Help (Floundering at Copper)

[GremUSA]

Hi all, I live in the midwest and get about 2 weeks a year on my board. I'm having some difficulty this week at Copper and would love anyone's experience/advice/compassion, etc.

First, I realize my difficulties lie with pure attrition; I don't do this enough where carving technique feels natural. But I'm wondering if perhaps my setup isn't correct.

In a nutshell I feel like I'm fighting the stance of my boots, particularly rear - meaing I want to move my legs and feet way different than the current position of the boots will allow - the stance feels really unnatural.

(Quick stats: Rossi 165 dualtec, Raichle123, TD2 step in, Regular stance, 3°, 3°, 50°, 50°, I'm 5'10", 190).

By the end of the day yesterday my shins hurt so bad just because I feel like I was fighting my boots and position. My cants are parallel with the length of the board, front toe lift, rear heel raised as is my understanding of how it's supposed to be set for a starting point.

I was thinking of turning the cants more in direction of the boot angles - that's my interpretation of correcting the problem (or what of a 6° rear?). My rear foot really feels like it wants a less steep angle but my understanding is you don't want it much less than 50° lest the boot drag (although my carves don't even come close to where that's an issue).

So that's it in a nutshell, I would love anyone's advice on playing with the cants and boot angles. I'm at Copper until Wednesday, 7th - feel free to call as well and thank you ahead for your help,

GM Reszel, 260-760-5499

[Mr. T]

Proceed immediately to the Copper ski school desk and ask for Sean Mccarron, don't let his smell or wily accent scare you. He is a great hardboot instructor and will provide you with all sorts of good info. As far as setup, start by checking out your stance width, initially don't go much wider than the width that you end up at jumping up and down off the board. Next I would suggest more angulation on the front foot vs. the rear, also try the canting in a different position to achieve more of a toe / heel lift respecively and see if that has any effect. It's not uncommon to feel restricted the first days on a hardboot setup. Also bring a tool with you when you go to the hill so you can stop and adjust if it feels like a change is needed. Good luck and keep at it.

[fin]

Also, adjust your boot forward lean. I have seen SO many issues with the way gear feels and it came down to crazy forward lean positions. What are you at on the boots now?

Also, Sean has not made it in the country yet (as far as we know as of today). However, there is another instructor at Copper named Richard Knapp and he is a rock star on plates. Ask for him and tell him Bomber sent you his way.

And stop by our shop in Silverthorne anytime and we can look at your setup as well.

[Dan]

Grem, I agree with Mr T's advice on board setup.

Check your stance, make sure it's not too wide or narrow. (around shoulder width is a good starting point; Mr. T's advice about jumping and seeing how far apart your feet are spread when you land also sounds reasonable.)

I do <b>not</b> agree that your cants should be set up parallel to the board; try setting them up so the tilt is parallel to the fore/aft axis of your feet (i.e., a line connecting your toes to your heel on each foot).

As far as wanting a lower angle on your back foot, as long as the boot doesn't overhang the board at heel or toe, there's no reason not to go to a lower angle. Once you have your back foot set so the boot is just within the edge of the board, set your front foot a bit steeper than that. Conventional wisdom is that you should have about 5 degrees of splay (i.e., front about 5 degrees steeper than back), but I find that I typically want more than that, on the order of 10 or 15 degrees. This probably doesn't help my technique, but it feels natural/comfortable to me, so whatcha gonna do.

Good luck! Hardboot lessons are a nice option to have -- not so easy to find, so it might be worthwhile to take advantage of the opportunity.

[GremUSA]

Thanks T and Fin for the responses. Fin I might just drive to Silverthorne today. Currently my front boot leans to the rear and rear boot leans forward - that was my understanding of how it should be set.

I would love to support the Copper ski school and I'm sure that'd be the ticket. Unfortunately, this financially struggling luthier has to seek more economical solutions (for this trip anyway).

It's about noon, Fin I'm coming to visit.

[GremUSA]

Great advice (as per usual of this board); thanks Dan and all.

[Gecko]

I have found that cants work better as just lifts. Cant gives me serious shin bang in the front. At this point after messing with all the choices on my OS1's I am at 3* toe lift in the front and about 4* heel lift in the back no cant. No question my next set of bindings will be TD's.

[Pat Donnelly]

http://www.alpinecarving.com/tmtd2/

[DiveBomber]

Try riding flat in front and more heel lift, been your knees, look where the board is going, be aggressive, try to reach across your body on heel sides and keep your front hand on the heel side of the board on toe sides.

[GremUSA]

Thanks Divebomb, Pat and Gecko. I just realized I'm confusing cant with lift . Thanks for the tweakomatic Pat - now I'm getting the cant picture.

[GremUSA]

Try riding flat in front and more heel lift, been your knees, look where the board is going, be aggressive, try to reach across your body on heel sides and keep your front hand on the heel side of the board on toe sides.

As I recall my technique, I realize I haven't been bending my knees enough and I think I'm doing just the opposite with my arms - I think I got that from the early days when someone told me to point with your leading arm the direction you want to go.

Today was a rest day, more R&D tomorrow (Tues).

[DiveBomber]

As I recall my technique, I realize I haven't been bending my knees enough and I think I'm doing just the opposite with my arms - I think I got that from the early days when someone told me to point with your leading arm the direction you want to go.

Today was a rest day, more R&D tomorrow (Tues).

pretend you are riding a sport bike, tucked behind the windscreen, as for hand, and bending the knees, do you know how to counter steer a motorcycle?

