Auto Bailout

[tex1230]

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/buy-our-crap.png

(for some reason I can't link the pic)

[Art]

I worked on GM products (as well as VW and Land Rover among others) and I was never impressed with their quality. The only thing leaking oil more were Land Rovers. Rattles? Poor assembly? Sorry fellas, why are you all so surprised nobody wants to buy a crappy product? This is no surprise, and you all have had years to improve. Hell, Im a union guy, but I am having a hard time with some of the sweet deals labor has had, without improving their end of the quality spectrum. if Japanese builders can make a decent product in a US plant why cant the big three?

[carvedog]

And they say two million jobs depend on it. Arrrrgghhhh.

No one is bailing me out. I still say instead of the bailout crap they should have given the money directly to the American people.

It would be up to about 12 or 14 K per person nationwide. What would happen? It would all get spent by everyone not just ............

Well there I got started when I promised myself I wouldn't.

Had to change the fuel pump on my Explorer this last weekend. Once I figured out the pressurized fuel line fittings it wasn't bad. Still confused why US cars have metric and SAe sizes?????:smashfrea:smashfrea

Worked fine when I got it back together, but now I can't raise my right arm over my shoulder. Hasn't bothered me for a year and now I can't use it. Must of been when I was putting the tank back in.

I have to say the Explorer has been a tank. 340k on the original engine. Did replace the tranny this summer but I have done a ton of towing ( in OD too) which I found out is a no-no. And about 50K of the 250K I put on was on dirt.

When you coming over Art? We are opening tomorrow with Upper college, Squirrel to lower WS. and mid river down to lower on the other side.

At least we are open.

[bobdea]

I'm not sure it's a labor issue.

German labor gets some nice deals and they still turn out a decent product.

Labor costs in the US were quite good in the 90's compared to the rest of the 1st world, like 19th or something. I'm willing to bet they still are.

The issue lies more in a crap product, poor design, cheap materials through on to assembly....

Honda has been the only major force in the auto industry to never have a losing quarter. Their philosophy is is always listen to the engineers. As far as GM goes I'm not sure they have any, ford does but their 63 mpg diesel is not available in the US and chrysler does not make anything that I can think of on the low end(where the majority of buyers are now) that's appealing.

BTW, anyone have any experience with a the newer diesel jettas?

[ajcannon]

I agree...you can blame labor for high prices...but you can't blame them for crappy product (IMO).

With regard to crappy products...I think this country has had a love affair with "management" over the last few decades...engineers are scoffed at like a bunch of silly detail oriented folks who can't see the "big picture". Probably not a team player if you look too critically at something. And you wonder why our products are crappy...

This is coming from one of those silly, detail-oriented, non-team-player, engineer types :)

[Jon Dahl]

Anyone hasn't stated the obvious here. The legislative and executive branches of our Federal government lack the Constitutional power to be engaged in this "bailout", which is little more than welfare for business. Go read the 10th amendment just to get a feel for what limitations mean. I have told my "representatives" (I use this term in a loose fashion!)this via email, no response. If a loud minority of people would make enough noise, somebody might take the hint...not sure how to take 'em into the court system yet, and that would be a very big step. And somewhat expensive, too. Oh, and btw, if the system would be allowed to sort itself out, yeah, it might be ugly for a bit, but afterwards it would recover nicely. History has proven this, and proven anytime people mess with the system to "help a recovery", it takes much longer and is much more painful financially. Get ready for the brown stuff to hit the rotational ventilation device. Just my humble $.02 for whatever that is worth now!

[bobdea]

Anyone hasn't stated the obvious here. The legislative and executive branches of our Federal government lack the Constitutional power to be engaged in this "bailout", which is little more than welfare for business. Go read the 10th amendment just to get a feel for what limitations mean. I have told my "representatives" (I use this term in a loose fashion!)this via email, no response. If a loud minority of people would make enough noise, somebody might take the hint...not sure how to take 'em into the court system yet, and that would be a very big step. And somewhat expensive, too. Oh, and btw, if the system would be allowed to sort itself out, yeah, it might be ugly for a bit, but afterwards it would recover nicely. History has proven this, and proven anytime people mess with the system to "help a recovery", it takes much longer and is much more painful financially. Get ready for the brown stuff to hit the rotational ventilation device. Just my humble $.02 for whatever that is worth now!

history has proven many things 1, Laissez-faire capitalism does not work 2, corporate welfare does not work either.

