Bruce Varsava Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 A friend was asking if I make boards for kiting on snow and he sent me some info on what available. I do plan on doing them eventually but read this and one line in particular will make everyone smile and go home happy:) His timing was perfect as I just got the message! Rob Whittall - “We have developed a specialized board for the dedicated Snowkiter, designed specifically for the rigors of Snowkiting. This unique design incorporates many new features, which allow the board to ride and feel smoother on the snow. Delivering a feeling that is closer to Kitesurfing, less fatiguing than a traditional snowboard, and allowing the rider to enjoy the Snowkiting experience even more.” The technology inside the Velocity – * Posi + Rocker – The Velocity has a positive rocker, and this upward curve across the board helps with initiating turns at slow speeds and prevents edges from grabbing when riding flat. * Posi + Side Cut – The positive and progressive side cut gives the Velocity its unique shape while providing plenty of contact between the edge and snow. The Posi + Side Cut allows the board to cut through and float over the snow efficiently while tracking very directly. * True Flex – The Velocity has a constant flex pattern that extends from tip to tail allowing the deck to flex extensively, giving a natural and progressive carve to every turn. The constant flex increases the pop for improved freestyle, and acts like a shock absorber when traversing unfriendly snow conditions. * Shovel Nose – The tips have been trimmed down in width to reduce the tendency for them to grab when on edge. These tips slice through the snow keeping the board above the snow and tracking directly, resulting in less vibration and a smoother ride, unlike a traditional snowboard that is constantly plowing and crashing thru the snow. * Phat Ass – The Velocity has a 30cm wide Ass preventing toe and heel drag. It is also one of the reasons the Velocity feels so good in powder, due to the increased surface area the board rises to the surface easily to float on top, even at slower speeds. * 164 cm Length – With the thinner nose and wider body, the Velocity rides like a smaller snowboard, despite its impressive length. At 164 cm, it offers the perfect size for eating up rough surfaces, cutting cleanly across ice, and staying on top of deep snow. * Materials – The Velocity is a high quality snowboard built in the USA. Constructed with a sintered base and a solid wood core laminated to our specifications. Triax and Biax laminates mixed with resins designed to reduce weight while retaining maximum strength. High-grade stainless steel inserts and carbon fiber stringers round out the Velocity adding up to one of the most well built boards on the market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 I love when the thread drifts to NoBoarding... If you live in the PNW and you're not trying this out, you're blowing it. The cheapest traction available are old mountainbike tires, with the bead cut off. Just leave the tread and glue. Snow doesn't like to stick to it much, either. Surfboard foam can be expensive and it's not very durable. As Mud said, it holds snow, too because the foam is very porous. Bruce! Got a picture of thet board? If you want to blow the wad, buy the pad at... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Varsava Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 I love when the thread drifts to NoBoarding...Bruce! Got a picture of thet board? http://windzup.com/news_twisted.html He sent me a link and heres the site but its not too informative as the pic is an artists conception . Interesting to see something different though. Looks like maybe good for learning or tricks. I've only done it once on snow despite getting 40 or 50 days usually per year on water Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 That thing looks just like the Lib Bannana Hammock T Rice brought out sledding last year. He put a NoBoard pad on it and went very fast. That thing sure did like to sit on top. Sorry... I will jack this thread no more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Dahl Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 That thing looks just like the Lib Bannana Hammock T Rice brought out sledding last year. My thoughts exactly...when I saw the pics last month. The Hammock is kinda what started that famous August thread of mine about pow boards. Rocker most definatly has its place in pow sticks, and full rocker lets you do a lot with less. New Fish has nose rocker, Prior Spearhead has nose rocker, Sick Stick is basically no camber with a softer flex (too soft in my mind) etc. etc. Looks like nose rocker has a place on SL boards, too, aka the Kesslers. Makes sense too, after watching the JJ Anderson clip in the viddy section. Oh, and Bruce, a twin tip carver? We must talk....Looks like a dream project I've been tossing around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yyzcanuck Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Who wants to give up their production spot?:) You can always bump me. Andrea & I were out today at MSLM and I was riding ol' faithful. Still works fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Varsava Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 Oh, and Bruce, a twin tip carver? We must talk....Looks like a dream project I've been tossing around. You dream it I build it! With the new titanal board tooling I made sure it was super flexible to accommodate a lot of ideas easily. Working well so far and I have still a few accessories to add for even more options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 My thoughts exactly...when I saw the pics last month. The Hammock is kinda what started that famous August thread of mine about pow