The Ugly Side of Snowboarding

[Chris Karol]

you might want to sit down for that.

I left Burton right when they got corporate. It all stunk like the corporate funk, so I told Paul Alden to give my contract to someone else and went to ride for Funky. That was the beginning of my education. Being from the "old-school" the bastardization of the sport never sat well with me, hence my lurking around interesting threads like this one. , which started as an amusing rant if I'm not mistaken. Anyway,

I ended up buying my own boards for a while just so I wouldn't have to put up with the BS but that had some obvious problems when it came to riding for a living. So I puckerd up and sold myself...It's always been about the people for me, and not the "brand". Mike Olson and Pete Saari were by far the most interesting and fun to work with. Tom Sims was an early idol of mine from skateboarding so I was stoked when he made me a custom 1810 hammerhead which I still have. Funky was interesting and way more influential than you'd ever know. Rossi gave me a couple good boards over the years.

Now I ride Madd's, my 24/7, and an old Ian Price Burton sled if I'm not on the Rome 168 pow board that my old board designer at Burton gave me. (he doesn't work for burton anymore)

But back to the original point of this thread... You guys are the last bastion of "core" in the sport. You do it because its FUN, not because everyone else is doing it.

.. and that's cool!

[Chris Karol]

Bryan do you have the model I'm talking about? It's got the same topsheet as the one you are showing but the "v" tail I described.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Bryan do you have the model I'm talking about? It's got the same topsheet as the one you are showing but the "v" tail I described.

Chris, this one?

Ended up using flash (getting dark) but it shows up pretty good.

Bottom photo show the board with a turned up tail that confused me, The other two are pretty much dead flat as you stated.

Bryan

[tex1230]

Chris, weren't you the one who had the sequence in TWS years ago running gates on a Doughboy? (and crashing...IIRC it was titled "anatomy of a slam")Now that is "Core"

(edit - that may have been Kris Jamieson...I'm getting old and dementia is setting in)

I Can't hate on park rats. Some of my best non-powder days were spent hiking the pipe for like 8 hours straight...I wish I still had the knees to do the tricks I used to do. Or to try some of th crazy stuff I see out there now.

[utahcarver]

My 'amusing rant' as (Chris) Karol stated above was directed more at the mass-marketing interests in snowboarding, a point I should have made clearer. The foul-mouth surfer or the 'carving' snowboarder at Wendy's serve at examples of what the marketing of snowboarding and surfing have given us. These sports are marketed to everyone as if everyone can do them. At a certain level, this might be true.

But snowboarding is not for everyone. People without skills, training, knowledge, on hill etiquette potentially get riders like who post here on this board hurt or killed. How many times have any of you been put in a dangerous position on the mountain because of the negligence of other riders who were in situations above their abilities? I'm suggesting that snowboard companies along with non-related companies that market to the snowboarding public should shoulder part of this problem.

Thanks for all the great comments, too!

Mark

[Vandalrob08]

Well, I am only 16 therefore I see what your saying in a totally different light but still agree 100%. My local hill is great, small...but Great. Theres only 3 lift's but a ton of true black diamonds. For being in the sierras we get some great racing snow. We also unfortunately have a great terrain park. The populatation in my town is about 3,500 people, of those 3500 there is partly a great community, of which 30% are on alpine boards. The other part of my town are the rich kids my age who by ten snowboards outfits, 7 park boards and sorry attitudes that resemble wannabe Gangsters. All I get when I go to school or up to the hill for a race is "Your so lame, why would you ever wanna be on such a lame race board?" All the kids, are either really cool and on race boards, or super retarded and act like gangsters smoking pot all day why they try to snowboard. It gets a little sickening sometimes but I love carving and that is what matters. Know matter how many Ganster snowboarders raid ouy Beautiful Mountain, they always will know that us Alpine guys own the ski park and its our territory. They might not like us but they know there more hard booters than Park rats. So in a since we are lucky here in little Mount shasta.

[Phil]

...We also unfortunately have a great terrain park. ... "Your so lame, why would you ever wanna be on such a lame race board?" ...

It sounds like your attitude toward the terrain park is just like their attitude toward you. They probably say "we also unfortunately have a great race dept."

I have NEVER gotten any flak from any FS riders because of my race boards. At most, when I am about to drop in, they may ask "are you really going to ride that thing in here?"

Respect gets respect. Disrespect gets disrespect.

Usually.

[Guest]

It sounds like your attitude toward the terrain park is just like their attitude toward you. They probably say "we also unfortunately have a great race dept."