Honestly, I am for the bailouts if we know what we are getting for our money and not just giving away the money. If we shell out the cash we should do it like a private investor would. By taking control of said companies. The american people should be sick of being raped of our resources.

John dahl, free market theory is hardly relivent with the way banks function and the way corporations are allowed to exists with rights far exceeding the rights of a real person but with no real accountability.

[Recon]

Well stated Jon Dahl

[mr_roboteye]

We talked about this around the lunchtable at work a few days ago, and one of my coworkers raised a valid point. How many small companies that tried to produce cars have the big three ruined and bankrupted through the years. Now that they are the ones on the ropes, do they really deserve to be bailed out? I realize that there is more to it than this simple question, as a good portion of the workforce in the US, either directly or indirectly depends on the auto industry, so there is more at stake than one little car company of days gone by. Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there.

later,

Dave R.

[KingCrimson]

Save the money for later. This is silly.

Just because Honda isn't managed all the way through in the US doesn't mean it's not contributing to the economy.

Why not invest in Honda?

[BobD]

Save the money for later. This is silly.

Just because Honda isn't managed all the way through in the US doesn't mean it's not contributing to the economy.

Why not invest in Honda?

Because if the *%^& hits the wall, we will need to have a heavy manufacturing base to make the tanks etc. That doesn't just mean the production lines, but all the design and tooling skills as well. I don't think anyone would be happy to go off to war in a converted honda. It's as important to security as the military itself.

BobD

[KingCrimson]

Because if the *%^& hits the wall, we will need to have a heavy manufacturing base to make the tanks etc. That doesn't just mean the production lines, but all the design and tooling skills as well. I don't think anyone would be happy to go off to war in a converted honda. It's as important to security as the military itself.

BobD

Now, I know I'm just a punk ass kid, but I'm going to have to say this. Your reasoning makes NO sense whatsoever. You say that assuming Honda (or Toyota etc) has no capability to make vehicles for warfare applications. Obviously this would not follow their "green" mentality, but I don't think it's fair to assume that it would be a Honda Civic with bulletproof body panels and a machine gun turret. Off the top of your head, can you name a vehicle in widespread use made by Chrysler, GM, or Ford? The Humvee isn't a GM product. A good majority of armored/armed vehicles are manufactured by firms such as the Carlyle Group's former investment opportunity United Defense Industries.

With this Sphincter Conflict in Iraq going on, can you honestly tell me that you think any of those companies are suffering? If GM went under, do you really think that the engineers would just pick up a career in some other field? If there is a need for the engineers, they will obviously have a job. They won't just "go away" if GM goes under. Just because the company is gone doesn't mean that any of those human resources you mentioned will disappear.

[BobD]

As I tried to convey, it's not just a production line that's important. It's all the other services that go into a large scale manufacturing base. Sure you could build military equipment in the foreign owned factories. I'm sure they would set straight to work in Japan and Korea designing the production equipment and building the machines for us to use for manufacturing. They could also provide the management to run things.

If GM went under, do you really think that the engineers would just pick up a career in some other field? If there is a need for the engineers, they will obviously have a job. They won't just "go away" if GM goes under. Just because the company is gone doesn't mean that any of those human resources you mentioned will disappear.

That is what would happen. The foreign owned engineering is not done here and nor are the other things I mention above.

The alternative is that we rely totally on nuclear deterent

BobD

[rhaskins]

I'm and engineer, I have an opinion also. Gee, I luv the interwebz

I also got one of those MBA's that is supposed to make me smarter, but I seriously doubt that. One thing I am aware of is:

"If you don't heed the lessions of history, you are doomed to repeat it" or something like that.

Hark back to the 70's (80's also). The auto industry was sucking air like a beached fish - not in a good way. Chrysler was stockpiling cars from year to year, just rebranding them as time when by. Finally, they went under. But, GM and Ford were literally in the same boat. The Japanese cars were starting to be better quality than what they put out, and American cars just did not have any quality. You purchased a brand new car and it would rattle. No one put together systems to guarantee quality. 3 sigma initiatives in the US just did not exist except in Aerospace. I know, I was there and I studied the sytems.

The US auto makers started to loose market share, and American engineering was both looked up to and derided. We had energy problems, and the reaction to it was all over the board. CARS were one of our big problems, ENGINEERING was a big problems with CARS, and MANAGEMENT was ineffective. They could not find a way out of their problems.

