A push in the right direction

[smallfry506]

Hello,

I have been a lurker around here since i met a hardbooter locally and he turned me on to this site. This will be my 16th winter as a snowboarder. For the past 5 years i have developed into a freeride only boarder (softboots). Currently im on a Never Summer titan 169 with catek pro/limited bindings along with Burton Driver X's.

Stats

5'11, 200lbs and a size 27.5-28 boot.

I really didnt want to start this thread but the more i read the posts and welcome center information the more confused i became.

Originally i was going to get a 09 prior wcr metal (177). However reading through the posts here i cant help but notice most people seem to own multiple boards in widely varing lengths and constructions. Which leads me to question myself, what is really best for me?

All im looking to do is carve groomed runs (lots of softboot setups for other conditions) on the east coast.

Boards im considering:

Prior WCR metal 177

Virus x-treme carving board 176

Nidecker Race GS

Are these boards in the right neighborhood? Or am i way off?

I have searched and read the articles please forgive me for this post (everyone must hate to see these).

Thank you,

Kyle (soon to be hardbooter)

[Silver Bullet]

I remember being in a similiar situation a number of years ago. I could not decide between an F2 Speedster and a Silberpfeil, so I bought them both. I am glad that I did. The boards were very different. The Silberpfeil was very turny and easy to learn on and great for crowded slopes, the Speedster is fantastic for letting 'er rip at high speeds.

That said, if there would have been a Prior Metal board back then I would have gone that route. That board is very forgiving, yet rips in all conditions. Think Indy car grip with a Cadillac ride. I have not ridden the other two you mention, but I am saving up for a Prior myself.

Best of Luck,

sj

[smallfry506]

Its so strange, i have been snowboarding for a while and yet this side of it is so foreign. I guess it comes down to me being affraid that im to un-informed to make a proper decision! Thanks for your vote of confidence! That being said do you think im looking at the proper lengths?

thanks again!

[NateW]

I'm 6'0", around 180 pounds, and I like boards in the 170-180 range so I'm not gonna try to change your mind about length.

I suggest something with a medium-ish waist width (19-20cm) and medium sidecut (11-12m) and medium stiffness (I wish there were numbers for that). When you're comfortable on it, keep an eye out for a used board that's significantly narrower (2cm or more) and/or longer (10cm?) and/or stiffer and/or bigger sidecut radius (add 20% to your sidecut radius). Then ride it until you're comfortable on it and decide if you like it.

Keep an eye on the used gear section here, you can get boards a couple years old, try them, resell them, try another. :)

[BlueB]

I suggest something with a medium-ish waist width (19-20cm) and medium sidecut (11-12m) and medium stiffness

You've just described that Prior metal he wants... :)

Smallfry, welcome on board! Go with Prior, you won't be sorry. Easy to ride, yet you can get as aggressive as you wont on it. Great edge hold, too.

[Istvan]

Just my 2 cents on the Virus X-treme. It is a way more forgiving stick then the rest of the virus fleet. Especially the one I have in Titanal version. it is a great board for laying down linked turns on a steep and groomed terrain. It is a special tool for doing the EC style due to its width, radii and dampness.

On the other hand, on less steep, more crowded, or less groomed slopes I prefer narrower boards. They are much more fun.

Cheers

[pokkis]

One question is that how wide board you are after?

Prior Titanals are awesome boards so i recommend them warmly.

But if you want wider one for more EC-style riding, check with Dean at Prior about Blackjack or Fatjack option

I mean switching from soft setup to hard one will be easier with wider board, plus extra benefit with your shoe size (same as mine) you can even ride FatJack on softboots also, if you have supportive boots like my Hurricanes.

[tex1230]

of the boards you listed, my choice would be the prior.

But, Honestly, for your first experiment with a carving board, and being on the east coast where hills are shorter, crowds are plentiful, and trails are narrow, I'd go a little down the food chain - Donek FC2 - 171 or 175, Madd 170, Coiler RC2 , or something around those - no reason th spend the $$$ for a full metal board until you know you're going to stick with it.

Regarding width, everyone is different. I was very uncomfortable on wider boards, but that is something you'll have to figure out for yourself.

If you're riding Vermont, stop by Startingate (near Stratton) - they are the only place around here with demos - Donek and Coiler, and possibly some others.

