Fixing my heelside turns

[skategoat]

This season, I'm going to focus on improving my heelside turns. I don't have any video but surfing through YouTube, I found this vid of a Japanese rider and I would say his turns look exactly like mine.

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You'll notice on his heelsides, he counter-rotates his upper body and never really gets his front shoulder past the middle line of the board. His bum goes towards the snow and not his hip. It looks very much like the kind of turn you would make on softie gear.

Now this is what I want my heelsides to look like:

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His turns are much more relaxed and his hip much closer to the snow. Notice how his chest pretty much faces the same direction from turn to turn.

So, besides talent, what are the key fundamental differences between the two techniques? How do I get from video 1 to video 2?

Apologies to the rider in the first video if he is on this board.

[Jack M]

Video 1 is classic toilet sitting. Not counter rotating on heelside will help. Keep your trailing hand in front of you where you can see it at all times. And DO NOT let your leading hand cross over the board. Keep it off to the heel side of the board. The direction that your chest is facing and the direction the board is pointing form an angle. (for some people it's zero) That angle shouldn't change a whole lot from turn to turn (unless you've perfected the EC rotation method, but IMO that's wasted motion).

But here's a biggie... most toilet-sit turns happen in this sequence: bend knees first, tilt board up on edge second. It needs to be the other way around. Not that you should ever be riding with straight legs, but don't "sink" into the turn with your knees just to get low. A carve starts by pressuring the edge, tilting the board up, and leaning in to the turn. Use your knees only as shock absorption. You'll notice in these pictures that my knees aren't bent a ton, but my butt is very close to the ground.

[Bobby Buggs]

Thats the Carve Father doing MY MOVE. We were together at Crested Butte during that Shoot and I was yelling at him calling him Style Stealer:eplus2:

We dont do that style much unless were phocking around. I know he does more of the traditional reach for the board edge with the right hand on heelsides, That is something I work on as well.

Reg foot riders should be able to see that right hand out in front of them toward the nose of the board on heelside turns, Imo it should never be behind or even with your hip. Now this is the style we like to ride, not saying its the "best" or most technically sound, just what we try to do.

sorry about the quality of this image but look at the right hand.

His turns are much more relaxed and his hip much closer to the snow. Notice how his chest pretty much faces the same direction from turn to turn.

Ronnie aka the Carvefather is a Gifted athlete. I ride many days a year with him and I can tell you there are very few people in the US that can replicate the positions he can on a board. Not saying its impossible but some of it IS god given. Flexibility is one key, that’s something I missed when they were giving out talent.

[queequeg]

Although I'm not a super strong carver, I think I have a decent heelside. Something that I think is very helpful to prevent toilet-sitting on heelsides is to begin looking at the centerpoint in your arc (the middle of the imaginary circle you are following) very early in your turn - this will pull your outside shoulder forward and help you bring that outside hand in front of your forward knee more naturally. Notably, it is very hard to look at the inside of your turn if you are sitting on the toilet, so this movement should help check the toilet position.

I think the first photo jack posted is a good example if this, he's looking way into the turn. That helps me a lot when I feel like I'm not doing something right, it seems to pull my body into position early.

[biggerwrangler]

The more i red the more i remember from last year.

would more angle on the bindings help this?

think i might have discovered my heelside issue.

btw jack is your board suppose to bend that much? second pic.

[Jack M]

would more angle on the bindings help this?

btw jack is your board suppose to bend that much? second pic.

More binding angle might help, but don't go too far inboard of your edges. Just making sure you don't have boot drag is the most important thing. High binding angles isn't a prereq for good heelsides.

Yeah, boards can bend a lot in a carve. That's a 186, so there is a lot of board to bend. But that does look extreme. Something may have happened quickly right at the moment the picture was taken, I don't remember.

Queequeg is right on about looking into the turn. If you're just looking down the fall line, that is a huge invitation to counter rotate and sit on the toilet.

[skategoat]

I can see that Carve Father is stylin' with the hands, particularly in the first scene but I really like his body position through the turns.

