Are metal boards really that much better?

[BadBrad]

Time to go to work, Have to test 13.2 vs 14.2m stubbies today and also testing NSR flex patterns. Another interesting test will be a hi camber vs identical lower camber classic. Yeah, this part of the job sucks;)

Bruce, if you want to ease your workload somewhat you can pay me to perform some of the test and evaluation for you. You could either pay me the going rate for a licensed professional engineer to come and perform T&E for you, or you could just send me various boards to test at my convenience.

[pogokoenig]

YES THEY ARE!

and i'm sticking with it

if the question was "which one you prefer metal or non metal" it would be a different story and you would get everyone's opinion, not the you didn't this way, but the question was Are metal boards really that much better? ...

Better for whom? Better for for what?

I own a metal board and a non-metal board? Both are great.

You cannot get a clear answer, because the question is already biased. Saying "Yes, they are" is exactly as wrong as saying "no, they are not."

Sometimes I have the impression people are tending to dogmatism.

[carvedog]

Sometimes I have the impression people are tending to dogmatism.

There you go. Now we have that to look forward to.

[Bruce Varsava]

Huh??

I thought the metal increased the dampness of the board...?

Nope

Inside of the metal is a rubber .2mm thick and top and bottom if you want most dampness. Its per board cost is exactly the same as the 2 sheets of Titanal so you don't use it to save money! Build without it and the boards really ring. They still hold well but don't have the same relaxed feeling. Take a piece of aluminum and beat it against your buddies head and the ringing result will be the same. Now add a piece of soft rubber almost the same thickness and see how he will now feel much more relaxed. GV would be a good target;)

Testing complete and I'm happy with all results. Even rode a NSR built for a 290 lb rider.

The high camber board required more concentration and was fun but IMO not worth giving up the ease of use for any gains which while in a turn were not very noticeable. It had 6mm more camber. The board wanted to slightly steer me rather that the other way around. Very preliminary results but as expected and some tuning would surely help as they were not tuned for specific performance at all.

Stubbies were fun in both 13.2 and 14.2m, short grippy and easy to ride

NSRs have had a nose mod so the initiation is more linear and responds well to varied pressure.

I mostly do this testing to verify on bench stiffness measurements to make sure when anyone gets a board, the flex is pretty close to what should work well for them.

My thoughts on the better or worse are of course better for me and in the feedback I receive , most others too. Hard to ride and dangerous stuff can be fun once in a while but to bring back the car analogies, I bet that their daily drivers don't have carburetors, bias ply tires, and no seat belts or air bags. Not that the new stuff is better or anything like that.

If a board lets me ride longer, I feel safer to ride it on more challenging terrain and is less likely to fold , I'd call that better.

Please note this is a comparison of my glass vs T boards only as I look forward to getting to SES this season and trying a few other makes.

Admittedly I am getting more cautious and like the daily driver;)

[D.T.]

Nope

Inside of the metal is a rubber .2mm thick and top and bottom if you want most dampness. Its per board cost is exactly the same as the 2 sheets of Titanal so you don't use it to save money! Build without it and the boards really ring. They still hold well but don't have the same relaxed feeling.

...

Stubbies were fun in both 13.2 and 14.2m, short grippy and easy to ride

NSRs have had a nose mod so the initiation is more linear and responds well to varied pressure.

I mostly do this testing to verify on bench stiffness measurements to make sure when anyone gets a board, the flex is pretty close to what should work well for them.

Reading you technical posts is making me anxious. I'm ready for my 182 Monster to arrive. :)

[Mike T]

Well,if the texallium sheet does not aid performance over regular glass,then Abel and Eric must have had some other trick up their collective sleeve to explain how well the board rode and performed.

If that's the case,I am even more excited to ride the new board.

I've ridden other boards with Texalium topsheets... and the only one that stood out as being grippy was a Tinkler with a full-on binding plate *and* titanal in the core. I suspect there's something other than Texalium that's making you like those boards.

I'm going to make it a point to demo one of Diablo's boards back-to-back with one of my Coiler metals. I never did get to take a spin on the Diablos during OES last year as I was letting everyone not from Bend get ahead of me in line. And after that, whenever I saw Abel he was with his son, so I didn't want to interrupt his family time :)

[GeoffV]

Nope

Take a piece of aluminum and beat it against your buddies head and the ringing result will be the same. Now add a piece of soft rubber almost the same thickness and see how he will now feel much more relaxed. GV would be a good target;)

ok BV now that just hurt

but I know I deserved it. Don't tell me your holding my Coiler 675 for ransom. I'm new carving GF to show up, I need to break her in...uh I mean ride her:eplus2:

[anewell]

Inside of the metal is a rubber .2mm thick and top and bottom if you want most dampness. Build without it and the boards really ring.