[Greg]

I am in the same boat as you. I have been riding for soft boots for 11 years, and decided to move on to a hard boot/carving combo. And I am 5' 11", 200 lb., but I've got big feet, 29.5 (12.) Virtually all of my riding has been upstate NY: narrow runs, sometimes TONS of people. So conditions can deteriorate quickly and early afternoon can find all sort of crud.

I talked with salespeople at Stratton, and with Bomber, Donek, Coiler. (They were ALL GREAT!!) I settled on a Prior 4WD in 174 cm., and TD2 bail plates. It was generally recommended that I consider the low 170 length, and even the 169, because of the need to be able to dodge people. I decided on the 174 4WD for my weight and edge hold, and because of its' nose characteristics ability to bust crud. So I was looking for a single all around board to learn on, and didn't cost an arm and a leg. (I got a low use demo board.)

If I get good at this, I like what NateW said about going longer, narrower, longer side cut radius later on.

You've got great info from guys with lots of experience. Good luck!

[BadBrad]

For someone new to hardboots I would recommend getting a used slalom-type board rather than a GS-type board. A shorter turnier board is easier to learn carving on and doesn't require high speeds and high effort to bend the board into a carve. Look for a good used board so you don't spend a lot of money on a new one. If you don't like it you can probably sell it for close to what you paid. Or, you could buy a few used boards of different widths and lengths and sidecuts and after trying each one decide which one works best for you.

I bought a used Burton Alp several years ago and rode it for several seasons. It carved pretty well and was forgiving in the bumps. It was also easy to maneuver around the crowds on my small local hills. I now have a couple of Priors and a Madd, but I can still enjoy the Alp and I still have it as my rock board.

[queequeg]

I've never been on a WCR metal but from what everyone says, it would be a great board to start off on, if you're willing to plunk down the cash right off the bat.

I agree with tex that although some people really are growing to like wide boards, some do not (I don't like wide). So it may be a good idea to try and see if you can demo a few different waist widths before you buy.

Also agree with tex that if you want to save a little $$ you can get a new Donek FCII (standard construction) considerably less expensively than you can a new Prior WCR Metal. I am shorter and weigh less than you and I ride an FCII 175 on the east coast so either the 175 or the 171 would probably be fine for you to start off on, though they're both fairly pretty stiff (I'm not sure how stiff the priors are). Looking at a metal or olympic Donek would considerably change the economics of your decision of course.

I also agree that a more slalom oriented board is a bit easier to get started on, because it doesn't require high speeds to lay down turns. So you may want to look for something with a shorter radius.

Regardless of what you choose, I would buy used to begin with.

[Wun]

For someone new to hardboots I would recommend getting a used slalom-type board rather than a GS-type board. A shorter turnier board is easier to learn carving on and doesn't require high speeds and high effort to bend the board into a carve. Look for a good used board so you don't spend a lot of money on a new one. If you don't like it you can probably sell it for close to what you paid. Or, you could buy a few used boards of different widths and lengths and sidecuts and after trying each one decide which one works best for you.

Sounds like a great rule-of-thumb for the average Joe. However...

This will be my 16th winter as a snowboarder.

As for me, '08/'09 is to be my first hardbooting season as well. Having almost ten seasons under my belt for snowboarding, while reading and incorporating technique from BOL tech articles and Carver's Almanac for the past two (maybe you've neither done the same nor thought about pristine, skidless carving, but 16 years is a lot...), I think you an' I can cope with the steeper learning curve, especially with how strapped for cash I am (dunno how broke you are). Besides, I'm already at the point where I wait for the slope to clear, then bomb down as fast as possible while laying down as best of trenches my freeride plank will bestow me. (G-force feel doesn't really appeal to me; maybe that will change when I'm riding on the real thing.)

Probably the biggest argument (whether or not it's actually a good, valid point) I make in jumping into a GS board is that I don't eventually outskill the slower, turnier board in a couple seasons and have no money to drop for another deck, if I end up longing to make bigger turns at faster speeds. (I already owe my mom some cash, and I still need intec heels to complete my setup:flamethro) Of course, you can resell a deck and buy another, but some of us are lazy. Besides, I still have my freeride+softboot setup if I really wanted to keep to tighter turns and slower speeds.

People here aren't truly debating and urging you to go SL, but I guess I'm still dropping a line to encourage you to take the gamble and walk the same road as I. Maybe you can be cocky like me, and have faith in your abilities such that you will have a great time and won't feel handicapped by having chosen a GS-ish deck if you ended up getting that Prior. (A proper cant/lift setting suited to you will be integral if your setup is quite stiff, though.) There seems to be an apparent portion of people (though not majority by any means) that learn on longer, bigger sidecut boards anyway.