I have NEVER gotten any flak from any FS riders because of my race boards. At most, when I am about to drop in, they may ask "are you really going to ride that thing in here?"

Respect gets respect. Disrespect gets disrespect.

Usually.

Word.

[utahcarver]

"There is a lot of wisdom in this one."

RB7: Your post is simply echoing the point I've been trying to make. Perhaps, like you, our points are largely philosophical because one or two opinions isn't going to change, at worst an industry and at best society. But making others aware of what's going on around them may help stem the tide at least temporarily.

Phil: Did you read RB7's post? The problem he sees isn't FS or park monkeys. Rich kids with 10 boarding outfits, 7 boards, sorry attitudes and wannabe gangsters (who smoke pot all day) was the comment. Are you suggesting this deserves respect? Please convince me this is not what you were saying. Respect is earned over time. Not by showing up to the hill with a bad attitude and the latest threads and kicking it once or twice.

Winter is coming,

Mark

[Vandalrob08]

Phil:True That. True That. Ya I guess I understand what you are saying. The terrain park isnt all that bad, its actually really fun to trhow 360's on your race board over a table. I guess its just the attitude with all of the guys my age. They dont like hard booters. Thats fine, in a small town its different too. Theres a clear line drawn, theres the Typical hard core really good freestyle riders, racers, and tourists, so your right its not all that bad, just frustrating at times. Utah Carver: I also think you better understood what I was trying to say. We can All go up to the t park race boards or not and throw down+gain a little respect. On the same not we can all go (Freestylers) included through a race course and tear it up+get some respect. What I mean is that a lot of the kids at my park would rather get stoned and wear cool clothes and be respected for what there wearing and smoking rather than what they can throw off the money booter.

[utahcarver]

RB7: You are making my position even easier to defend.

The 'tudes and the apparel and the skateboard gangster on the snow is being manufactured. It didn't occur naturally. Someone's idea of what snowboarding should be is driving all the park monkeys to go bananas over fashion and attitude. Think: fad, it will pass. Until the next manufactured ad campaign comes along.

And the one company that started it all globally has lost its soul. And you are too young to see it. It sold out so that one family could travel the world every year and be featured in Snowboard Journal to validate the lifestyle. Where's SJ now? Lost because it didn't support all the peripherals in their ads.

Mark

[willywhit]

But back to the original point of this thread... You guys are the last bastion of "core" in the sport. You do it because its FUN, not because everyone else is doing it.

.. and that's cool!

Spot ON, Chris ! Some of my most memorable carving sessions were riding with CK at Vail and several epic days at ECES.

I think it's pretty cool that Mike Banker sold me a Gnu Antigravity back in '88 and he's still cranking out some of the finest slope tools on the planet.

Be thankful that our little niche in snowboarding hasn't gone mainstream.

[Guest]

Be thankful that our little niche in snowboarding hasn't gone mainstream.

Funny enough, I don't think it will ever go mainstream. At least not in my lifetime. The freestyle industry has too much of a deathgrip on everything snowboarding to ever let go.

[spil]

What if, for some reason, Alpine snowboarding got popular? Would it be good, because the snowboard companies would fight for market share and develop new technologies to gain the competitive edge? Or would it be bad, because then you just stick in with the crowd, and most of all, lose the sense of community that there currently is with most alpine riders?

I think that it would be a bad thing, because it would lose the sense of community that there is now. Even if the companies got larger and more competitive, the product would not improve /that/ much. They would also probably move away from the "core" carvers (read: us), to try to appeal to the "cool" teen stoner demographic. Overall, I am happy with the state that alpine snowboarding is in now.

It is also sort of fun that there are very few carvers, and you stick out in the crowd, but that isn't the reason people carve. People carve because it is fun to them (at lest that is why I do it). Many softbooters also snowboard because it is fun. Sure, some of them do it because it is fun, but there is certainly a "me too" demographic that does what is cool. For the "me too" group, they need to do what is fun, not what they are told is fun. For the people that do it for fun, good for them. If they think that carving is stupid, good for them. They have their fun, I have my fun. The center of this sport (and all sports) is that it is a fun activity. I have fun, so I do it. It is that simple.

"You carve, you carve, you carve, you carve, no slide even if it's icy."

-Jean Nerva.

And if "you skid, you skid, you skid, you skid, all slide, even if its hero snow", but you love it, do that.

[crucible]

Alpine carving will never be close to as popular as softboot snowboarding because it's too unforgiving of sloppy technique.

