Teaching a youngin'

[MUD]

Hey all,

I know a few of you have taught your children to snowboard at a very young age. I have been thinking of getting my daughter out. My first thought was to go for skis, then a board. Then I looked around a saw some great little boards that I think would work very well for a young first timer.

How old was yours when you started and how did you go about doing it? I have been thinking of just taking her to a local bump (packed out sledding hill) in my sorels as a first try.

Thanks in advance, Doug

[boarderboy]

but we're on the south Ice Coast, so we only get in a few days a year.

I had read that most kids shouldn't board ideally until they're five. Something about kids' awareness/acceptance of "blind side" risk and need for watchfulness (?)

My son, now 12, rides a "duck" freestyle stance (aargh!) so there's a real blind spot over his downslope shoulder.

If we'd lived near a slope, though, I probably would have started him earlier.

Best of luck!

[rwmaron]

My daughter started at 7 - she wanted to try boarding after 2 seasons of skiing. I was a telemark skier and figured that if a 7 year old could figure out snowboarding, then a college educated 51 year old could certainly get it, so we took a couple of lessons together.

My daughter found her ability to pick up a new sport faster than her dad quite gratifying.....

Russ

[bumpyride]

My daughter started at 7 - she wanted to try boarding after 2 seasons of skiing. I was a telemark skier and figured that if a 7 year old could figure out snowboarding, then a college educated 51 year old could certainly get it, so we took a couple of lessons together.

My daughter found her ability to pick up a new sport faster than her dad quite gratifying.....

Russ

Russ, you know "Old Dog-new tricks". I find that the old dog recognizes the theory of the new trick but old muscle and neuron paths are hard to redirect whereas the new "Puppy" is easily assimilating all, but does not necessarily recognize the basis for the theory. Luckily or unluckily the Puppy doesn't imprint the potential vestiges of the immortality complex of youth so they are at a greater advantage in learning and also getting hurt. Fortunately they are so rubbery unlike us who break much more easily. I started at 45 in soft snow. Hey are we going to do that chute up at Lutsen this year?

Having pontificated on that, each child is different. I think exceptional children have a great advantage learning early (around 5) but there is also the child that lacks the coordination to be strapped in and may in fact develop some very hard to break bad habits, or worse learn to hate it.

Motivation is probably the best impetuous for a child's learning. I'd vote for skis just to get the legs underneath showing that they can in fact do it, and then when they just can't stand watching Dad do it, let them give it a whirl on the board.

[Mike T]

My daughter learned to ski at 3. She's got a board, she did a couple of runs on it at age 4, a number of runs last season at age 5. Let me just say that most kids in this age range can do FAR more on skis than they can on a board.

As children develop they slowly the develop the ability to "cross the center lines" of their bodies. This takes long than most adults realize. For example, if you ask a 2 year old to bend over and touch their toes, they usually won't / can't. Once they learn to do that, it takes even long er to be able to touch left hand to right toes and right hand to left toes.

Kids need to be able to cross multiple center lines at once before they are ready to do anything other than be frustrated on a snowboard. I would say, if yours cannot touch opposite hands to toes without having to think about it, stick with skis.

Even then, the synaptic patterns have been developed but most likely the core strength to do more than a couple of runs probably has not. Our daughter can do more than 10,000 vertical feet in a day on skis and then get up the next morning and do it again. She might nap in the car for the 25 minute drive home but then she's her normal acrtive seklf when she gets home. 1500' on a board wipes her out.... she gets home and she doesn't feel like chasing the 70 pound lap dog around the house. That was last season at about age 5.5. Her musculature has really filled out over the summer (lots of time on her bike, no training wheels...) so I suspect she'll last a little longer on a board this season, but that she will still spend most of her snow time on skis.

Snowboarding is *that* much more demanding on most little ones' bodies. I've seen the same pattern with other kids about her age at Mt Bachelor, I've compared notes with a number of other parents. I recommend having skis as the primary snow toy for rhe young'uns. BTW, My for my daughter, "snowboarding" means alternating heelside regular, heelside goofy down the bunny hill, and sideslipping the "steep section of the bunny hill".

We use junior plate bindings and ski boots for snowboarding. The smallest sized soft boots are WAY too small for the smallest sized soft binding, as in, overhand on heel and underhang on toes no matter what.

We're not going to let her snowboard more than occasionally until she doesn't get so wiped out by it, and makes real progress towards toeside slipping.

