Questions about setback

[pebu]

So I have a Nitro and it looks like the sidecut is setback slightly. I think I'd like to set back my stance a little bit in order to get the sidecut in the center of my stance. The deal is this... I'm kinda psyching myself out because this board has an scr of maybe a little over 9, where I'm used to something more in the 12-13ish... I'm afraid of gettin pitched by this board. I know if I get forward on my board then my chances of going over the nose are better, and I know (due to stupid physics) that if I get back on my board, that longer nose is going to have a better chance of folding. (I hate london dispersion forces...) So how much of a threat is folding the nose if I were to move the center of my stance back a couple 2-4 centimeters?

I'm sure I'm way overthinking it, but every time I look at it and it's huge sidecut I keep thinking of it making a turn tighter than I'm ready for and then being airborn... Plus with a more lively board it should just spring me off the ground like a trampoline...

Please, somebody say something to calm my nerves...

[b0ardski]

First off Nitro what? secondly centered on the sidecut is best for laying over the groom, slightly back for pow:lol:

[tex1230]

I'm sure I'm way overthinking it.

Exactly

Have you ever folded the nose on any board? Just experiment with different stances and don't push it too much.

Is this a Nitro alpine board? If so, you're probably at more risk of breaking the board down the middle than folding the nose. They weren't that great to start with and they stopped making alpine boards what...9 years ago?

[cail]

i don't think london dispersion forces have much to do with folding your nose

[pebu]

Nitro Supercarve I believe. I got it for cheap enough, so I guess if it breaks it's not a huge loss (plus then I'd have a good story). I don't know the year or anything, but it's still in good shape, plenty of life left, good base, etc. It's a little heavier than my xvas is, but then again the xvas is a foam core.

I know I've augered the nose a couple times. One of the times I was toeside and got pitched over backwards. It went so quick that it's hard to know what happened. I seem to recall the nose heading back up the hill when it should have been perpendicular still, but at the end the board was still in fine shape, no creases, it wasn't broken... So I don't really know what happened.

And, finally, if I recall correctly, doesn't the law of london dispersion forces or whatever say that it takes less energy to break apart molecules the farther apart they are? Which most professors/teachers illustrate with a pencil or something... You can break a pencil once, maybe even break that half into half, but when you try breaking a pencil that is a quarter as short as the original, it starts getting really hard...

[Steve Prokopiw]

Pebu,in my opinion your intuition is correct.I have been mostly on short radius boards and have delt with their tendency to pitch over by adding some setback.It started out being to make my freeride float better but had the positive side effect of making it perform more like a carve specific board and with less feeling of being about to go over the handlebars.It allowed me to more aggressively drive the nose in initiation phase and more pop in finish phase.On my 161 I set it back one set of inserts front and rear(about 4cm) and ended up leaving it there the rest of last season.Of course ,one drawback is there is now more nose to fold,but so far no problem with that.

[cail]

And, finally, if I recall correctly, doesn't the law of london dispersion forces or whatever say that it takes less energy to break apart molecules the farther apart they are? Which most professors/teachers illustrate with a pencil or something... You can break a pencil once, maybe even break that half into half, but when you try breaking a pencil that is a quarter as short as the original, it starts getting really hard...

basically yeah as a consequence of the forces itself. but it's a material property, so breaking the pencil in half multiple times and it being harder to break isnt due to london dispersion forces. the material properties arent changing in that case, but rather it's change in torque which makes it harder to break (same with the nose of a board). also dispersion forces are weak compared to other bond forces so they wouldnt determine when the material fails.

sorry to get off topic. i agree with tex though: experiment with some different stances. 2cm probably wont make folding the nose much more probable.

[philw]

I hadn't come across "london dispersion forces", although they seem to be "induced dipole-induced dipole attraction", which is irrelevant here.

I think torque may be the wrong concept also; this is just a simple moment issue, no?

On the board, I don't have one of those although I've a few Nitros in my collection. One even has a broken nose, although that was a buried log off-piste at Vernon or somewhere. Anyway, I'd say that if the board has inserts, then the standard stance should be set for the sidecut, so I'd center it in the inserts and see how it feels, then work from there. Moving it back isn't going to be dangerous though, if you're nervous..

[Jon Dahl]

Centered to a few mm back......

[Pow]

Im usually slightly back, a few mm or so. It seems to be easier for pushing forward at the initiation of a carve. I feel like i have more room to pull myself back (and the board forward) durring the carve itself. Just my novice observations though.

[Derf]

My Nitro 166 has a 9,5m radius and a 25mm setback. I always rode it this way and never had the nose fold, but it did dig in (too much weight in the front initiating a carve) and it just kicked me out of the carve, nothing bad. Nitro stopped making carving boards in 2002 if I'm not mistaken.

[yyzcanuck]

... secondly centered on the sidecut is best for laying over the groom,...

I don't buy that. Maybe for you, on your board, in your experience but there is no way you can make me believe that blanket statement given my personal experiences.

[tex1230]

+1 = ever ridden a Madd 158? a Madd 170? same maker, totally different techniques and stances required

[b0ardski]

your right, different stances and/or techniques are required for different flex patterns/shapes. I should have prefaced my "blanket" statment by saying that in my limited expirience I prefer riding boards that allow me to carve switch so my opinion is irrelevent to anyone carving directional boards. my bad.:( Switch carving is more equal to foward carving if "I" am centered on the side cut. you should try it, big fun:D

[BlueB]

For me, majority of the boards ride the best when centered over manufacturers refference mark / centred to insert pattern. The only one that I ride far from designed sweet spot is Skwal Easy Jungle, whicth I ride a lot forward.

[r_starr]

I too have been thinking about setback. For the last 3 years I've been riding a Swoard, which, if my measurements are correct, centered bindings result in being centered over the running length.

Recently I've received 2 Coilers. Per my measurements, centered bindings results in a 2cm setback from the center of the running length. I'm speculating that the setback on the Coilers may be due to some taper, and, perhaps, given Coiler's racing linage, the Coiler inserts are setup to accommodate a race stance... which seems to me to be more of a forward-leaning stance compared to a relatively more upright EC posture.

Since I ride EC style and I am used to riding with the bindings centered over the running length, I thought I'd to start with the bindings on the Coiler set forward 2cm from centered which should put me centered over the running length. I considered bouncing this off Bruce, but as with most setup variables it's largely a matter of personal pref, so it's probably best just to give it a try and adjust from there. The following quote taken from one of Jack's excellent articles in the tech section helped encourage me to "play around" with the manufacturer's standard settings.

"Your board's sidecut reaches its apex at the center of the running length. The reason some boards have setback is so that when you lean forward, your center of gravity will be over the apex of the sidecut or just in front of it. If your board feels heavy turning or unresponsive, you may wish to experiment with centering your bindings on the center of the running length, or even slightly forward. That's yet another beauty of snowboards... we don't have to drill. Play around!"

[Mike T]

r_starr, I can tell you that Bruce does give careful consideration to setback. While I think it's great that you're going to mount up your Coiler in a positionthat makes sense for your style of riding, I encourage you to give the default settings a try for at least one morning's worth of riding. I suspect you will have a positive experience doing so. Just my $0.02

For the record the only decks I've ever ridden where I've found it useful to set up anywhere but the manufacturer's recommend stance has been the Madd 158 and 170, both of which didn't feel good unless mounted all the way forward. Oh, and I haven't found the sweet spot on my Prior Metal yet and I suspect it's actually father back then centered on the manu recommendations.