boards. Rocker most definatly has its place in pow sticks, and full rocker lets you do a lot with less. New Fish has nose rocker, Prior Spearhead has nose rocker, Sick Stick is basically no camber with a softer flex (too soft in my mind) etc. etc. Looks like nose rocker has a place on SL boards, too, aka the Kesslers. Makes sense too, after watching the JJ Anderson clip in the viddy section. What makes that Hammock sit on top is that reverse sidecut. It sure doesn't want to reverse camber as much. It sat really shallow and went fast... Scary fast w/o binders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coloradoking Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 umm please remind me how this turned into a conversation about noboards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 As long as we're talking crazy.... Horizontally laminated wood cores. You heard it here first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 Innovation is an exciting thing to watch...Maybe with the new material dynamics we are close to a board with not just reverse camber but one with both, reverse sidecut and reverse camber... Volant Spatula Lotus DPS and many others... The skiers have been doing this for a few years. But, like I said, they are scary as hell if you hit ice or hardpack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yyzcanuck Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 As long as we're talking crazy....Horizontally laminated wood cores. You heard it here first. Try HOT Blast... first. Here's a LINK to the tech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinks Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 This question is directed at Mike Tinkler can you please clarify a lot of questions around Pokkis board design and how one would expect this board to function and work on snow. This has been very interesting to see unfold. I haven’t had this much sh!t thrown at me since I went to the Zoo and had Chimps lob hot ones, just kidding. I realize that my reluctance to jump into this all led to a lot of speculation. I did not start the thread and was not putting forth the concept as the end all, nor was Pokkis. He was just commenting on his experience riding the design. He is one of the only people here who can truly comment on the design having personally experienced it. My design came about with the desire for an easy, quick turning board. That’s the same reason I made my first “SLIT” tips and tails in 1997. They were single cut slits; something that had never been done on an alpine board before. I had been making and riding my slit tails for over two months before getting a hold of Fawcett in Tahoe. I told him how great I thought it worked, and that he should take a skill saw like I had to make one single cut up the center 15 inches long, dividing the tail in two. I then told him that when he returned I would mount Snow Stix on the splits. This led to Mark making the Sims Burner with the guy from Hexel Skis that had done small swallow tails on skis. As always, my designs incorporated Snow Stix technology to control each split independently with the ability to vary its camber foot print. The same is true for me in the rocker board. It was an opportunity to use my camber systems so I could vary the amount of rocker; something I have done in many other board sports. Adjustable rocker is nothing new to me. I thought that the ability to vary the length of the base contact foot print of the board might be interesting. I could increase or decrease the tip or tail pressure depending on the conditions; soft groom or boiler plate. I knew this would be important to broaden the range of this design. Short and variable base contact length and a long effective edge was my goal. From decades of working with camber foot prints I knew that as I increase camber using my systems, it would make the turn initiation slower and stiffer feeling. So going in the opposite direction would make it feel quick and easy. The worst rides of my life have been on highly cambered stiff boards on a steep narrow run. So my thinking was to go in the opposite direction. I just want to ride like everyone else with an easy quick turning board, and I will experiment with whatever concept I think of to make that happen. You can’t compare my costs to a regular board with mono technology. My boards cost more because they involve three technologies: the base board (with extra t-nuts and internal side walls for the slit tails), the Snow Stix carbon plate (the binding mounted design), and carbon Snow Stix. That’s a lot of work. If builders start to do this type of board with mono construction and especially in metal, I can predict the outcome in which I will not reveal at this time. Snow Stix on this alpine version are very important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokkis Posted December 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 i've been on Mike's stix adjustable boards now for 3 seasons, and i'm still strong beliver for concept of adjustable board flex/behaviour. Specially cause this adjustable is so easy to do, i do it mainly on lift, on T-bat if i'm alone or on chair or cabin. It just takes like 5-20 seconds to change board behaviour fully according your wish. And if i'm fully happy i just ride :rolleyes: Rocketman is another issue. It is concept by Mike, and when i heard about it, i just wanted to see how it works. So it is not my own silly wish based own my idea just my believe that i want to test something existing and built by Mike. And after riding it, to day still too little, many things i did not believe have now changed. So if possible dont judge thengs before you have tried them. All boards in my fleet are available for test runs in OCC in March just in case you will be