Interesting. That's a technique known as Passive Constrained Layer Damping - the energy is dissipated in shear motion within the soft layer; it probably heats the board up by some infinitesimal amount. Pretty much the same idea as that Dynamat stuff you can buy for car stereo applications.

So.. for the damp-is-good crowd: Who wants to buy a roll of Dynamat Xtreme, stick it to their non-metal rock board, and report back?

(Those fancy Head "intellifiber" boards would like us to believe they are doing an even more advanced "active" type of damping along the same lines.. instead of simply turning mechanical motion into heat, they are presumably feeding an inverse waveform of the motion into some sort of piezo (?) system, like a big noise-cancelling headphone... not sure I believe that hype, although it does work for electron microscopes... :rolleyes:)

[Chris Houghton]

I am constantly amazed by the number of people that have never ridden metal or texalium or whatever but have a very strong opinion on it. Amazing. Get out there and TRY IT you may be surprised. Ray and Bola offer good knowledgeable opinions, oh and Bruce too of course.

[Bruce Varsava]

I am constantly amazed by the number of people that have never ridden metal or texalium or whatever but have a very strong opinion on it. Amazing. Get out there and TRY IT you may be surprised. Ray and Bola offer good knowledgeable opinions, oh and Bruce too of course.

I figure I have tested close to 150 of my metal boards, almost every one unique to a certain degree. Of the 6 I tried yesterday 2 did not work well for me but were not designed for me so it was as it should be. Design is still the most important issue and no matter what you put in them, it has to be built to closely suit the rider to get full potential . Admittedly I have the East coast bias but isn't that where real riders all end up, let it rain and let it freeze

ICE:1luvu:

[MUD]

Something isn't quite right here.

Are you explaining the 1st Law of Thermodynamics in the first paragraph?

As far as snowboarding is concerned and the dampening in question, it comes down to natural frequency and the relationship between modulus and stress.

In essence, careful modeling and strategic placement of precisely selected materials will result in the desired effect.

Did you read the article Bola? http://www.earsc.com/pdfs/engineering/understandingdamping.pdf

Simply put, you are right.

More specifically, it appears to be a constrained layer damping system.

[Newmax]

I am constantly amazed by the number of people that have never ridden metal or texalium or whatever but have a very strong opinion on it. Amazing. Get out there and TRY IT you may be surprised. Ray and Bola offer good knowledgeable opinions, oh and Bruce too of course.

Hmmm, I'm no sure how you can be amazed!?

I went through this Fred again (Up to the Texalium discussion, cause this makes too much trouble on my statistics ), just for fun, counted the metal-lovers (who I think ride a metal or have demoed one) 16, then the "personal taste" fraction like ray (sorry for using your name :) ) that ride/tested metal already 7 (incl myself) and then there was one, 1, one more than zero, who didn't ride metal yet, but who was also just saying that he's afraid of testing one, cause he fears to want one then. So I'd put this guy into the metal-lover fraction! Now we're down to zero person in the Thread having a very strong opinion without riding...

I do like both and have ridden both, but for some irregularities I found, that my Cyborg Titanal (metal) is the liviest board (springy like hell), whereas the undertaker Zylon that I'd love to have as "bad weather - icemachine" is uberdamp, and the Undertaker Evo (some Metal inside) is in the middle of these two... strange isn't it? So, I agree on pogo and Ray, it's a choice of taste, there is no better or worse in general!

Cheers

[Jack M]

Nope

Inside of the metal is a rubber .2mm thick and top and bottom if you want most dampness. Its per board cost is exactly the same as the 2 sheets of Titanal so you don't use it to save money! Build without it and the boards really ring. They still hold well but don't have the same relaxed feeling.

Huh. So I take it you could build a metal board that was every bit as lively as a glass board?

Okay, so what is the metal buying us then? Torsional stiffness?

Take a piece of aluminum and beat it against your buddies head and the ringing result will be the same. Now add a piece of soft rubber almost the same thickness and see how he will now feel much more relaxed. GV would be a good target;)

No way man, he throws elbows!

then the "personal taste" fraction like ray (sorry for using your name :) ) that ride/tested metal already 7 (incl myself)

You can count me in that group, because as I said there are times when livelier traditional construction boards can be more fun. But for now my go-to board is metal. It's too darn versatile and fun.

[Chris Houghton]

I am amazed that you thought I meant only the opinions on this thread alone.

I meant riders in general, all discussions in person as well as on this board. Still, a few demo runs does not an informed opinion make. Virus especially, the person and the board need time to become suitably infected and connected.

We need more first person experience to form our personal opinion, rather than reading other people's thoughts. Prior metal is also different enough that it needs to be experienced under a variety of conditions before it is properly understood.

As Bruce said, if metal only makes the board easier to ride, is it not a good idea (and that was my point at the start of the thread)?

[Newmax]

I am amazed that you thought I meant only the opinions on this thread alone. I meant riders in general, all discussions in person as well as on this board.

ok, got that, sorry!

