Liner question

[aeronaut]

Greetings,

I've got a pair of UPZ RSV Mach superlights (red ones, from the end of the 2006-7 season. Already did the t-nut mod, but using different parts - never had to drill the boots.) Went to put them on to get ready for one day of riding, and the foot pain was pretty intense, so I bailed on them and went with my softies.

Looked at it later, and discovered the problem. The original liner had folded a bit right under the large leather patch on the outside of the ankle. The fold put a lot of pressure on my foot. Pulling up the liner (hard) solved the problem.

However, even with that, the boots aren't that comfortable. I have a custom footbed (surefoot,) and they should fit pretty well. But I can't imagine spending an hour in them, let alone a day.

Is this normal for hardboots? Should I lower my expectations? Or would a custom moldable liner improve things? I did the finger test with the liners out, and came up with two fingers even between my heel and the back of the boot.

And if I were to consider a liner, is there any consensus here as to whether the intuition, or the Deeluxe moldable is better? The Deeluxe (sold here,) seems considerably cheaper. If I go with an intuition, which one would be best, and what's the best source for them?

Any advice and input appreciated.

Regards,

Martin

[KingCrimson]

No clue on what your tolerance of foot discomfort is, but with non-moldable liners, the first day can just plain suck.

Take some advil and suck it up, and see how they feel after a few days.

[BobD]

However, even with that, the boots aren't that comfortable. I have a custom footbed (surefoot,) and they should fit pretty well. But I can't imagine spending an hour in them, let alone a day.

Is this normal for hardboots? Should I lower my expectations? Or would a custom moldable liner improve things? I did the finger test with the liners out, and came up with two fingers even between my heel and the back of the boot.

Regards,

Martin

No, it's not normal. New liners should be extra snug to start with, but not painfully so. If you have average feet, you should be able to get a tight, but comfortable fit at home assuming the shell is the right size. It does sometimes take some playing around to get it right. Try them without the any footbeds and with stock footbeds. you should be able to figure out what's causing the discomfort. If you can't get them comfortable yourself, then you should see a bootfitter. Most of the discomfort issues I have ever had, have been footbed related. Thermomoldable liners will give you a better fit and accomadate minor irregularities of your feet, but may not solve your problem.

BobD

[carvedog]

.......But I can't imagine spending an hour in them, let alone a day.

Is this normal for hardboots? Should I lower my expectations? Or would a custom moldable liner improve things? I did the finger test with the liners out, and came up with two fingers even between my heel and the back of the boot.

Don't know what is normal anymore. But I will tell you about my sitch.

I run Burton Fires. I am used to them. They work. I don't break them often. They are produced by the anti-Christ. Oh well.

After going through four pairs of zip fits in about 10 years. All with diminishing level of quality and durability, I thought I should begin to look around. I tried one of the heat wrap foam Thermo-something and felt like I was in softies again.

( This was several years ago and I understand there have been significant changes since but can only relate my experience. Also understand that I flux from 235 to 255 before gear and I need the support in the foot.)

Got a new pair of Fires and thought I would try the stock liner with my good foot bed. It was excruciating. I thought I was going to have to get a ride down in a sled I was in so much pain.

Went to a new bootfitter ( instead of the zip fit guys since they were still pimping something that plain old sucked IMHO). He set me up with some conformables molded around my good footbed.

And Happiness reigned through the Valley again. First day I rode for three hours + with no pain. It did feel good to loosen buckles during the day.

Day two I think I rode five or six hours with no pain.

This was four or five years ago. I am getting about 50 to 60 days in my boots per year and I can see no noticeable wear or tear.

I do put them on a low temp, high air flow heater at night. I think taking the liners in and out a lot can cut down on longevity. Cuz they are so damn hard to get in and out with all the extra spaces filled in with foam.

But they work for me and I wouldn't hesitate to buy them again.

Not a cheap investment. Find someone good. Go slow. Wear them some at home before injecting for a tighter fit.

Good luck.

[tex1230]

The stock liners in my UPZ RTRs were horrible and painful. I got rid of them and got Dalbello Golds at Startingate before my first day of riding. Ditch the stock liners and get to a bootfitter. save your nickels though - it can be a little pricey (I think they were about $200)

[bobdea]

I put foam injection liners in my UPZs and had them injected at the starting gate.

best SNOWBOARD SPECIFIC boot I've owned as far as fit goes.

You can either get the foam injection liners from Dan Yoja of UPZ for about $300(that's a steal BTW, other injection liners start at $400) or go to a high end ski shop and get a pair of conformambles or something similar. You will need a good shop to do your injection because if it's screwed up your boots will blow.