aroud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinks Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 I also wonder why Bryan and Tinkler so vocally attacked Jack when they had no response to Kildy's callout here: http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22643&highlight=kildy+flex To the guy that wondered why I did not respond to “Kildy flex” right away, it’s because it has taken over a month for me to calm down to respond to “Kildy flex.” If I had responded at the time, it would have been a cage fight; full MMA. Kildy and I have done this before. MT would have best served himself letting others argue for him, but you can only take so much. Trying to defend yourself on the internet is impossible. There are too many self proclaimed experts and know-it-alls to ever stop once you start..... As MUD said, one can only take so much, and defending one's self online is nearly impossible, but I feel it is necessary to give it a try. I will try really hard to only stick to the facts and not get personal. I need to start from the beginning. In 1993, Mike Kildivauld asked to come over to my house and get a set of carbon Snow Stix for his Burton asy Race board and talk about my adjustable camber concepts. Because he was a Burton team rider at the time and showed an unusual interest in my thoughts and concepts, I had him sign a confidential discloser agreement and he was given a copy. I talked freely about my concepts about externally downloading the tip and tail of boards and skis with various systems to create camber. He was shown everything in my shop and the original Snow Stix set-up Fawcett tested in 1991, which was a Snow Stix arm attached to a riser plate that went under the binding. We talked about all the things in my filed patent. Things like two arms mounted on a riser plate, and a one arm system that could be moved laterally to bias the left and right side of the board to create torsional flex control. He was shown urethane binding cants that I was custom making for the Cross M team. He was shown a lot of concepts. Then I went on to develop my systems and market them. Snow Stix went on to win 16 World Cups, and podium 32 times, and were used by some of the most elite racers in the world. The patent was sold to K2 in 1995. Then in 1997 Kildivauld showed up with 2 cambered Snow Stix arms attached at the tip and tail to a K2 EPB derby plate. The purpose as Kildy describes it is to download the tip and tail! Wow, I wonder where he got that idea!! He combined two patented designs and called it Kildy Flex. Both patents owned by K2; the Snow Stix patent and the Trimble EPB Derby patent. Some of you ex-skiers may remember K2’s Extra Power Booster riser ski plate. It had a fixed mounting point in the center and mounting points at the ends that had slots allowing it to slide toward the tip and tail when flexed. When I told the K2 patent lawyer what Kildivauld was doing, they were not too happy having two patents they owned being infringed by not just a racer, but now a company 24/7. All my Tinkler dual Snow Stix plates K2 had made for me were marked with patent members. If he thinks he has an issued patent on these two designs please show everyone. Never did I see his plate display a patent number. It’s kind of hard to get a patent on something that’s already patented. I had always told Kildivauld just cut my Snow Stix arms off that plate and you become someone else’s problem, but he never did. Even today he shows drawings of dual cambered Snow Stix arms and as he describes, their purpose is to download the tip and tail. Then he uses them on a split tail that runs all the way to the tip. Once again, I wonder where that idea came from? If Mr. Kildvauld can’t find his copy of the discloser contract that lays out what concepts were discussed, I will gladly send him another copy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 To the guy that wondered why I did not respond to “Kildy flex” right away, it’s because it has taken over a month for me to calm down to respond to “Kildy flex.” If I had responded at the time, it would have been a cage fight; full MMA. Kildy and I have done this before.As MUD said, one can only take so much, and defending one's self online is nearly impossible, but I feel it is necessary to give it a try. I will try really hard to only stick to the facts and not get personal. I need to start from the beginning. In 1993, Mike Kildivauld asked to come over to my house and get a set of carbon Snow Stix for his Burton asy Race board and talk about my adjustable camber concepts. Because he was a Burton team rider at the time and showed an unusual interest in my thoughts and concepts, I had him sign a confidential discloser agreement and he was given a copy. I talked freely about my concepts about externally downloading the tip and tail of boards and skis with various systems to create camber. He was shown everything in my shop and the original Snow Stix set-up Fawcett tested in 1991, which was a Snow Stix arm attached to a riser plate that went under the binding. We talked about all the things in my filed patent. Things like two arms mounted on a riser plate, and a one arm system that could be moved laterally to bias the left and right side of the board to create torsional flex control. He was shown urethane binding cants that I was custom making for the Cross M team. He was shown a lot of concepts. Then I went on to develop my systems and market them. Snow Stix went on to win 16 World Cups, and podium 32 times, and were used by some of the most elite racers in the world. The patent was sold to K2 in 1995. Then in 1997 Kildivauld showed up with 2 cambered Snow Stix arms attached at the tip and tail to a K2 EPB derby plate. The purpose as Kildy describes it is to download the tip and tail! Wow, I wonder where he got that idea!! He combined two patented designs