It was a lack of imagination, a concentration on finance versus business and engineering, and a focus on this quarter's profits versus long term viability and a vision of the future. Does any of this sound familiar? BTW, the Japanese were thinking in terms of 5 year and 10 year plans, and had their central Ministry (Minstry of Industry I think) providing a guiding hand in helping all (ALL) large companies plan for the future of their manufacturing to make sure that long-term viability was assured. Small companies fell into place to service the needs of the large companies. BTW, I am compressing a lot of facts here, so please bear with me.

That Japanese system did a number of things. Of these, I put forward for your consideration:

1. Gave a long term timeline to all activities and make it in the national interest to plan and manage properly. Seems to have worked. It was not foolproof, it was not necessarily aimed at the economy (see Japanese economy in the 90's), but it made heavy industry safe, secure, financially viable, and forward looking. Think Toyota Prius.

2. Made the companies plan their engineering and finance in the same stroke. No heavy industry in Japan is in dire straits compared to US auto makers. All the unions (they have a lot of unions), management and etc. are on-board for the long haul.

3. Stiffled creativity. Groupthink. Japan has a long history of this being a more homogenous population than almost anywhere in the world. The society wants you to fit in and conform. This is not to say that there is no ingenuity or creativity in Japan; quite the opposite. But in engineering and science, there were no big developments. In applied science and engineering, the Japanese cleaned the clock of every competitior out there, they were (are) monsters of manufacturing. The Germans were envious, but that is another story.

So, the US embarked on a Quality initiative across the board in almost all manufacturing were 3 sigma was the name of the game. (If you don't know what 3 sigma is and how it relates, please study it, it is the basis of almost all manufacturing today. there is a lot of related things that happen in design and design to production engineering that were forced into the design cycle because of 3 sigma; it was not uncommon in the 70's and 80's to have some great designs that could not be manufactured- this is a huge subject on it's own). In the auto industry this lead to the Taurus from Ford and the Saturn car company from GM. Both had one thing in common, each company recognized that it could build a better product by getting rid of all the old ways of manufacturing, management and engineering and start from scratch. The Taurus was a break-thru product (read your history on this one yourself) and the Saturn showed what could be done by keeping the old-skool management, engineer and finance people at bay and starting fresh with a clean slate.

Both initiatives ultimately failed. Both got caught up in the push to have next-quarter profits and stock price support win out over planning, engineering and a forward view. Both GM and Ford lost their freaking minds and let these initiative collapse - they went back to let the finance people determine what they were to manufacture. No forward thinking at all. Not a single Prius. Note that Ford renamed the 500 to the Taurus to try and recapture the brand recognition and magic. Marketing, blah!

To put this in perspective: In 1978 I went looking for a new car, and ultimately purchased a Mercury Bobcat (think Ford Pinto made by Mercury; better trim). It got about 25 MPG. I have a Volkswagen Jetta today that gets about 25 MPH. The highest mileage car on the road at that time was a Ford 4 cylinder diesel that got about 50 MPG. (Everyone knew that diesels were no good so I didn't get one - peer pressure, I succumed). While in the Mercury-Lincoln dealership I looked at the new Lincoln's. You have no idea how BAD the body work was on a new Lincoln town car. Paint runs. Messed up body lines. Fenders not aligned. At least the Bobcat, being a small car that was assembled on a high-volume production line, looked better and had better fit/trim. The state of the new Lincoln's was just tragic, but that was what was for sale at the time. Crap. People bought their cars because that was what was for sale.

Some people thought there was a better way and went Japanese. What set the Japanese cars apart was they didn't fall apart by 70,000 miles. With an American car, by 70,000 miles you had to: replace the alternator, replace the starter, have the carbs rebuilt, probably had a transmission problem if you had an automatic, would have electrical problems, had to replace or rebuild the power steering pump, replace the water pump, and chase after numerous rattles. This is not a joke, this was what everyone expected for a car in the 70's and 80's. I went to purchase a motorcycle in 1980 after my old one was stolen. I wanted a Harley. I did my research and found that based on customer surverys, a Harley had a dealership fixable issue every 100 miles or so. Think about that: about the total lack of engineering and customer appreciation. I purchase a Yamaha and never had an issue with that bike. I went to several functions where there were a lot of Harleys, and there were always a couple of tow trucks that would park nearby - because they knew they would have business. And, sure enuf, they would have business towing or repairing Harleys. Really sad. Me and my Jap crap would just cruise away.

So what has chaned in the ensuing 38 years since 1970?

Nut'in Honey.

Management has run these companies into the ground. Improvements are:

1. Quality. The big 3 build good cars. No rattles, and except in the case of where Chrysler put Misibushi engines in the Sebring (don't f'n get me started on that fiasco), they have high quality, no parts grenade by 70,000. In fact, the quality matches the Japanese.