Once in a while, I do these turns right and it feels great but, I'm just not consistent enough. Great tips guys.

[colintkemp]

I agree with Queequeg about Jack's first photo (great one, Jack): One training technique we used to use was to rotate your shoulders enough so that you could touch the snow with your off hill hand. (E.g., assuming regular footed on a heelside turn, rotate your shoulders so that, when you are in the apex of your turn, your right hand is reaching across your left (leading) thigh and can touch the snow.) Admittedly, it is a bit dramatic/exaggerated, but it will help you get the rotation right.

Toilet sitting is a great way to ensure that an insufficient amount of weight will be transferred to the effective edge. And besides, it makes you look like you are taking a ...

[Jack M]

I agree with Queequeg about Jack's first photo (great one, Jack): One training technique we used to use was to rotate your shoulders enough so that you could touch the snow with your off hill hand.

Yeah, I'm doing that in my first pic. Thanks.

Toilet sitting is a great way to ensure that an insufficient amount of weight will be transferred to the effective edge.

Well, I think I know what you're trying to say, but that's not really accurate. I mean, unless you can levitate, you can't put any less weight on the edge just by standing one way or another. The problems with toilet sitting are that it's not a balanced position, and you usually can't tilt the edge of the board up high enough to match your speed while hanging your arse out like that. As you go faster, you have to tilt the board up higher to make a truly carved turn. It's very difficult or impossible to do that while sitting into your turn.

[queequeg]

The problems with toilet sitting are that it's not a balanced position, and you usually can't tilt the edge of the board up high enough to match your speed while hanging your arse out like that.

This isn't very articulate but: I think the problem with sitting on the toilet, is that it brings your head/shoulders too high and as a result their (significant) inertial force ends up working against you rather than for you. Notably, there is a lot more weight in your head and torso than there is in your ass and legs (well ... for most of us there is), so their positioning is likely to exert significant influence over the shape of your turns. If your head and torso are too high their inertial force generated is going to have the effect of wanting to roll you over your skyward edge, but if they are low, the effect will be to apply powerful static pressure to your cutting edge - keeping your edging firm and your turns balanced. I know that whenever I find myself sitting on the toilet, I always feel very precarious - as though at any moment my body will be hurled downhill towards the fall line. I also feel like I have less edge grip.

When you're sitting on the toilet throughout your turns, it feels like are fighting a transition to the toeside throughout the entire length of your carve, because this weight that is focused too far up is trying to pull you over the skyward edge.

hold a heavy hammer in your hand, by the end of the grip, such that the grip is perpendicular to your arm. now spin around. The inertial force generated by the hammers head will make it very difficult to keep the grip perpendicular to your forearm. Do the same thing with the hammer head resting on your forearm, while cupping the bottom of the grip, and you will feel pressure exerted down the shaft of the grip, but the hammer will naturally stay in place, because its inertial force is exerted DOWN the grip shaft, instead of laterally across it.

[colintkemp]

Re toilet sitting: Jack, maybe we are saying the same thing, but proper shoulder rotation will increase the weight transferred to the section of the edge leading up to and directly behind the front boot.

[Jack M]

This isn't very articulate but: I think the problem with sitting on the toilet, is that it brings your head/shoulders too high

Mmmm, I don't think that's it. My head and shoulders are still pretty high in those pictures. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, it's much better to be more upright like that than to be hunched over with your chest on your knees. You have better balance with your head up.

Notably, there is a lot more weight in your head and torso than there is in your ass and legs

On average, one's center of gravity is a few inches below the belly button.

Re toilet sitting: Jack, maybe we are saying the same thing, but proper shoulder rotation will increase the weight transferred to the section of the edge leading up to and directly behind the front boot.

agreed, it will help you get into a better position for pressuring the nose.

[utahcarver]

When reading Jack's excellent BOL article "Toeside Problems" last season, it really helped me when he referred to the upper body as being stacked on top of the lower portion (hips, legs). When I look at the top video that Skategoat posted, I don't see the riders upper body stacking on top of his lower body during his heelside turns. I'm guessing that there is not enough rotation in his hips, and has been pointed out, his shoulders. I edited this to make sure everyone knew I was referring to both heelside and toeside turns but, more importantly, to what Skate's question was about (heelside).