[GremUSA]

,,,as for hand, and bending the knees, do you know how to counter steer a motorcycle?

Do you mean like in flat track where where you turn into the skid?

[DiveBomber]

Do you mean like in flat track where where you turn into the skid?

not exactly, like on a sport bike, where you are not pulling the bike into the turn, but you are pushing down on the inside(of the turn) handlebar, same thing in a lot of ways, get your weight more forward, and push into the turn.

you know, it is a lot like riding a sport bike! flat track would be if you want to skid the tail on purpose

[Mr. T]

If you have a bit of time tonight, before going to the hot tub, crack open a beer or three, put your board down on the leaopord skin rug in front of the fireplace at the condo, and clip in. Try and make sure that your set up is comfortable in a static setting. Try this before having too many beers. Try out some different angulations and see what feels awkward and what doesn't. If you have been to see Fin today you probably already feel awkward, but beer will help.

What I was triing to convey in my earlier post about canting was I think was made more clear by others, try and set it so that the canting is only lifting your front toe and raising your rear heel as opposed to laterally angulating either boot towards the nose or tail of the board.

I like the steer the motorcycle analogy, but I'm not sure i would get so caught up in the coutersteer thought.

While on the board, trashing the condo rug, get a feeling for how the motorcycle steer translates to rotational pressure on the boot. Also notice that the more your legs are bent the sooner the rotational force is felt.

For getting turns initiated think also of using your lead knee to steer you into the turn and get pressure on your front boot cuff, sort of a lateral movement for heelsides, more of a bend/flex for toeside.

Now go to the hot tub and dream of Andy's Encore at Copper.

[GremUSA]

,,,Try out some different angulations and see what feels awkward and what doesn't. If you have been to see Fin today you probably already feel awkward, but beer will help.

I didn't realize bomber was closed today but Fin was very helpful on the phone and talked about what you mention above, the 'home' position which I will try tonight along with some Negras.

...For getting turns initiated think also of using your lead knee to steer you into the turn and get pressure on your front boot cuff, sort of a lateral movement for heelsides, more of a bend/flex for toeside.

Now go to the hot tub and dream of Andy's Encore at Copper.

There's a lot in your post and I really appreciate it, I'm going to Bomber in the morning then I'll head out and give it my best. Currently trying Andy's, Moz, Copperfield and Soliliquy when I'm smart enough to slow it down.

Many thanks to all, I really appreciate it,

GM Reszel

[Hotbeans]

I was lucky enuf to spend a morning w/ Sean McCaren at Copper last year. That guy would figure it out for you in about the first 5 seconds on the lift up.

From what I remember, he said that having a 15 degree diff between front/rear was normal for some and not a problem. As a matter of fact, that's what he suggested to me. It helped tremendously in stability and turn initiation. Also, my inseam is 30" and I had about a 19" stance. I narrowed it upon his suggestion and THAT helped a bunch too.

Bola at allboardsports has some great advice on how to get cant/lift dialed in based on what kind of feedback you're getting.

I can't pretend to have absorbed all of their suggestions accurately, so I'll leave it up to you to contact them and let them help you.

[GremUSA]

I was lucky enuf to spend a morning w/ Sean McCaren at Copper last year. That guy would figure it out for you in about the first 5 seconds on the lift up,,,

Bola at allboardsports has some great advice on how to get cant/lift dialed in,,,I can't pretend to have absorbed all of their suggestions accurately, so I'll leave it up to you to contact them and let them help you.

After tomorrow I probably won't get back to Copper this season but I'll be in Snowmass in late Feb (too late for SES) and perhaps I'll seek some expert help at that time. Anyone have suggestions for Snowmass carving pedagogues?

Meanwhile tomorrow a.m. I'll check in with Fin and btw this post has been most helpful for technique ideas: http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=23482

Experts run this forum and its posters know their stuff, thank you so much.

[Pat Donnelly]

What are your dates?

pdwlc at yahoo.com

[yyzcanuck]

you know, it is a lot like riding a sport bike! flat track would be if you want to skid the tail on purpose

To make a motorcyle turn, regardless of surface conditions, counter-steering works. It's especially effective in flat track. I just don't see how this analogy works for alpine snowboarding. What am I missing?

[Guest shrederjen]

After you get your stance all worked out....

Try www.bungapads.com

A little bit of silicone on the shin bone does wonders!!!

I use the ones that are not sticky and just put them under my socks.

[boarderboy]

I had no idea what a luthier was until one of your posts last season (with a beautiful shot of one of your builds, as I remember.)

Same thing with "somalier" (sp?) with apologies to Jim Callen.

Scarey what you can learn around this place if you hang long enough.

If your hardbooting becomes half as great as your woodcraft, you're gonna be one awesome snowboarder.

Used to be a terrific hardboot instructor @ Buttermilk. Forget his name, but he'd worked @ Okemo back east and was about five feet tall - fully booted up. Also spoke Russian pretty well.

If he's still around when you visit Snowmass, I highly recommend his instruction.

Best of luck

[carvedog]

To make a motorcyle turn, regardless of surface conditions, counter-steering works. It's especially effective in flat track. I just don't see how this analogy works for alpine snowboarding. What am I missing?

Nothing. It doesn't really apply at all, since we have no rotating centripetal forces or are able to articulate the nose separately. Apologies to Boardski on the HyArc, but most of us can't.