[queequeg]

The stock liners in my UPZ RTRs were horrible and painful. I got rid of them and got Dalbello Golds at Startingate before my first day of riding. Ditch the stock liners and get to a bootfitter. save your nickels though - it can be a little pricey (I think they were about $200)

+1 on those Dalbello Golds. They are very comfortable. Mine seem to have packed out a teensy bit in the heel area, so I would recommend molding them with your buckes somewhat looser than normal but aside from that, they're terrific.

[Gleb]

The stock liners in my UPZ RTRs were horrible and painful. I got rid of them and got Dalbello Golds at Startingate before my first day of riding. Ditch the stock liners and get to a bootfitter. save your nickels though - it can be a little pricey (I think they were about $200)

+1 for the UPZ stock lines being trash.

Exhibit A

Exhibit B:

Today was my first day on unmolded Deeluxe track 700s and I felt discomfort for like a 10 second period in the 6 hours I was out. I fixed it by loosening the buckles on the lift ride up. Liners shouldn't be unbearably uncomfortable. The money spent on a good boot fitting is worth every penny. How can you enjoy carving if you're not comfortable?

[Ian M]

Hi Martin. I've been through three sets of liners in 10 years, and feel that it is definitely worth the effort to achieve a comfortable fit. My original Buron Fires hurt the tops of my feet so much that I cut neoprene doughnuts to alleviate the pressure there. Had to tape them onto my feet before putting my socks on each day.

Two years ago I bought Conformable foam injection liners. They had no pressure points and allowed for massive power to my edges, but I found that they stiffened the Fires a lot and were too tight a fit in general. They really compressed my toes a lot, so weren't totally comfortable, but better.

This season, I found that one of my Fire shells was cracked, so I bought Track700's. In the three days of riding that I've done so far, I found the thermo-fit liners very comfortable. They really shape to your foot, and the best part is you can adjust the fit later if something is not working. They also accept custom foot-beds very well, I put a sock over my foot and the full-length orthotic before sliding my foot into the hot liner.

Considering the amount of power that we like to transmit through our boots, I think that achieving a tight, comfortable fit is key for riding pleasure. Unfortunately, it is often difficult for us to try on the 3 or 4 brands out there and see which is the most comfortable. I was lucky enough to be able to try the Head Stratos and the Deeluxes on at the same time, and then choose between them. Unless you can try on the boots, and they happen to fit really well, I would advise some kind of a custom liner - whether it comes in the boot or you have to buy it afterward.

Ian :)

[aeronaut]

Greetings,

Thanks again for the information. Some other info -

I have wide, stubby feet. Not EEEEE wide, but I typically am most comfortable in EE snearkers from New Balance.

The UPZ boots seem to fit around my foot well. But the liner isn't doing it for me.

I'm confused about these injectable liners. How do they work? How do they compare with heat moldable ones, like:

http://www.bomberonline.com/store/accessories/liners.cfm

http://www.intuitionliners.com/products2.htm

And which intuition liners are best for carving?

Specific Replies:

KingCrimson: First day was just after I got them, a couple of years ago, and I survived it (although I couldn't really ride the Prior ATV that well, and spent a lot of time messing with the bindings.) They bug me a lot more now than they did back then. Of course, now I have my DC Allegiance softies, that fit like they were made just for me, so maybe I'm spoiled. But my pain tolerance is pretty good in general - I occasionally find bruises on me that I don't know how I got (not after a binge of drinking, either, ....)

Ian: Did you end up with the Heads or the Deeluxes?'

Tex1230, Queequeg: are the Dalbello Gold liners a flavor of intuitions?

Thanks in advance for all your help and advice.

Regards,

Martin

[bobdea]

injection liners can not even be compared with intuition or thermoflex liners.

they are that much better.

here's Bordy's review of the surefoot version http://hardbooter.net/serendipity/index.php?/archives/12-Surefoot-Review.html

[queequeg]

Tex1230, Queequeg: are the Dalbello Gold liners a flavor of intuitions?