and called it Kildy Flex. Both patents owned by K2; the Snow Stix patent and the Trimble EPB Derby patent. Some of you ex-skiers may remember K2’s Extra Power Booster riser ski plate. It had a fixed mounting point in the center and mounting points at the ends that had slots allowing it to slide toward the tip and tail when flexed. When I told the K2 patent lawyer what Kildivauld was doing, they were not too happy having two patents they owned being infringed by not just a racer, but now a company 24/7. All my Tinkler dual Snow Stix plates K2 had made for me were marked with patent members. If he thinks he has an issued patent on these two designs please show everyone. Never did I see his plate display a patent number. It’s kind of hard to get a patent on something that’s already patented. I had always told Kildivauld just cut my Snow Stix arms off that plate and you become someone else’s problem, but he never did. Even today he shows drawings of dual cambered Snow Stix arms and as he describes, their purpose is to download the tip and tail. Then he uses them on a split tail that runs all the way to the tip. Once again, I wonder where that idea came from? If Mr. Kildvauld can’t find his copy of the discloser contract that lays out what concepts were discussed, I will gladly send him another copy. Ooohhhh, SNAP! MT. Did you get my PM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 Snow Stix patent, in case anyone is curious...... I know I was. http://www.google.com/patents?id=ET4eAAAAEBAJ&dq=mike+tinkler #5284357 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coloradoking Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 Horizontally laminated wood cores. You heard it here first. i give it 2 runs before EPIC FAILURE!!!! by the way; i know you're joking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkaholic Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 Ck, Like YYZ said. Try HOT Blast... first. I still love riding Hot Blasts. I will need to try out D.T.'s and Big Mario's new to them blasts. Ink Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yyzcanuck Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 i give it 2 runs before EPIC FAILURE!!!! by the way; i know you're joking. Maybe go HERE before you jump to conclusions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 As long as we're talking crazy....Horizontally laminated wood cores. You heard it here first. The only hard part is finding the wood with consistent enough density the width and length of a snow board to give you the desired effect (homogenious-ness:D). Other than that, there is no reason you would not do it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 i give it 2 runs before EPIC FAILURE!!!! by the way; i know you're joking. joking or not you obviously know nothing about snowboard construction or it's history... on topic to that G3 H-lam/V-lam board, very interesting, it would be very nice for pow and freeriding, not sure about alpine but who knows...some similar things have been done with DH Skateboards recently by both small custom builders (airotica) and more commercial ones like Comet, Rayne and even Watson Laminates has been playing with something like that for Earthwing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Varsava Posted December 20, 2008 Report Share Posted December 20, 2008 If builders start to do this type of board with mono construction and especially in metal, I can predict the outcome in which I will not reveal at this time. Snow Stix on this alpine version are very important. I think a lot of riders here have some idea of what the outcome might be. The point which I am somewhat wondering about is when on the hill riding with the stix set in a certain tension how can the effect be much different than a board with internal construction to get that tension into those areas? Carbon laminates, core adjustments etc. The stix will allow adjustment of course which would make the board feel different in different conditions which to some is a desirable but when set, if a mono board had the internals to somewhat duplicate that would it really be that different? My prediction is that it would be not that different but you would only have one setting so you would try to set it to optimum for the conditions you wanted to ride in . That would be pretty limiting so I can't see it being of value to anyone. With the stix it is of course a different story. My experience would say no tension and the ride would be " skatey" and very easy to roll into turns. With the sticks tensioned, a somewhat more regular tracking ride but as you know there are a ton of variables in each board so that would affect how the turning felt depending on board stiffness etc. How much energy coming out of a turn is hard to predict but could easily be felt with a test ride as again plenty of variables. Just some honest questions. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted December 20, 2008 Report Share Posted December 20, 2008 BTW did I mention that I saw a Tinkler freestyle at Stratton the other day? didn't know the kid, but he was a hell of a rider. Tink, My earlier question was more to point out the absurdity of you and Bryan attacking Jack for asking legitimate questions and stating reasonable opinions while ignoring a rather blatant callout. Thanks for confirming that one of you can communicate without insinuating some conspiracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted December 20, 2008 Report Share Posted December 20, 2008 Has any one put adjustable tension arm on skis, I think Solomon was the the 1st to produce skis wth them but they were not adjustable. I shoud have bought some snow stix when I first saw them in the early 90s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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