2. Engineering. World class. The American car companies can do anything with a car, anything.

What's wrong? MANAGEMENT!

Company culture at all 3 companies sucks, the finance people took over and concentrate on quarterly results again. In their perceived best interests, they fight CAFE and stick their heads in the sand about what the real world is about. Think SUV. There never was a viable counter-culture movement in these companies to bring a high mileage vehicle to market. Not one. The Volt is a pie in the sky attempt to politicize the real task at hand: make cars that we need. Detroit (big 3) have marketing departments that sell us what they want to produce and will make the most profit from, not what we should be striving for. Think Prius. Think GTI. And this bears repeating - there is no movement in these companies to build high mileage vehicles. What is there today is window dressing.

As an aside: because of the news and the sales and terms being offered by Detroit, I decided to look around for an American made auto that gets good gas mileage. I drive a Jetta, all round get 25 mph, more if it is all on the highway, less if just in town. A high mileage American made auto is about 30 mph. I got my Jetta at the end of 2005 right after Katrina spiked gas prices (I was driving a Nissan truck). The US auto industry has done NOTHING in these years to build a high mileage vehicle and sell it to the American public. Volkswage is going to market (next year?) hybrid diesels that can get up to 60 MPG or so. This makes me angry.

So, lets bail out the big 3. Lets terminate immediately the top 2 layers of management at each company. Over the next year, a lottery is to be held at each company to terminate at random one-half of all management and hire chimps if we have to to replace them. Can't do any worse than what they have done already. Require the remaining management, if they want to continue to work at these companies, to go to re-education classes to get the crap out of their thinking. Terminate with extreme prejudice ALL finance types at all the companies. They have not done even a minimal job. Hire people without the stain of bad management. Hire the CEO of Toyota away from Toyota no matter what salary you have to pay him to be the auto CZAR. I am serious about that. I don't care if he speaks english or not, it needs to be done to show the whole industry how serious we view their abject failure. Give the CZAR dictatorial powers over the big 3 - he can hire and fire at will with no legal recourse from the firee.

Put into law that the future of all heavy manufacturing in the US is a matter of national security. It really is. We loose our manufacturing capacity and our capability to engineer, and we are through. You want fries with that? Make the companies file viability plans with a central planning office. Oversee that that heavy manufacturing is not next-quarter centric, but have long-term plans and the financial viability to continue. If they loose focus, force them (anyone, Catapillar, Peterbuilt, Chrysler) to merge with a viable company. Across the board, limit CEO compensation. Do not, under any circumstances, give a CEO a big salary or bonus based on quarterly results or yearly results that they can get their hands on immediately. Force them to wait 3 years for the bonus, stock options and the mega-millions base salary, and then only pay it out if the company is on-track with their long-term viability plan.

A bankruptcy of the big three may be a good deal, but it would be messy and a lot of folks would loose their job. The figure bandied about is 2,000,000 jobs are at stake. If Chrysler and GM file for bankruptcy, you can expect their car sales to fall by half, and the only beneficiaries are foreign car companies. So, we have 1,000,000 people probably out of work drawing welfare (unemployment). The rest of the auto workers will make less. Retirees will not get paid, and end up on the dole. Chrysler will cease to exist because they don't make vehicles that anyone wants; in my opinion they would probably be liquidated.

So where are we going to put those people to work? How are we going to get the earning power back to the working folks? It will take a long time; again, see Japan economy from the 90's. Stagnation. The effects from this could be disaster.

By the way, I am a free-enterprise guy, let the best and the brightest win and let the others suck hind tit (I grew up in North Dakota!!!!). But, my old man lived in a tent one summer during the depression because they had no place else to live. I do not wish that on anyone. If people do not make money because there are no jobs, they have to go somewhere. This economy is so inter-dependant (recycling is down because manufacturing does not need to products, the lumber industry is failing because the housing industry is waaaaaay down, xmas part-time jobs are down because people are not spending, etc.) that my job, your job could be next. I would rather have people making cars, repairing and building bridges, dredging harbors and polishing brass if necessary than begging in the streets.

It has happened before.

And, btw, if you replace your manufacturing by outsourcing it, what happens when you ask for something that they do not want to produce, or they feel it is their national interest not to manufacture for you (Honda, Toyota) or to charge you more. You have Zero recourse but to suck it up. The ability to build a jetliner, an operating systme, a machine tool or an automobile is basic engineering/manufacturing and is a necessary weapon in your national arsenal. Without that expertise - and don't think for a second that you can gain expertise by reading a book without actually doing (like trying to carve on the Internet) - you don't have the capabiliy.