[Steve Prokopiw]

it's all about what the kids are most motivated to do.Our oldest will be five on the 21st and our youngest will be three on the 15th.They have both skied and boarded,but are likely to want to do one more than the other occasionally.At three our oldest flatly refused to ski since mommy and daddy board.He did amazingly well on the size 11 Forum boots and xtra small bindings I found on ebay.It was however, like Mike T describes his daughter,mostly heelside at that age.At four he started being able to do slight direction changes to both edges and became proficient(hillariously so)at a toeside hand-drag stop.He now has the attitude (five going on 15) that if daddy does it it can't possibly be that cool;so he wants to ski again this season.

Our three year old tried boarding last season and could not smile big enough at the feeling of careening down the hill on a board(with mommy in hot pursuit or with a racer chaser attached)But,if he wants to ski instead this year we will be happy to oblige for the simple fact that he is still sliding with gravity and seems already born to it.

On the equipment side I am convinced after teaching professionally for 20 years that child sized equipment is still missing the boat designwise, and is still not proportiate enough in terms of flex and waist width.The notion of wider being better is incredibly misguided and that includes Burton's take on their kids line.The best performing boards for the tiniest riders that I have seen were made by Yellow Bus years ago and were the only boards for kids that I ever saw that were in really usable lengths and widths for tiny feet.This issue is still true even with women's boards which are still mostly only one centimeter narrower than men's even though their feet are often several centimeters shorter.The name of the game for success in entry level boarding is easy leverage over the edges,especially toeside.That's why I invariably reset what the rental shop sends out to be biased as far as possible to the the toside edge.This is usually a matter of moving the discs to adjust across the board rather than for stance width;this of course,limits stance width to one choice,but the trade off toward better toeside leverage is well worth it.

My overall point is that I don't buy the 'kids aren't ready to ride until a certain age'thing as much as most people do.The main issue for me has been that kid fit is as important as adult fit to ensure success and most kids are simply not set up for success.Poorly performing,fitting or sized equipment inhibits the adult experience so why would we think any differently when it comes to kids? This is a rhetorical question since most parents would answer that the financial burden of having properly fitted equipment at all stages of growth is prohibitive.The well established ski rental industry has answered this extremely well but the snowboard rental industry in nearly all facets is still,after all these years, woefully inadequate with few but some exceptions.

[carvedog]

Some other threads on the topic

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=15260

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5624

I think I covered it somewhere in there. But for me it when they are ready is a product of basic child development. Our nervous system develops from the head out. Thigh muscles ( more necesary for skiing) develop earlier than calf muscles. And maybe more important than the muscles themselves are the nervous systems that control them.

15 years teaching and full cert, I would be happy to elaborate off line or on, if you wish.

[Steve Prokopiw]

of Nathan and Evan's calfs.It's not like we are hard driving,must go to the Olympics parents ,but our boys are so physically active and outdoor oriented that they are certainly little exceptions to the rules that seem to govern parental and instructional guidance.BTW carvedog,I'm entering my 19th season as full cert snowboard;my kids could care less.

[carvedog]

of Nathan and Evan's calfs.It's not like we are hard driving,must go to the Olympics parents ,but our boys are so physically active and outdoor oriented that they are certainly little exceptions to the rules that seem to govern parental and instructional guidance.BTW carvedog,I'm entering my 19th season as full cert snowboard;my kids could care less.

Steve no need to get into pissing match about this. And as I said, it is more about the nervous system feedback than the muscle. If you can photograph that - I would like to see it.

I started my post above and got sidetracked, hit send, without seeing your post. So it was not a response to that.

The nervous system, in many ways develops like a muscle, the more it gets used ( say with fine balancing skills etc ) the more it develops or gets stronger.

There are obvious exceptions to every rule ( which I cited in one of the threads posted here ). And even though you have four years on me, I did go to two AASI/PSIA National Congresses ( by invitation ), many symposiums, attended children's clinics etc, have worked with many adaptive clients and programs ( even before there was much of an adaptive program ), was an examiner for several years and still do staff training for SV and my kids :sleep:don't care about that either.

:rolleyes:

[tufty]

My overall point is that I don't buy the 'kids aren't ready to ride until a certain age'thing as much as most people do.The main issue for me has been that kid fit is as important as adult fit to ensure success and most kids are simply not set up for success.Poorly performing,fitting or sized equipment inhibits the adult experience so why would we think any differently when it comes to kids? This is a rhetorical question since most parents would answer that the financial burden of having properly fitted equipment at all stages of growth is prohibitive.The well established ski rental industry has answered this extremely well but the snowboard rental industry in nearly all facets is still,after all these years, woefully inadequate with few but some exceptions.

