warning: TD2 std vs. Head boots incompatibility

[terekhov]

hi guys,

just to warn you on some long hidden but emerged incompatibility of TD2 rear bail and Head stratos pro rear clip: they had too little overlap, and this bothers me for some long time, until....

... when, after lending, I've done BOTH boots disengaged off TD2 by bending all four bails of binders, and no harm for boots at all. heel bails bent more and freed boots off

so - look at heel interface of your TD2std-head and think for yourself. I think that it is very dangerous to use it in original form, rear bail must be modified to make more circular engagement.

[tex1230]

I've been riding that setup for 2 years and released one time, due to my own error. I don't see a problem in the interface. what year heads are you wearing?

[terekhov]

I rode this setup halftime (second half is on OS1) for year, and too little heel clamping area bothers me from the first time when I tune binders to boot. I'll try to photo rear bails (front's bent a very little only) and post here.

boots is of 2005 or 2006, don't know for sure - they're all the same, you know

PS heel engagement on f2 race and cateks is OK, only TD2 bails is such a wide

[fin]

Terekhov,

Sorry to hear about the issues you experienced with your Head Boots and our TD2 bindings. However, I can assure you that the heel bail on the TD2 is 100% compatible with the Head boots. The Head boots follow the ISO standard for boot heel and toe interface making them the same shape as other boots like the Deeluxe line. Being a Head boot dealer we have sold hundreds of Head boots in the last 3 years and from what we can tell, the majority use a TD2 binding. Currently we have never had a report of an issue with the Head boots and our heel bail.

What we have seen a few times over the years is someone will experience a HUGE crash (much like the one depicted in your attached photo above) and this may deform the bails into a non-working shape. When the rider had not noticed this and continued riding, they experienced a release for no apparent reason. Upon inspection, the heel bail(s) was found to have been bent, we replaced it for them, and they had no issue after that.

Take a look at your heel bails and make sure the interface with the heel of the boot is sound. It should look like something in this photo attached of a Head boot in a TD2 heel bail I just took. If not, replace the bails.

Cheers,

[RDY_2_Carve]

Glad you're ok! :)

[Jack M]

It should take a whole hand or even a little help from your other hand to close the lever. People who ride with their bindings so loose that they can close the lever with one finger or thumb (yes, they are out there) are risking serious injury. When the binding is too loose there is not enough preload on the bails and they will allow the boot to roll in the binding. This increases the leverage the boot exerts on the bail. Cyclically over-torqued like this enough times and the bail will work-harden and break like a paper clip bent back and forth.

[tex1230]

I have had an occasional problem with ice buildup on the lip of the heel causing the bail not to engage correctly. Could this be your problem?

Glad you're ok! :)

flip those score cards over - lowest score possible is deserved for someone starting a thread like this publicly flaming bomber without bringing this to Fin privately. Shame on you terekhov.

[eaglez]

I have had an occasional problem with ice buildup on the lip of the heel causing the bail not to engage correctly. Could this be your problem?

flip those score cards over - lowest score possible is deserved for someone starting a thread like this publicly flaming bomber without bringing this to Fin privately. Shame on you terekhov.

+1 on that.

D.

[bobdea]

it's happened to me with cateks and burton, if you fall hard enough the bail will bend.

if the bails are set too tight or too loose you'll pop out too.

I've had it happen enough, maybe four times in five years that I went to intec awhile back and have not come out since, despite the threads like this about intec.

[terekhov]

shame on yourself, shamers. political correctness is YOUR pain in the arse, not mine - live with it. I'm cannot find any illness in friendly WARNING from long-time hardbooter to other brothers-in-boots, and find ANY political correctness as extreme illness of society which adopts it.

just returned from mountains, will try to make annotated photos of - as I think - problem in a week.

[queequeg]

shame on yourself, shamers. political correctness is YOUR pain in the arse, not mine - live with it. I'm cannot find any illness in friendly WARNING from long-time hardbooter to other brothers-in-boots, and find ANY political correctness as extreme illness of society which adopts it.

just returned from mountains, will try to make annotated photos of - as I think - problem in a week.

Dude, if there were a mountain of people reporting the same problem, you might have a point, but since there aren't, you don't. You are reporting an isolated incident (your experience) as though it were a categorical fault with the product that everyone else is also experiencing (they aren't). In my personal view, that is dishonest.

All products have a failure point. You should always check your equipment before you ride. Of course it is possible to come out of a binding. With enough torque applied to the boot/binding connection you will come out of ANY binding with ANY boot. If your binding has been damaged by previous wrecks, you are even more susceptible to this. Just because you have does not mean everyone else will, and it definitely does not signal a categorical fault with the binding.

You came out and stated your opinion. Other people disagreed. I suggest you live with that. Thankfully, bomber, and the rest of this forum replied with style and grace.