I picked up a 172 Speedster RS myself. A lot of people, however, report RS speedsters having exceptional handling though in accordance to its SCR. Anyway, I only weigh a buck twenty, and I hope stiff flex won't bite me in the ass:freak3:. Cheers for our first season on plates:lurk:

[Allee]

Wun has a point. The SL sticks are definitely easier to learn on, but this guy is not a learner, and with that much experience he'll be pulling mach schnell on a carver in no time. An SL stick isn't going to last him half a season. I don't ride that hard or fast and I sure as hell haven't been riding for 16 years, and I can't even ride an SL board now - I find they're too nervous and high-strung for the riding I like to do.

The Prior sounds like a great choice. Awesome board, right length, nice and damp and completely forgiving of the errors that you're going to make starting out (a la the stuff the nose and head bounce:))

Most of us own multiple boards because a) we're gear whores, or b) it's pretty hard to demo this stuff anywhere, most of the time you end up buying it if you want to ride it. Both of these options are acceptable...

[BlueB]

I don't see why anyone should outgrow an SL board... It's just a different ride. It's great to practice timing, re-find your balance (smaller sweet spot), highly phisically demanding, great to navigate tight/crowded spots, great to carve on ice or super steeps, more fun on shorter runs...

However, an AM ride is just a wider, longer, de-tuned version of SL board. If I had to choose one, I would rather have an AM, for it's versatility. Also better for learning.

Now, that WCR-M 177 is not a ful-blown GS board, scr is only 12m - one of the most versatile radiuses, in my opinion. It would still let you ride bigger or shorter arcs and flex is mellow enough for learning. Nose is bigger then on most of compareble boards, adding a bit of AM capabillity. If you had cash, just go for it.

Another super choice would be Coiler AM-T 172. Almost the same spec as Prior, but wider.

If metal is not a must, consider Prior 4WD 174, or even 179. You should be able to find an used one.

Then final sugestion:

Get the boots and bindings first - your Titan would rip an arc or 2 with the plates too! Advantage is that you'll spend less to start you off on plates, and get the feeling for it with flatter angles your freeride board would alow.

[BlueB]

Wun,

Wrong flex always bites you... Even if fun at high speed, it would ware you out quicker.

Then, for just bombing the slopes, nothing quite beats the old straight skis ;)

[smallfry506]

Wow guys thanks for the great reception! It really is amazing how much information you guys hold!

Im going to go ahead with the prior. Like i said i was hesetant at first simpley because of the vast differences between what most of you guys seem to ride and prefer. I have no doubt that i will enjoy this change immensly, as this is what i have been trying to perfect for the past 10 years on softboots. I do understand the whole no where to rent so buy it to try it.

Last question for me. Boots? The Head stratus pro, are they actually made by head? Cant seem to find them on the head site,thats why i ask.

Thanks again guys!

[Wun]

Yup, same company that makes the tennis stuff. You may have to rely on online third-party retailers if you're looking for new. The Stratos boots used to be made by a company called Blax, but Head bought out Blax, or something along those lines. I don't know the details.

Edit: reading succeeding post.. not a hundred percent sure now. i looked at the logos of Head and the Head that makes snowboard stuff; they coincided, so i just assumed from there that they're the exact same thing.

[BlueB]

All Head boots are made by Dalbello.

Bomber store sells Head Stratos Pro. Planty on ebay, too. Tex has a pair of used ones in your size.

To size yourself properly, you might want to go to a ski store and try out Dalbello Reflex, Carvex or CRX. They are exactelly the same shells as Stratos.

[smallfry506]

All Head boots are made by Dalbello.

Bomber store sells Head Stratos Pro. Planty on ebay, too. Tex has a pair of used ones in your size.

To size yourself properly, you might want to go to a ski store and try out Dalbello Reflex, Carvex or CRX. They are exactelly the same shells as Stratos.

Thanks i had hoped they were made by head. Being employeed by a shop that deals with head i was hoping to take advantage of the perks but o well. Ahh we had a frost today....getting closer!

Thanks again guys these were all the answers and insight i needed to proceed without worry!

[queequeg]

Last question for me. Boots? The Head stratus pro, are they actually made by head? Cant seem to find them on the head site,thats why i ask.