Am I understanding this correctly? Thanks!

Mark

[queequeg]

Mmmm, I don't think that's it. My head and shoulders are still pretty high in those pictures. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, it's much better to be more upright like that than to be hunched over with your chest on your knees. You have better balance with your head up.On average, one's center of gravity is a few inches below the belly button.

It's true that your head and shoulders are still fairly high in the photos, but when I see people sitting on the toilet, they are much higher. The inertial force of your upper body may not be the only thing at play here, but I definitely thin it is in play.

Your COG is around your belly button when you are standing, with knees straight, and not moving. It moves around depending upon how compact or long you make your body. that said, the position of your inert COG doesn't have much relevance to the effect of unbalanced inertial force. Even if most of your weight was lower down on your body, any amount of inertial force being exerted out of line with the column of pressure (down on your cutting edge) is going to try and bring your body over the unused, skyward edge - I think reducing that effect is probably a good thing.

Because you are not sitting on the toilet, your "front" arm and shoulder has been brought down closer to the snow, focusing its inertial further down on your cutting edge. That is going to have a positive effect.

I don't think it's the only thing in play but I definitely think sitting on the toilet causes the inertial forces exerted by your body to come out of line with the cutting edge dramatically. If your legs are stiff and you sit on the toilet, it will bring your shoulders over the inactive edge, drawing your inertial force over the board. If your legs are bent while sitting on the toilet, then your ass/torso are going to exert inertial force *under* the cutting edge of the board, which won't have the effect of making your body want to go over the other edge, but it will make it hard to pressure your active edge correctly.

[pogokoenig]

...Keep your trailing hand in front of you where you can see it at all times. And DO NOT let your leading hand cross over the board. Keep it off to the heel side of the board. The direction that your chest is facing and the direction the board is pointing form an angle. (for some people it's zero) That angle shouldn't change a whole lot from turn to turn (unless you've perfected the EC rotation method, but IMO that's wasted motion).

...

Hmmm, is that a common truth or just a description of your own riding style?

Why not move in a proper rotation. That has at first nothing to do with EC-Style but with a very good fun-delivering tool. I state: The more you move your upper body in a rotation, the more fun you have.

Have you ever tried carving a narrow, bumpy steep without a strong rotation? On my opinion rotation is not absolutely essential but provides a very smooth ride and helps you managing diffficult sitiuations.

By the way: With a good performed rotation, you can prevent yourself from looking like a question mark during the heelside.

[Rob Stevens]

You can put hip / ass on the snow, riding like the first or second rider. The shoulders / hand doesn't need to go there. This is a distinction that needs to be made in the face of "toilet sitting" being seen as something to avoid.

Like putting a foot down in a corner on a bike, it feels more secure if the tires go away. Keeping both feet on the pedals in the corner will result in the same arc, but won't give the same confidence, if you think you'll slide out.

The interesting thing in that comparison is that you're more likely to slide out if your foot is off... You'll just be ready for the results of having more weight to the inside. This is the same in snowboarding: The more committed you are to the inside of the arc, the more you'll have to count on the snow to not let go.

I think the first riders problem is that he is a little behind his feet in the torso (hips and shoulders) making him slow and stiff when trying to steer from the core. You can see this clearly in the assymmetry of his turns. The toeside turn is tighter than the heelside. He should come into alignment with the hips and shoulders, when compared to the angles in his bindings. Rotating forward more than that in the shoulders from a position in line with the average angles of the bindings is really not the issue, as the driving force for steering (the combination of edging and pressure) the board should come from the core (bottom of the ribcage) down.

Do you need to put your hand down to get your hips down, generating the edge angle and foot pressure you want? No.

Will this technique give you the style you're looking for? Sure.

Once again, I will say that the rider over-committed to the inside of the turn, through heavy rotation, is more likely to not recover from a slide out than the rider "sitting on the toilet". Most racers will stay a little more centred, front-hand-over-the-nose, to be closer to a recovery position.