[tex1230]

shame on yourself, shamers. political correctness is YOUR pain in the arse, not mine - live with it. I'm cannot find any illness in friendly WARNING from long-time hardbooter to other brothers-in-boots, and find ANY political correctness as extreme illness of society which adopts it.

just returned from mountains, will try to make annotated photos of - as I think - problem in a week.

This has nothing to do with political correctness - it has to do with you slagging bomber with an unsubstantiated blanket statement. "TD2s and Head boot incompatibility" - YOUR TD2's and YOUR heads had a problem - this is not a universal problem until you come up with a couple dozen other examples. Perhaps a private email to fin asking about the problem or a question about if others might have had the same problem would have yielded a better response, but you took a typical keyboard cowboy shoot first and ask questions later approach.

[Bordy]

You guys sound like a bunch of brain washed high school Cheerleaders.

I can't even fathom why some one would insult a guy for posting his own experance on the website forum of the prodect he is haveing a problem with!

I for one learned that Bomber Bails can bend and may realese if bending happens from a narly fall right from Fins own text!

Thanks Fin for posting such a great response with possible issues causeing the problem which causeed this guy to realese and luckily not get injured.

Shame on the rest of you for Giving any Poster Crap about not going to Fin. And keeping his prodect issue a big secert that no one on the rest of the board can learn from!

I bet if it would have been a binding from another manufactor several of you internet snowboarders would have not reacted the same.

Binding bails my bend on any binding and the boot interface may be affected.

Why not ask terekov questions "like"

Did you buy you bindings new, since you mentioned the fit seemed off from the start? Perhaps they were used and came pre bent. Maybe they got stacked under crap in shipping and got bent?

Who the hell knows but it all sound much better then "SHAME ON YOU"

From any poster.

BOL BOYS CLUB IN FULL AFFECT. Thanks for keeping it real.....real rude!

Good luck solving your problem Terekov. Glad to here you were not hurt!

[tex1230]

I bet if it would have been a binding from another manufactor several of you internet snowboarders would have not reacted the same.

disagree. I think flaming manufacturers of any equipment without real data is ridiculous

Good luck solving your problem Terekov. Glad to here you were not hurt!

+1 to that. glad you're ok.

[Bordy]

disagree. I think flaming manufacturers of any equipment without real data is ridiculous.

They guy had both feet realese and bent all four bails. In his world thats all the DATA he or... my self would need.

+1 to that. glad you're ok.[

WORD!

/QUOTE]

[terekhov]

Dude, if there were a mountain of people reporting the same problem, you might have a point, but since there aren't, you don't.

you a techsupporting me? client is always wrong, yes? LOL

i.e. where the hell is the mountain of reports of TERMINAL unusability of hard-bail binders (catek/td2) and head stratos pro with SOFT rubberish heels (as you know this, strati comes with two different hardness sole pads), esp. on bigger guys (I'm 90kg and need only two days of usual riding and a pair of boots to dispose without any crashes to learn it)? and yes, ALL strati sold here aroung me broken under heavier riders (80+kg) by heel tearing in a days of riding until intec or original hard plastic heels used. and many people thanks me for discovering such a feature of strati plastic+mold.

it only needed ONE SINGLE analytical case study to learn the hard way how the product could fail. and one single careful viewpoint is enough. and in that case - failure occurs in such a way as I predicted almost year ago, when I tune this binders to my boots for the first time. and yes, I'm first user of this pair and I'm local dealer for td/cateks in siberia, and yes - been technically sound mechanic so I _know_ how to set up bail bindings, and YES - many thanks go to BOL forum for many years of self-education on many facets of riding

yes, my case is a crash breakage - but PREDICTED one, and this is the point of my topic

PS it is possible that INCOMPATIBILITY in subj. of this topic is a slightly overused term. so: I'm QUESTIONING compatibility of this pair of products and alerting community on discovered case, which - I think - might be considered important to all who may be concerned

[Derf]

This is what we call in French a "storm in a glass of water". Snowboarding is a dangerous sport and **** happens. Maybe the bindings were improperly adjusted, maybe they were damaged. No need to speak about flaming, political correctness and such. terekhov thinks the issue is with the compatibility, Fin says no with pictures, terekhov says he'll be back with his own pics, problem will be sorted out.

Come on, relax guys!

[MAD1]

Thanks for posting terekhov.

Thanks for the reply fin. It's a good reminder to check one's own equipment... often... especially after a crash.

[NateW]

It would be interesting to have a bunch of data on setups that don't fail. And by that I mean, if everyone who is happy with their TD2 setup would answer two questions:

What is the length of your boot? Raichles and UPZs have little numbers molded into the soles, near the heels, I'm guessing the Heads do too but I wouldn't know.

How far apart are the toe and heel blocks on your TD2s? All of my TD2s are step-ins so I don't know where this should be measured from.

Being an Intec user this wouldn't matter to me, but if I was using the other style I'd appreciate having some data to compare against my own setup, just so I could know if I was doing it right (or how far I was from the median).