I'm torn on this. I think there is a certain amount of that, but on the other hand:

Beginner ski equipment, especially rentals for small kids, tends to be bloody awful (at least round our way). It's only by being "local" that our kids get decent gear from the hire shops.

My eldest son. Last season he was 7 coming on 8, he's a very good ice hockey player, a better skiier than me already, good on a skateboard, can walk a tightrope, but he simply doesn't get snowboarding. With the physical ability he has, he should have been able to waltz it, instead he consistently ate snow. It hasn't put him off, but it's a bit soul-destroying to watch.

[Steve Prokopiw]

Agreed.So this is only my opinion and any who read this can take it for what it's worth,which might be very little:)

Even though I am a card carrying member, I have never been known for toeing the psia/aasi line entirely;especially as I tend to be more results oriented more than experiential or process oriented.Admittedly,I probably should have gone more into coaching than instruction.At the risk of contradicting myself however,my opinions are based on my experiences during which I have seen much better results when teaching the tiniest shredders on the most properly fitted equipment available.In fact we agree more than you might gather from this exchange.For example,I believe it makes smart sense to observe and study teaching methodology centered on nervous system development and the muscular strength, or lack thereof, that a given child has access to.But, I also believe it makes just as much sense to develop equipment that is designed to enhance student strengths and mitigate their weaknesses.So my opinion stands that skiing has tackled this extremely well with little peopleBut snowboarding,with it's collective 'weebles wobble but they don't fall down' approach to children's equipment is way behind in that aspect of product development.

On the other hand;when it comes to adults,with the exception of some larger entities stifling devopment to suit their own financial interests or just to follow fashion,ie much of the jib bonking manufacturing world ,many of the real leaps and bounds in technology made recently for adults have been centered around making it easier for more people to perform better with less energy ie,easier.A great example here is the use of titanal in both race and recreational carving boards.

tufty,I do understand that the quality of rentals varies with the location,so even ski equipment can suck too.

[ruwi]

Our local mountains in Vancouver, BC where I teach snowboarding for beginners recommends age 7 for snowboard and as young as 3 for skier. In a few occassions, I had a family with a 5 year old who convinced the Guest Services to include him in the lesson with the older brother and sister only to quit within half hour. The muscle for a very young kid is not fully developed to handle the wider snowboard than a skier who can start as early as 3.

ruwi

[Steve Prokopiw]

Our local mountains in Vancouver, BC where I teach snowboarding for beginners recommends age 7 for snowboard and as young as 3 for skier. In a few occassions, I had a family with a 5 year old who convinced the Guest Services to include him in the lesson with the older brother and sister only to quit within half hour. The muscle for a very young kid is not fully developed to handle the wider snowboard than a skier who can start as early as 3.

ruwi

And I should qualify all my previous arguments,er opinions:) with the fact that I always remind parents to invest in private lessons for little ones who are going to try snowboarding.It's pretty much standard industry wide that kids younger than seven or eight are required to take private lessons for boarding,although my wife who specialized for years teaching the youngest boarders at Beaver Creek once had a group of ten boarders no older than seven and mostly six years old.Sideslip heaven;or was it hell :)

[Jack M]

My son (6) started on skis at age 3. I've told him he can't snowboard until he's 7 (or was it 8, I forget).

I taught snowboarding professionally part time for 4 years during college. During that time I taught hundreds of people how to snowboard from scratch including a lot of teens, tweens, and kids under 10. I saw exactly TWO kids under 7 get it. They were exceptionally gifted athletically and had a strong desire to learn. Most kids under 7 were lucky to learn falling-leaf, which IMO, is a complete waste of time. The reason for this I believe is that snowboarding relies on skills and muscles that aren't used much on a daily basis, like the fronts of your shins and the insides and outsides of your thighs. Skiing is pretty natural, a kid can just stand up and glide. You can't just stand on a snowboard and do anything other than possibly get a concussion.

I see a lot more real little kids these days on tiny snowboards with ambitious parents in tow, but I think they would be better served learning skiing. Skiing on shaped skis now makes a carved turn even more intuitive and accessible to everyone. I think this is the gateway towards carving on a snowboard. If a kid never learns skiing, IMO they have a lot worse chance of feeling a carved turn happen. It's a lot harder to learn how to carve a snowboard if you don't even know what a carve feels like. In that regard I think learning how to ice skate would be more valuable to a tyke than learning how to snowboard.

