring boots.should i upgrade and why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transistor Rhythm Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 I've learned there are a few different schools of thought about technique, and they disagree as much as they agree. It can get kind of frustrating first learning to rotate ("EC style") then to be told to stop rotating and keep your hands in front of you "(race style") and both tips coming from riders that can really rip and know what they are talking about! I say absorb it all, watch it, try it, learn it, then do what works best for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carvedog Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 I've learned there are a few different schools of thought about technique, and they disagree as much as they agree. It can get kind of frustrating first learning to rotate ("EC style") then to be told to stop rotating and keep your hands in front of you "(race style") and both tips coming from riders that can really rip and know what they are talking about!I say absorb it all, watch it, try it, learn it, then do what works best for you. I like to do all three, in the same run. I know he just said two. Just seeing if anyone is paying attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBump Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 First, I think what the OP was talking about is "feel", feeling how far you can lean the board at a given speed, the rate at which you angulate...blah blah blah. It's tough to teach, I have a few exercises for it. Alot of times a lesson on something like this, boils down to just riding with the instructor using his/her trained eye to say "on those turns you weren't getting it up on edge early enough in the turn" or "you were too extended at the finish". Those little bits of feedback can help accelerate the learning/development of board feel. As far as styles, instructors and coaches shouldn't be getting caught up in generalized "styles", they should be knowledgable about all the movement options available for making a carved turn and know what is needed to be added/taken away/modified to suit the students style. This is the difference between working with a skilled instructor or coach and someone who simply rips. In general( there are exceptions obviously) someone who rips will tell you what works for them(which may or may not help you), a solid coach will tell you what will work for you...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted March 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 First, I think what the OP was talking about is "feel", feeling how far you can lean the board at a given speed, the rate at which you angulate...blah blah blah. That's pretty much it BigBump. As you pointed out, a good coach can give you tips like "Your weight is too far forward at the end of the turn." Which is valuable...and I was trying to say in my first post that even if you get top-notch feedback from an expert coach/instructor...even if you know exactly what you need to do...it's tough to "just do it." You still need a lot of trial-and-error time, and even if you're able to make an adjustment or do something differently and it works perfectly, you'll still need a LOT of time and repetition to make it habit. And sometimes you won't get it until you've hammered away at it for a long time...until you have that "lightbulb moment" and it all comes together. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 I do agree with "time on the board", and watching advanced riders. Whenever I give tips, I try to find a couple of tid-bits that can make the most difference, then say " work on that" & I get out of the way. One tid-bit that came to mind while reading this thread is to make an effort to ride conditions & slopes above your comfort zone, then go back to easy groomers & those efforts will result in calmer more efficient movements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Haven't read through the whole thread yet but.... This subject is the whole point of The Norm, though it is not explicitly worded there like you have worded it, and it does not need to be. It is explicitly worded that way in the Physics article. Also, this concept is plainly obvious to anyone who knows how to ride a bicycle. Or for that matter, skis, or a freeride snowboard. Scott, you seem like a very nice guy. But your last... I dunno, 10 threads seem to be simply starting conversations with inane, banal questions just for the sake of starting conversations. I think you need to spend more time riding and less time thinking straight onto your keyboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWriverstone Posted March 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Aw c'mon Jack. I start threads like this because it actually gets people talking and thinking. Plenty of folks here have interesting things to say, but will never say it unless they're prompted to. And I've honestly never started a thread just for the hell of it. I care about this stuff as much as anyone! :) Heck, if you think this thread is banal, then I guess all these other current threads are too... • Home Alpine Snowboard Tuning - do you do it? • Rant: How About An Addition to the Code? (complaint about people standing in the middle of a slope) • owwwww....... (someone crashed) • Here it comes (lots of snow) • Is it skill or snow conditions?? (Sounds like one of mine, but isn't!) This isn't said at you Jack...but I'm always amazed by people who describe an Internet forum thread as stupid/banal/pointless...when fully two-thirds of every post on every forum is precisely that! I suppose we could always institute a few hard posting rules, such as... • Only post hard facts that can be independently verified. • Only post facts about events, including location, date, and time. • Only post hard technical information supported by empirical testing. Submit backing data. • Gossip is not allowed. • Opinions are not allowed. • Humor is not allowed. Gosh...if we had rules like that there would be no forum! :) Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Civ Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 ^^^post # 666 Coincidence?:angryfire:angryfire (pointless post....proves Scotts point) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arclite Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 hey SWriver dude. you've reached 666 posts! you evil little son of a... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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