There is no info on the HSP online from head, that I can find. The Molds were bought from BLAX by Head, they do seem to be made by Dalbello. They have some unique advantages and disadvantages. They have really good heel hold-down but are pretty stiff. A lot of people like the liner that comes with them stock but I would recommend using a Dalbello ID liner (Gold), that is an extremely comfortable liner in this boot. They have a short sole length compared to most boots (except for UPZ) so if you have big feet, they are probably a good choice.

Note about the Head Stratos Pro: this is a STIFF boot stock. I am in a pair of HSP's right now and I struggled a lot last season with them because they are stiff. You see a lot of people in HSP's riding way too stiff and unable to get their body in the proper position due to the stiffness of the boot. It is not necessarily an appropriate boot for a beginner, due to the stiffness. You are taller and heavier than me but I would not be surprised if this boot is still be too stiff for you to start out on stock.

As a reference, I way between 178 - 182 lbs, 5'9".

That said, there are some modifications to the HSP boot that you can make to soften it up significantly. I wouldn't go with the HSP unless you are comfortable with the possibility that you may have to mod them to make them softer.

Once you mod the HSP you can put a BTS on it to adjust the stiffness, so you can make it stiff again with the red springs if you like, or keep it soft with the yellow springs. You end up with a boot that is laterally stiff but has plenty of flex in the ankles, once modded, its a kickass freecarve boot. There are a few threads on here that cover this topic.

[tex1230]

with the soft tongues a 190-200 pounder would be fine. stiff tongues feel softer than raichle 325s to me (but I'm 225+)

[GeoffV]

Boards im considering:

Virus x-treme carving board 176

QUOTE]

Kyle, I tried to email you but you don't have your email enabled. Drop me a line through BOL if you are interested in the above board.

[smallfry506]

queequeg thanks for the heads up on the stiffness of the boots. Is "modding"common with hardboots?

[Wun]

this is a STIFF boot stock. ... You are taller and heavier than me but I would not be surprised if this boot is still be too stiff for you to start out on stock.

Or, again, you can be brave (or naive) like me, and roll with the stock HSP.

Is "modding"common with hardboots?

I've been told by my bootfitter and others that the boots can be softened. I see that, and I also presume that there ain't so much you can do to stiffen 'em. Some people will actually cut out part of the tongue or something else on the boot for some slack. Other unrelated mods are done sometimes, too. You'll run across stuff if you read around. And as I've read, cant/lift-adjustable bindings are probably imperative if you get boots this stiff.

Oh, and I should probably add that right now I'm very turned on by how stiff the they are (as wrong as that sounds), as opposed to feeling like the boots may be too stiff when wearing them in the house. I'm a bit worried about how long it will take to get dialed in, though.

[queequeg]

I've been told by my bootfitter and others that the boots can be softened. I see that, and I also presume that there ain't so much you can do to stiffen 'em. Some people will actually cut out part of the tongue or something else on the boot for some slack.

Yes and no. It depends upon how the boot is soft, and how it is stiff.

If a boot is made out of soft plastic, like the old raichle SB series or the Track 225, you cannot really make them stiffer. Even if you put the BTS on there with the red springs, the plastic will flex despite the spring's resistance.

If your boots are made out of a stiff plastic, and you modify them to flex/extend more naturally by removing some structural plastic pieces (as you would with the HSP) then you can still have a stiff or soft boot by using a a BTS and adjusting the springs - because the boot flex is controlled by the BTS springs, not by the boot plastic's flex properties.

If you soften a boot by THINNING the plastic (like you would in the tongue) this is different.

In other words: you cannot make soft plastic stiff, but if you have a stiff plastic boot with an unimpeded mechanical hinge, you can controll the stiffness of that hinge by adding a spring.

If I put the yellow springs on my BTS, my boots are soft. If I put the red springs on they are stiff - certainly not as stiff as they would be with the bts+red-springs before modification, but plenty stiff.

The way you would (ideally) soften the HSP is by removing some plastic "wings" from the rear of the boot lower that rubs up against the cuff when you flex. Normally when you flex your boots, these plastic wings press against the rear of the cuff, impeding the mobility of the hinge. Once those plastic wings are cut off the, hinge moves freely, despite the boot plastic being just as stiff as it was before. Adding the BTS and springs then allows you to control the amount of resistance in the hinge between the boot upper and lower.

There are some pictures in this thread that should make things more clear:

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6008