Donek Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 There has been some discussion here with regard to reverse camber boards. I have discussed the subject on numerous occasions with other engineers within the industry. On Friday I took out a reverse cambered board from another manufacturer to try it, in hopes determining if I should begin prototyping. I am still on the fence about the technology, but less convinced of it's applicability to the carve industry than I was before trying it. I typically ride a 160 incline when in soft boots. I chose a board from this manufacturers line that was similar in specs and stiffness. I used my Catek Freeride bindings at the same stance width and angles I ride my incline. I took the reverse camber board out first. I took it down a nice greenish blue run for the first run down Copper. This manufacturer told me that the reverse camber would be much faster than a cambered board, but I did not feel it was any faster than a properly tuned board with camber. The board held an edge very nicely. It did lack some pop out of the turn but initiated very rapidly and easily. I tend to struggle a great deal with carving fakie, so I tried carving this board fakie and found it quite easy to do. About 2/3s of the way down the hill I found I could actually lean over the nose and carve it completely independently of the tail while skidding the tail to scrub speed. A very unusual experience, but an ability I've never experienced with another board. My second run consisted of a blue and more carving. It continued to carve nicely. The third run took us back down to center village copper. This board has different sidecut radii in the tip and tail. Due to the tighter radius in the tail, I found I could over steer the tail, making it come around faster than the shovel. It felt a lot like driving a forklift with the steering wheels in the back; a rather interesting sensation. The 4th run was under the Super B lift. I found a small patch of powder and ran the board through it. The shovel definitely had a desire to seek the surface. I wanted to find the steepest terrain on the hill that hopefully possessed some harder snow. Super B has some blacks that are typically groomed and hard by Colorado standards. On this terrain I felt very uncomfortable. I found myself hesitating and unable to link carves. The board simply did not feel stable enough between the turns to enable me to transition to the next turn. After 4 runs I got my 160 incline out and took it down the same terrain I had taken the reverse cambered board. My immediate reaction on the incline was “this is a rocket”. It became apparent to me that I had been struggling with stability the entire time I was on the reverse cambered board. I could lay the incline flat and it tracked predictably. Carves were effortless and fun. I had no problem with big wide high speed carves or short tight carves. It was like night and day. I even let it run as fast as I could to try to see if I could reproduce the uneasiness I felt with the reverse camber. I never got there. When I got it on the steep run under Super B I made some of the best turns of the day. It's important to remember that I have spent over 20 years developing boards that suit my riding style. As a result I'm unlikely to find another manufacturer's board that suits me as well. At this point I feel that there is insufficient stability in a reverse cambered design for my style. I would love to see some others who ride soft boots to run a similar side-by-side test and post their feelings on the matter. The rest of the readers here would find it helpful and the manufacturers here could benefit greatly from your feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Great write-up Sean. Thanks for your input. I'll see if I can add to it in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_roboteye Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Thanks for the writeup. None of what you said surprised me. If a board is reverse cambered, less of it will be touching the snow at any given time compared to a cambered board. I guess you would agree that the only time you would really benefit from having reverse camber is in a constant soft snow situation, a la heli-boarding or backcountry with snowmobiles or trekking etc. On hardpack it just doesn't give you a performance benefit. later, Dave R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JK moscraciun Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Great review! Most interesting and informative! Obviously stability is suffering when a board is not high on edge since the effective base on snow is so short! Question is if a dual camber style boards like Kessler's, SG. & others got the best of both world or not? > Decambered wider nose(taper) for easy turn initiation and normal negative camber under the binding for stability, grip, etc! and with the added bonus of the metal which in my opinion allowed builders to construct much, much softer malleable(read damp) boards but still retaining torsional stiffnes! Could this duality be the holly grail of a modern snowboard? Did you experimented / demoed such a board? Thank you and looking for your input! JK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yyzcanuck Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 It became apparent to me that I had been struggling with stability the entire time I was on the reverse cambered board. Did it feel like you were riding a bar of soap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donek Posted January 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Did it feel like you were riding a bar of soap? Nothing quite as bad as that. On edge the board feels fine. In between carves and running flat just felt uncomfortable. Like the board wasn't locked into the direction I was going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donek Posted January 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Great review!Most interesting and informative! Obviously stability is suffering when a board is not high on edge since the effective base on snow is so short! Question is if a dual camber style boards like Kessler's, SG. & others got the best of both world or not? > Decambered wider nose(taper) for easy turn initiation and normal negative camber under the binding for stability, grip, etc! and with the added bonus of the metal which in my opinion allowed builders to construct much, much softer malleable(read damp) boards but still retaining torsional stiffnes! Could this duality be the holly grail of a modern snowboard? Did you experimented / demoed such a board? Thank you and looking for your input! JK What do you mean by dual camber? Inka made a dual camber board that had camber under each foot. Never Summer's reverse camber actually has camber in the tip and tail (reverse between the inserts), but I thought the Kesslers had rocker in the tip and tail. Rocker is and early rise in the tip and tail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JK moscraciun Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 What do you mean by dual camber? Inka made a dual camber board that had camber under each foot. Never Summer's reverse camber actually has camber in the tip and tail (reverse between the inserts), but I thought the Kesslers had rocker in the tip and tail. Rocker is and early rise in the tip and tail. Exactly! I was talking about rocker in the tip and tail! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinterGold Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 This review is spot on for me. I have been on a Burton Hero (reverse camber called V-Rocker by Burton) and a Burton X8. Both in 155. The reverse camber board is great for powder and doing tricks on the slope like nose- and tailpresses and other stuff. But you can feel that it is not as stable as a cambered board in almost all situations. I guess that many Softboot riders don´t really care about stability and carving abilities because for 2010 Burton does have several V-Rocker boardlinies (even the Custom will be also available as a V-Rocker edition). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpenn Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 So...just out of curiosity, what are the applications for a reverse camber board? What are the manufacturers saying about where to use them? I can't imagine using them here on the ice coast - or with any speed, either. Maybe these are like the old Olin ballet skis from the 70's... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 I have had someone preach to me the perfection of a Skate Banana as an All Mountain Quiver Killer, then again they didn't have a clue about high speed carving and couldn't keep up without bombing when I was cruising on a little hill so I'm not convinced that it has any use for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinecure Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 I've ridden a carving board with recurve (rocker) in the tip - the SG version. It made it feel like riding a slightly shorter board on turn initiation yet full length when in carve (on edge). This was a nice thing. I own a pair of reverse camber, reverse sidecut skis that are amazing in powder. They are 131mm tip, 136mm underfoot and 124 tail. Its funny when you put them on edge if you don't skid them on the groomers. One or both skis can start heading off the wrong way. I'd love to see a ski and/or board with some camber underfoot and rocker/recurve in both tip and tail - tip especially. PM Gear's Lhasa Pow skis look particularly interesting. A wider version as a powder snowboard could be very cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokkis Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Sean, if i understand correctly here we talk about reverse camber board or board with small rocker in nose and tail but real camber in middle? Not full rocker board, right? I would like to say that these "extreme" boards will require lots of runs to get rael stuff out of then, as Sean indicated in his review too. Specially if one is keen to one kind of boards. Same applies when you switch form 17-18cm wide boards to 21-23 cm wide boards, it will take lots of runs to find new board behaviour before one really can get best out of them. Thanks for your review, it was cool to read from board builder point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 thought so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donek Posted January 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Sean, if i understand correctly here we talk about reverse camber board or board with small rocker in nose and tail but real camber in middle?Not full rocker board, right? I would like to say that these "extreme" boards will require lots of runs to get rael stuff out of then, as Sean indicated in his review too. Specially if one is keen to one kind of boards. Same applies when you switch form 17-18cm wide boards to 21-23 cm wide boards, it will take lots of runs to find new board behaviour before one really can get best out of them. Thanks for your review, it was cool to read from board builder point of view. This board was reverse cambered in the middle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Full rocker is a lot of fun in deep snow bumps & powder trees but is ridiculously directionless on hard pack & ice. I really don't think the trade off is worth it as cambered boards can be made to shred the pow & carve the hardpack. A cambered board with rockered tip and tail accomplishes the desired effect without losing edge hold or carvability. I would love to try a board with camber out to midway between the binders and the tip rise with slight rocker at the ends, I do think this could be the "best of both worlds". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petrol Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 I'm hopelessly lost. Can someone please draw a couple simple lines demostrating what a side view of these differant cambers look like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donek Posted January 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 I'm hopelessly lost.Can someone please draw a couple simple lines demostrating what a side view of these differant cambers look like? bottom image illustrates conventional camber. middle image illustrates reverse camber. top image illustrates rocker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Interesting - as I would expect. I haven't ridden such a board on the piste, or with soft bindings. But I did ride what I thought was a reverse-cambered board in heli powder the other week and tried to describe it here. I'm not hugely convinced by the whole concept; as I said in the review there's not a lot of camber in an old Fish, so perhaps there's not a lot of difference in practice. The new Fish have a mix of camber/ rocker I believe - I've not been able to get my bindings on those to feel it, but I've heard mixed things. In summary, I think that reverse-camber in powder is a none-event for me, although I can see lots of people are trying it. I'm kind of interested that you can carve a reverse cambered board at all, or at least I'd be surprised if it wasn't like riding a wet noodle. Perhaps that's what is described above, really. I was kind of using the surf definition of rocker, which is hard to distinguish from reverse camber. How should we use it precisely for snowboards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 I'm sorry, I'm confused - the top image looks like conventional camber to me, just more of it than the bottom image and with a more gradual nose profile. I have always thought of rocker as the same as reverse camber only more so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donek Posted January 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 I'm sorry, I'm confused - the top image looks like conventional camber to me, just more of it than the bottom image and with a more gradual nose profile. I have always thought of rocker as the same as reverse camber only more so. If you look closely, you'll notice that the tip and tail begin to rise off the ground much closer to the wait of the board. I've stretched the image vertically to emphasize this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 If you look closely, you'll notice that the tip and tail begin to rise off the ground much closer to the wait of the board. I've stretched the image vertically to emphasize this.OK, so what you call rocker is truly only useful off the groom, otherwise it's just riding a short effective edge with a lot of useless weight on the tip and tail, correct? Or is the transition subtle enough that the edge increases as you lay it over? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 OK, so that supports the latter statement - as the board is laid over, the rockered edge engages the snow. I understand now, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 I've always thought of it as "less effective base, same effective edge" as a design without the rockered nose. Several of my boards have this in varying degrees... longer boards have more... and what I find is that skidding (as in hard skidding to a stop) is remarkably easy and safe, and I experience smoother entry to carved turns, even when done so very aggressively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Have ridden double camber asym off and on and have found it very stable on flat and through transition had asked Bruce V about it he said ne hadn't built or ridden one would love to try and talk him into it . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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