Still, a few demo runs does not an informed opinion make. Virus especially, the person and the board need time to become suitably infected and connected.

We need more first person experience to form our personal opinion, rather than reading other people's thoughts. Prior metal is also different enough that it needs to be experienced under a variety of conditions before it is properly understood.

As Bruce said, if metal only makes the board easier to ride, is it not a good idea (and that was my point at the start of the thread)?

Yes and no, my experience is that you can judge after some runs on a board, if it is fun for you to ride and if you come along with it. But then you are right: to really get used to a new board can take some days to find out it's "sweet spots" :)

Otherwise demoing wouldn't really help people finding a new board, but buying them instead and reselling it, if they don't like it after some 10 days of riding and trying something different. :D

@ Jack: so it's 15 to 8 Ok, I also think that it should not be necessary to always make clear that it is only your opinion when writing something on a messageboard... but on the other hand, some statements are made too much like "this is the truth, there is no other" like "Yes they are (better)!"

Cheers Max

[frunobulax]

The question may sound stupid.. have you experienced that metal boards are in general heavier (in terms of lbs, not the feeling) than "normal" boards or is this just the case with my two babies?

[Jack M]

The question may sound stupid.. have you experienced that metal boards are in general heavier (in terms of lbs, not the feeling) than "normal" boards or is this just the case with my two babies?

The Prior metal I had with no other topsheet was the lightest board I've ever had. It was fun that way, but the metal topsheet did get dinged up. The Coiler I have now (with topsheet above the metal) I would call average, not perceptibly heavier than normal for a 170.

[Mike T]

The question may sound stupid.. have you experienced that metal boards are in general heavier (in terms of lbs, not the feeling) than "normal" boards or is this just the case with my two babies?

My observations: Depends on the metal board! I had the same Prior 177 as Jack only stiffened for 190 pounds rider, it was light but not lighter than a Donek FC 175. (The Donek was very sturdy mind you!)

My Coiler NSR 185 is by far the lightest board I have ever been on in a similar length.

I had twin Coiler AM172's, identical shape-wise down to every detail, one metal and one glass, there was no perceptible difference in weight.

My Coiler AM 176 feels about the same as the 172's did. The Schtubby 171 demo actually felt a tad heavier than the AMs.

Bruce mentioned a couple different variations on construction, and I suspect these decks have spanned the range. I *think* (and I could be wrong - I'm not into materials the way many of y'all are) the NSR has no glass, just wood, carbon, rubber and titanal. Bruce would of course know for sure. That boards as I said is nice and light.

[Bruce Varsava]

You can get the boards up to 2lbs lighter (than what typically feels normal) if you want to make some sacrifices( topsheet, rubber, lighter cores etc). As mentioned, it depends on the construction ( at this time I am using at least 3 in carbon vs glass percentages) More glass = a bit more weight. Where you can really notice the happiness is on boards like the 188x 23 Monsters. Even though they are wider, there is an identical width amount of carbon to a narrower board so the weight penalty by going larger is not proportional to its size. Weighing boards like 72 glass AM vs a metal one, they are within ounces either way. I have added reinforcements to the binding areas on T boards which do make the board heavier but being right underfoot, it is not as bad as having the weight outwards from your feet. Each piece of Titanal weighs about 1 lb and the rubber is pretty heavy too ( will measure it someday) Topsheets about 3/4 lb.

It all adds up but they are still at or under what most would consider acceptable.

No doubt the material has allowed for some unique design freedom and that is why it is quite fun to work with.

I never thought I would have a 188 x 23 at about 8.5lbs with top installed, that is light considering its size!

BV

[Bruce Varsava]

Huh. So I take it you could build a metal board that was every bit as lively as a glass board?

Will be doing some R&D ! However I do feel that the lack of liveliness is part of the easier ride so don't want to give up too much of that. Have not done any of the most recent shapes with less rubber but will soon.Have done glass boards with full rubber too, so damp, they sounded like the epoxy never cured, too dead when tested by some knowledgeable BX rider I know. So this would lead me to believe the rubber even in glass is THE huge dampening factor.

Okay, so what is the metal buying us then? Torsional stiffness?

They feel pretty soft when you twist them by hand so its some magical property! Glass has strength running only in the direction of the fibers used and metal has strength going every which way, just a guess but that may be part of it. Metal is metal, its just such a huge part of the structure it is bound to feel different.

No way man, he throws elbows!

But he is a wiener

You can count me in that group, because as I said there are times when livelier traditional construction boards can be more fun. But for now my go-to board is metal. It's too darn versatile and fun.

Cheers, BV

I hope no one waiting for a board is reading all this crap:)

[GeoffV]

Cheers, BV

I hope no one waiting for a board is reading all this crap:)

Get back to work Bruce I want my board:lol:

[tex1230]

I hope no one waiting for a board is reading all this crap:)

No worries - mine is in the hands of UPS - keep posting!