Dalbello golds are made with the same foam stuff/technology as the regular intuition liners, but they have some special sauce mixed in. So far, the only place (I know of) that you can buy them is the startinggate in VT. (I'm sure there are others). I ordered mine over the phone and moulded them myself. (Actually, I called them up asking for a liner recommendation and they said I should try out the Dalbello Golds).

http://www.dalbello.it/ID_Thermo.aspx

You can read about cooking liners here:

http://yyzcanuck.com/E_tech_cooking.htm

[GeoffV]

Dalbello golds are made with the same foam stuff/technology as the regular intuition liners, but they have some special sauce mixed in. So far, the only place (I know of) that you can buy them is the startinggate in VT. (I'm sure there are others). I ordered mine over the phone and moulded them myself. (Actually, I called them up asking for a liner recommendation and they said I should try out the Dalbello Golds).

http://www.dalbello.it/ID_Thermo.aspx

You can read about cooking liners here:

http://yyzcanuck.com/E_tech_cooking.htm

Big +1 on the Dalbello Golds. Got mine at Startinggate this fall. You need a place that can do the molding for you. I needed some extra space in certain areas and there is no way I could have done the molding myself.

My 1st run in the gold liners I was in

[BadBrad]

This is an interesting thread for me. My boots are Burton Wind, and I used the stock liners for several years. They sucked, but I didn't know any better. Finally, the tongues were painfully digging into the top of my feet, so last year I bought a set of ZipFit liners. My Burton liners & boots always felt a bit short in length, so I got the World Cup model ZipFits since they are designed for low volume boots. (My foot measures about 26, but the 26.5 Burton liners felt small; the ZipFit 26.5 fits well.) The ZipFits are very warm and very comfortable all day long, and I like how they mold to my foot while I ride and provide great heel hold-down.

My only problem with the ZipFits are that they made the boot noticeably stiffer, and I like a fairly soft boot and binding flex. I find that I now buckle my boots more loosely, resulting in some slop between my leg and boot to provide that range of movement, but I know that's not ideal. One of the other model ZipFits, like the Grand Prix or Classic, might provide some softer flex, but I'm afraid that they'd be too tight in my boot.

So, which liner would give me the softest flex while not being too tight, and still be comfortable and warm? The new Intuition Freeride looks like it would have a fairly soft flex. Has anyone here tried these?

Also, since my boots are 26.5 and the 26.5 ZipFits fit well, if liners are available in whole mondo sizes, should I get a 26 and mold them bigger or get a 27 and squeeze it into my shells?

[aeronaut]

Greetings,

After reading the posts here, links, and other websites, and considering my budget, I've decided to go with the intuition liners. I can't really justify spending twice as much for injectables, even if they are way better. I put down a deposit, but they won't order them until Monday.

Next question - the guy at the ski shop steered me towards the intuition alpine , which seems to be their sort of generic boot liner. Is this the one to go with, or should I be looking at the power wrap, power wrap plug, or luxury (which my guess has as their home brewed version of the Dalbello gold liner.) One thing in particular that the shop guy said was that the alpine was shorter, and would be a better fit into my UPZ boots (RSV Mach Superlight, 26-126.5 mp).

What is the conventional wisdom out there about which intuition liner to use?

Regards,

Martin

[b0ardski]

Brad, if you really like a soft flexing boot, like me, try the thermo-flex. I love these for free riding & powder, if its a hard carving day I use the liners out of my blax that have a plastic tongue. Changing the between these liners is like having 2 totally different boots. I use either liner in old 124s because they have a smoother flex range than the Blax (shaped like the heads).

the thermo-flex are relatively cheap, and nice for soft snow days:1luvu:

[Kent]

I have a line that I use with friends...and apologize for the profanity.

"You can't polish a piece of ****, but you can put a flag in it"

Basically, if the shell sucks or doesn't fit....there's no use tossing more money at it with bells and whistles. The liner market has exploded (up from insoles), yet this isn't going to cure all problems.

You mentioned an issue around the ankle...but what other fit issues on your having?

The "2 finger" rule is a MAXIMUM, not a range. If it's "2 big fingers" or "2 fingers and some", that is not two fingers.....you want two snug fingers.

Before they get working on the liners, double check the shell....and that will be a better indicator on which liner to buy.

Good luck.

[Ian M]

injection liners can not even be compared with intuition or thermoflex liners. They are that much better.

That sounds like a good review, Bobdea, but I wouldn't say that injectables should be for everyone. I agree with the review that there is noticeably more feedback in the conformable liners - there is no better interface. However, I found that they stiffened my boots too much. Some people may prefer the much softer flex of the thermo liners. Unfortunately, I think that the liners my bootfitter chose were too small, and they crushed my toes painfully.

Martin - I did purchase the Track 700's. I'm still loving them, but can't wait to put my red-sprung BTS on them. I don't like the slop in the forward lean mechanism at all.

Cheers!