[carvedog]

.....In fact we agree more than you might gather from this exchange. For example,I believe it makes smart sense to observe and study teaching methodology centered on nervous system development and the muscular strength, or lack thereof, that a given child has access to.............But snowboarding,with it's collective 'weebles wobble but they don't fall down' approach to children's equipment is way behind in that aspect of product development.

Steve - I agree that we are mostly in agreement. And I really think you hit the nail on the head about the atrocious lack of development in small snowboarding gear. More than anything what seems to affect early development and ability to snowboard at an early age is the general activity level of the kids involved.

The more active kids are the more they develop the feedback system necessary to be active and balanced. A kid who has sat on the couch playing Gameboy for the last three years is going to be lost.

Even with older kids you see this in the kid who won't or can't seem to even balance on one foot enough to skate around on the flat. As an instructor one might be tempted to label them unathletic, which may be true, but for a lot they just have not had the chance to develop those systems to the same point as their peers.

Even though I am a card carrying member, I have never been known for toeing the psia/aasi line entirely;................(and imho the heavily park weighted aasi)

Noticed you may have removed that second part and I can as well. But this is one reason that I am no longer active in aasi. And something I was in fairly adamant disagreement with many at both of the congresses I attended. part of our task was to come up with new standards in an attempt to have all divisions examining for the same things.

In a few occassions, I had a family with a 5 year old who convinced the Guest Services to include him in the lesson with the older brother and sister only to quit within half hour. The muscle for a very young kid is not fully developed to handle the wider snowboard than a skier who can start as early as 3.

ruwi those are guidelines the mountain has developed based on what the average kid can do. Every parent thinks their kid is above average ( I know I do ), but some really are. I had one kid in school groups who could honest to God ollie 4-5 feet high anywhere on the slope at will....at 5 years old.

He had the same lack of attention span of any five year old, but he grew up in an outdoor family and was completely unafraid as well as ahead of his age group. Which may be where Steve's kid are too. All I originally wanted to point out to Mud was that some kids will not be the same as Steve's, or mine or the little ripper I have in my groups, but will be much more based on what else they have done, how active they have been that what age they are.

[Steve Prokopiw]

It is a sad but true sign of the times that physically fit or agile kids are not the norm.Attention spans and a general respect for one's teachers are also severely lacking these days.I feel old for saying that.Hats off to parents that get the kids outside in just about any capacity.Let's do it more!

[jtslalom]

My daughter started snowboarding at 3. She is now 6 and looking forward to another season. I will start my son this year who is 3. The only advice I will give is go as much as possible and make it fun. Last year my daughter went about 15 - 20 times but only for 1 - 2 hours each time. When she was younger it was more about getting her used to the enviroment and just plain having fun in the snow. Last year was the first year that she really got intersted in riding and learning how to turn.

Good Luck

[MUD]

Thanks everyone for your replies.

So here is what I am thinking.

My daughter is almost three, physically she is doing pretty well, that is what got me thinking of getting her on a board first. BUT, and this is a big but, she has NO tolerance for frustration, and I mean NO. That is the one thing I didn't think of...... duh.

So too keep it fun it will definitely be skis. I'll keep the options open for later on if she wants to board.

Thanks again.

[Silver Bullet]

I have 3 girls that are now 10, 8 & 6. All three began riding at 3. They were pretty good by the time they were 4. I was pretty motivated to teach them, because i didn't want to spend my weekends making paper dolls.

I found that bribery and flat slopes worked best. Two or three runs a day for the first year. My girls expect hot chocolate in the lodge and M&Ms in my pocket until they were six. Now they are first and last chair gals and looking forward to hardboots.

This is an image of Isabella, my 10 yr old back when she was 4.

[Steve Prokopiw]

#1 Silver Bullet,I just gotta say ''Yeah dude!" That's what I'm talking about!

#2 Jack,First off I don't disagree that skiing first can be advantageous,but two out of what sounds like many is pretty dismal.You sure that was 'professional' teaching you were doing in college?:) As for teachability,I'll take a six year old boy over over a thirteen year old girl any day.Also,how many recreational skiers of any age do you know that carve? Additionally, in my experience, kids who have the opportunity to practice frequently tend to follow the examples presented to them.I ride occasionally with an eight year old(now nine) who has never skied but can carve in his soft boots better than many instructors.I rarely see young kids on skis pressuring the shins of their boots rather than sitting back.The ones that do stand out as much as the most skilled little boarders.As for the similarity of skiing to everyday activity,most people,kids included,would just fall on their butts if they walked or jogged in anything resembling the terribly unbalanced,back seat position they ski in.Skiing's supposed advantages for kids and adults such as snow plows and wedges are merely crutches that prolong the time it takes to become really proficient.Snowboarding may seem unnatural at first but even the slowest learners I have encountered have succeeded in relative terms as long as they stuck to it.Skiing is mostly easier for the parents.I wrote that with just a hint of sarcasm:)