In combination with a quality, well-tuned board, a good rider will be able to employ the effect they want in given snow conditions.

Jack's technique is very pretty and is perfect for when conditions are hero-like, much like the snow is his great pictures, though you'd probably be better off on ice being less rotationally committed.

My 2 cents as trainer to Canadas top instructors. Please, don't take that the wrong way... I just want you to know that I'm not guessing, throwing things at you I hope will work.

[Jack M]

More later, but my first picture was taken in January last year at Sunapee, and the conditions were "frozen granular". Not bad, but not hero. The second pic was from ECES04, which anyone who went can tell you, was not hero.

Bottom line, it's all balance. Whatever position gives YOU the most balance, use it. But toilet sitting will never be that.

[0815-fahrer]

+1 for pogokoenig

especially when it gets tough, like icy, narrow, shoved bumps or crowded, I need the rotation to get down at all..

or at least to keep my speed under control, not to be a human rocket.

whoever has been to the SES08 and met the crazy germans (Max, Markus and me, although I am Dutch:eek:) and were on the slopes, might have seen this rotation technique. Max can do it in perfection, you can hardly tell the difference between front and heelside.

main difference is that the upper body is perpendicular to the board (as much as possible) and you rotate shoulders inward, over your normal point about 30-45 degrees (depending on board etc.)

ach... here´s the vid to that... enough of blabla

go out and try...

if it doesn´t work for you, what have you lost?

PS: tried a Donek FC1 with this few weeks ago.... yammy... that went good!!! so it´s not a board problem.

[Surf Rat]

I like the riding in vids one and two.

the heal side in video one is more stable and good for race tech.

the heal side in video 2 is very closed legged. probably running front and back canting. looks fun and best for easy carving snow.

when it gets icy I would go for the less edge angle of video one.

this is just my opinion

Bryan Ratcliffe

[Coldrider]

In addition to the different orientation of the upper and lower body already noted, the two riders are using different movement of the legs to transition between turns.

The first rider extends his legs during the finish of the turn, often 'popping' or catching air at the transition. Rider #2 flexes his legs through the turn's finish, giving his turns a lower, smoother look.

In addition to the suggestions you've already received, if all of your turns resemble rider #1 (extending the legs through the transition), IMO it would be a good idea to develop the ability to flex through the transition as well.

It's a useful move to help manage forces through the turn's finish. Keeps you low to the snow and feels good too.

[carvedog]

spinal flexion/extension and upweighting are all you really need.

stiff legs - not so good. loose legs - good. flexy slinky back - good.

words confuse too much.

weebles wobble but they don't fall down.

[yyzcanuck]

Once in a while, I do these turns right and it feels great but, I'm just not consistent enough.

Here's my take on where you are (and where I've been, left, gone back to, left again, and so on). You can ride the way you want and it feels great but... you can't always get those results. Ride more! When I was going out 7-10 times a season, I could sometimes get it right. When I was going out 25-30 times a season, I could nail it repeatedly. I'm down to about 2 days a season... my form isn't going to be so pretty this year.

It comes down to training. Repeat the same motion often enough and it becomes second nature. What other sports do you participate in? Hockey? Try to recall how long it took to master a nice low slap shot. Do you even have to think about it now? It probably just happens 'cause you've done it about 1001 times!

I'm not knockin' on you, just offering up some thoughts on how my progression went.

[skategoat]

Dave:

I've been playing hockey for 40 years and my slapshot can barely bend the twine. I'm more of a Gary Dornhoefer, garbage goal kind of player.

But I get your meaning. I plan to do more riding this year and will try to follow through on some of the suggestions here. I should also get some competent instruction.

[Mellow Yellow]

my advice - follow somebody that is better than you....

After following Jack =

After following Helmet and PaulK = :D

;)

[NateW]

Keep your trailing hand in front of you where you can see it at all times.

Shred G gave me that same tip a couple/few years ago and that alone made a huge difference in my heelside ability.

It just pulls my whole body into a posture that works better.

Feels better too.