I hope that it comes as no surprise that I could not sleep last nite. I don't know why. Then I saw this post and . . . Did I tell you I like anarchy? At least in small doses.

History really, really does repeat itself. You just have to live long enuf. I gots low blood pressure because I plot revenge; I don't get pissed off.

Rick

[Jack M]

47k miles and it drives like new. seriously. not a rattle or a squeek anywhere. it's uncanny. and it was a lot cheaper than you might think - got it used.

[rhaskins]

I believe that. I got a Jetta assembled in Mexico, approaching 75,000 miles, runs great.

Wait a minute, isn't that a Pontiac you photoshopped a Beamer nose on? And what is with that child labor?

Rick

[BobD]

IBy the way, I am a free-enterprise guy, let the best and the brightest win and let the others suck hind tit (I grew up in North Dakota!!!!). But, my old man lived in a tent one summer during the depression because they had no place else to live. I do not wish that on anyone. If people do not make money because there are no jobs, they have to go somewhere. This economy is so inter-dependant (recycling is down because manufacturing does not need to products, the lumber industry is failing because the housing industry is waaaaaay down, xmas part-time jobs are down because people are not spending, etc.) that my job, your job could be next. I would rather have people making cars, repairing and building bridges, dredging harbors and polishing brass if necessary than begging in the streets.

Rick

That's the bottom line

BobD

[Jon Dahl]

But capitalism will work, and work properly, if the government would get its fingers out of the picture. Tax structure is killing manufacturing, and not how you think. When this country left manufacturing alone to thrive, and taxed imports as designed by the founding fathers, this was a prosperous nation. Perfect? No, but it was a good work in progress. Now it seems like the only export we have is war, with the manufacturing of the associated goods. Just a few unconnected thoughts here, yet true ones.

[BobD]

But capitalism will work, and work properly, if the government would get its fingers out of the picture. Tax structure is killing manufacturing, and not how you think. When this country left manufacturing alone to thrive, and taxed imports as designed by the founding fathers, this was a prosperous nation. Perfect? No, but it was a good work in progress. Now it seems like the only export we have is war, with the manufacturing of the associated goods. Just a few unconnected thoughts here, yet true ones.

We could also go back to 84 hour work weeks with no breaks and have the working children use their small hands to get into tight places. The world has moved on.

BobD

[bobdea]

But capitalism will work, and work properly, if the government would get its fingers out of the picture. Tax structure is killing manufacturing, and not how you think. When this country left manufacturing alone to thrive, and taxed imports as designed by the founding fathers, this was a prosperous nation. Perfect? No, but it was a good work in progress. Now it seems like the only export we have is war, with the manufacturing of the associated goods. Just a few unconnected thoughts here, yet true ones.

a part of that is absolutely right, tax imports. Free trade agreements have hurt all the countries involved in different ways. the only people that win are people who reap the profits of business in the short term.

the US is really interesting in that we are two generations behind the rest of the rich countries when it comes to labor law. I have a few friends that have worked in the US that grew up in europe that have been appalled by what is common practice here.

One, who's german and went to high school for a year in the US as well laid it out like this "the US is crazy, no one would every run a business, government or household like this in germany, italians would even revolt with a system like this"

[KingCrimson]

Rhaskins- finally got around to reading your post in it's entirety. But I digress.. You have to understand I'm way out of my league here.. (punk ass kid)

Not sure if all that was entirely directed at me..

[John Gilmour]

Look- the USA makes tons of trucks. Too many trucks since they are exempt from C.A.F.E. requirements. (I happen to like the Ford Expedition- a pretty good SUV) but they use way too much gas. And these silly multi fuel cars suck too- their MPG is shameful.

With CAFE implemented in the 1970's we were supposed to get better mileage but in 2006 America suffered the worst fuel economy per mile driven. americans ahve little desire to conserve energy.

The American companies only make money on the big SUV's which are are not helping our dependancy on foreign oil and motivates foreign wars over oil.

So I say... let 'em totally tank.

Have some corporate raiders come in and start--- piece by piece, to retool them and chop them up - to produce renewable energy products.

If we all bought fuel efficient foreign cars the foreign car companies economies of scale would go up and prices would become cheaper. We would use less gas.

Retooling to make auto production lines into solar cells and wind turbines and hydroelectric would be the right thing to do.