BTW,Maureen just reminded me how much Evan's skiing,particularly his stance, improved last season after having snowboarded about ten sessions before finishing the season on skis.In my mind this had much to do with the very first point I made in reply to this thread;kids will become proficient at what they Want to become proficient at.It's up to us to provide them with the opportunity.

[Dave Winters]

We of course are lucky to live 2 miles from a major ski area. We made both our kids ski first, but put them on snowboards at 5. That doesn't mean they picked it right up. It was a lot of hard work on my part, if I do say so myself. (and I just did!)

FWIW, I strongly discouraged falling leaf turns...

Bribery is key, as well as rewarding for milestones. We used to keep track of personal best records, especially number of consecutive linked turns. Ride behind them yelling them out, "ONE!, TWO!, THREE!...TWENTY FOUR! TWENTY FIVE!.....

and make a big deal out of it when they break their previous best.

Gotta have something like gummy bears to give out on the lift for rewards...

A lot of hard work and good days spent on the bunny slopes, but it's all worth it now. Both boys, now 8 and 11 can ride strongly anywhere on the mountain. Billy, the oldest, has a hardboot setup and is learning to lay it over. He blows minds when he carves fakie at speed! He spent 4 days with me at SES last year.

I'll post some pics.

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[MUD]

kids will become proficient at what they Want to become proficient at.It's up to us to provide them with the opportunity.

There you go.

[bumpyride]

Thanks everyone for your replies.

So here is what I am thinking.

My daughter is almost three, physically she is doing pretty well, that is what got me thinking of getting her on a board first. BUT, and this is a big but, she has NO tolerance for frustration, and I mean NO. That is the one thing I didn't think of...... duh.

So too keep it fun it will definitely be skis. I'll keep the options open for later on if she wants to board.

Thanks again.

Good Choice.

[Jack M]

#2 Jack,First off I don't disagree that skiing first can be advantageous,but two out of what sounds like many is pretty dismal.You sure that was 'professional' teaching you were doing in college?:)

Har har. Actually I should qualify my numbers by saying that I was mostly teaching all-ages group lessons, and those probably weren't a good environment for young kids. A private or small group lesson of all youngsters would probably get better results. But either way, real young kids usually just don't have the muscles or balance to really link turns. I say again, falling leaf is a complete waste of time. Time that would be better spent skiing.

I just think that skiing is a valuable skill in two huge ways - 1st, it's easier for a young kid to learn, period. 2nd, knowing how to ski will make snowboarding a lot easier to learn when the time comes. Win win.

And if you think skiing is easy on parents, I take it you've never done a slow snowplow down an entire trail, holding your kid either between your legs, or on your poles next to you, or on a leash... omg, it's like doing wall-sits.

[Strider]

Skis at 2 and boarding at 4. I have to qualify both of these as I have been teaching both snowsports for 18 years. My son was motivated (not so much at 2) to hang out with me and my wife on the hill so he really paid attention to the lessons. Even at 2 he learned, but we only went out for about 30 minutes at a time with lots of resting and hot chocalate in the lodge in between sessions. He asked to try snowboarding at 4, and we did it, but he mostly skied that season because he could already do most of the hill on his skis and loved racing and running gates. Last year he really wanted to board more so he took a bunch of private lessons with a friend of mine who's an instructor (its amazing how young they quit listening to their parents:o) and really started to pick it up and can do linked turns down gentle blues now. It had more to do with his strength and coordination development than desire or teaching methods. He picked it up younger than most other kids I know, but he has been strong and coordinated for his age. Best advice, give it a try if you want, but if you want to have them be able to follow you for awhile instead of being on the bunny hill I'd go with skis first. The bonus is they learn the rules of the hill and how to use the different types of lifts which are definitely easier to use on skis.

I don't want to get in a pissing match, but I definitely agree with the people who point out the growth patterns of kids. They just can't do some things until their muscles and nerves mature a bit. There are always exc eptions to this, but few and far between. My background includes 12 years doing orthopaedic research (bone growth and healing) and my wife is a PT specializing in Neuro cases (instructor as well).