Turn sheet metal fabrication robots into making solar hot water heaters for the southern states.

Why try to save the worst car companies? My car is now 14 years old... and runs better than any American car made ..even though it has 100,000 miles on it. It is just designed by engineers not by cost cutters- and people running focus groups putting more cup holders and heated seats in cars to add "value"- as opposed to cars that maneuver and brake well with decent fuel economy and safety.

The Europeans are following suit with the cup holders.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-9866308-1.html

it has 13 cup holders... but no bathroom. Does it hold 13 people.....nooooo.

The Dodge Viper is the only USA car to get it right----> ZERO cup holders- no drinking and driving. but fuel economy...errrr.

Where would the 2,000,000 people dependent on the big 3 go to work? Well assuming that long term demand for automobiles is somewhat flat... I guess Toyota and others would buy some of the big three's tooling...and or plants and start pumping out cars in some of our old factories- at least our American engineers/factory workers would learn how to make a car that can last. Again prices would fall for foreign product. People would drive better cars for less money that were more fuel efficient and more reliable.

Having a gov't central planning committee is not a good idea IMHO. What would they know about cars or new technology??- the Gov't is the most behind the times of all industries (except defense). Hiring away Honda's and Toyotas CEO's is a brilliant idea- but unfortunately Japanese loyalty would never let that happen..

So may the big three die a quick death, the Unions can dissolve and perhaps profit sharing could be implemented while they convert these factories to making energy devices. The workers could make a lot more money that way..because renewable energy sales could actually result in a profit- at least gov't subsidies would go to something useful.

It is a lot more costly to import renewable energy goods than to make them here. Hell you can drive foreign cars around (on and off the boats onto autotrucks and autotrains) but try shipping a 200 foot long wind turbine to the USA from Japan... that is expensive.

________

Porn hub

[KingCrimson]

BobD- I forgot to mention in my last post, I completely explained why I thought your military statement was a moot point. Did you miss that?

[Surf Quebec]

Boy I like this forum, I learn a lot on carving and what my southern neighbors are thinking.

This summer I spent my vacation in France and Spain and I was seeing all those nice cars. A lot of them were Ford and Opel (belongs to GM) and I was thinking how come I do not see those in Canada ?

I drove a Toyota Sienna that just reach 240 000KM, (150 000 milles).

[Jon Dahl]

We could also go back to 84 hour work weeks with no breaks and have the working children use their small hands to get into tight places. The world has moved on.

BobD

Not sure how THAT is connected to this...And I do kinda like most of the labor laws we have.

I am w/o a doubt a bit of a radical, I suppose, but the total lack of understanding the average American has about taxation is incredible, and I was there, too, less that 2 years ago. I can barely wrap my brain around the code, but I can figure out who/what US Code 26 applies to. And the legal language used obscures it for most, but once you understand, it makes you do a double take, then you get some righteous indignation for being robbed by your own government. And this does fit the subject, as it is your money being used to do this welfare bailout.

Let us try a legal term, "includes and/or including". Blacks law dictionary, 6th edition;" Inclusio unius est exclusio alterius. The inclusion of one is the exclusion of another. The certain designation of one person is an absolute exclusion of all others...This doctrine decrees that where law expressly describes [a] particular situation to which it shall apply, an irrefutable inference must be drawn that what is omitted or excluded was intended to be omitted or excluded."

Ok, confused yet? Lets apply this principle. US Code 26 sec 3401© Employee. For the purposes of this chapter, the term "employee" includes an officer, employee, or elected official of the United States, a State, or any political subdivision thereof, or the District of Columbia, or any agency or instumentality of any one or more of the foregoing. The term "employee" also includes an officer of a corporation.

Note the word "includes"? What is excluded? Every thing else! Are you an "employee" as defined in the tax code? Are you Federally "employed"? Only you can answer that.

Wanna have a little more fun?? US Code 26 sec. 3121 (e)(2) United States; "The term "United States" when used in a geographical sense includes the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, Guam, and American Samoa." It looks to me like general taxing authority only happens under these and similar set rules. Kinda leaves the rest of us out of the picture, at least when it comes to a capitation aka a direct tax on "income".

Now anyone who knows how the IRS works knows the kind of screaming and jumping up and down they do if you tell 'em "Give me my property back!". That said, a properly submitted claim will eventually have to be dealt with, the law is the law, and they are bound by it. Now go reread this again, go search the tax code a bit, look up the book "Cracking the Code" by Peter Hendrickson and have fun!