You need to have some skill and also some muscle to pull it off- and that will keep it from becoming the next big thing.

Backcountry snowboarding also falls into this niche- it takes a lot of commitment and time to get good at this too.

[Fat Old Bastard]

... doesn't make them a snowboarder. It's the same as skiing has been for ages - just because you see someone on skis on the snow it doesn't mean they are a skier.

But the main thing is that being a nice person as opposed to being an arsehole has got nothing to do with how good you happen to be at snowboarding (or skiing or whatever). If someone is an arsehole they will still be an arsehole when they go snowboarding same as they are every other day of the year.

As for me I'm just a fat old bastard

[Phil]

The problem he sees isn't FS or park monkeys. Rich kids with 10 boarding outfits, 7 boards, sorry attitudes and wannabe gangsters (who smoke pot all day) was the comment. Are you suggesting this deserves respect? Please convince me this is not what you were saying. Respect is earned over time. Not by showing up to the hill with a bad attitude and the latest threads and kicking it once or twice.

You know, I have been watching this thread since you started it and several times I have typed responses only to exit and forget about it. I just did not want to get into it. Unfortunately, now I am in it, and for better or for worse, I will try to give you a thoughtful response that I think that the topic deserves.

First off, I try to respect PEOPLE, not their actions. I highlighted "try" because I don't always do very well at it.

Let me peel away the layers of your comment:

Rich - I am not rich, but if they are, is that their fault?

10 boarding outfits - If I had the money, I would have 10 as well - why not?

7 boards - my functional quiver is 4, but I have a lot more than that on the wall, so I have no room to talk here.

sorry attitudes - that's too bad, but if I build a relationship with them, maybe I will understand them better - heck maybeI can even help them out.

wannabe gangsters - I'll never really understand this because of my age, but then again, I used to wear neon and want to be like Damian Sanders;) (remember him? back when one would race and compete in the pipe in the same event?)

smoke pot all day - yeah, I think this is a stupid thing to do, but are you telling me that there aren't "core" riders (many here on this site) that do the same?

Believe me, I do not excuse poor actions, but I try not to write someone off because of their actions. My goal is to love and respect people where they are. I try not to take their actions personally. Sometimes I fail miserably. Other times I am successful and my perspective is broadened by experiencing a new personality or subculture. I still may not accept or respect their actions, though. In the end, as Chris K. said, it is about having fun. I have found that I can have fun on a snowboard with just about anyone. I have even been known to spend long hours on the bunny slopes with people and still have a blast just playing on my snowboard. (I am of the firm opinion that ANY snowboarder can learn SOMETHING on the bunny slope)

There is another side to this story. After reading what I have already written, hopefully you will not take the following personally.

One of the many actions that I personally dislike (and am guilty of) is elitism. To me, this thread, from the very beginning has been very elitist.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the title of this thread could have been "Core riders are better than posers" If we are weighing actions, I don't see how being an elitist is any better than being a poser.

To me, you have two different kinds of people who are trying to find their identity through the same medium, only one wants to be identified with the culture (poser) and one wants to be identified by their skill and/or commitment to the sport ("core"). I spent many years trying to find my identity through what I do (a lot of that was snowboarding) and many times I still find myself doing that. I am sure that those who have read my posts at Bomber over the years could probably recognize that I have this problem. The problem is, where does getting your identity through snowboarding get you? If you are "core" you will always be ranking yourself among the "core" people and looking down on those who are not "core", or who are less "core". If you are a poser, you will always be ranking yourself on how much you look and act the part of the culture you identify yourself with.

When you are old and gray, are you going to look back and be happy that you were a "core" snowboarder? That doesn't do much good if you were a grouch who looked down on others who were not like you. Where did being a "core" snowboarder get you in life anyway?

Or are you going to look back and say "when I hit up the park, I was rollin' strong in my Shaun White getup, matta fact, I had it in all three colors." For people who are really into snowboarding, they would say "yeah but you missed out on the essence of snowboarding". That being true this person probably missed out on a lot more in life as well.

I remember a time when people would not get on a lift with me or go down the slope with me because I was on a snowboard. That sucked.

I personally have a lot of shortcomings. If you see me on the hill, some of them may be immediately evident. Others would take time to discover. In spite of my shortcomings, I hope that people will still be willing to ride with me. I can honestly say that I don't believe that there has been anyone who has ever ridden with me that has not had some sort of fun. They may not have liked me all that much. They may not have respected me. My personality and/or my shortcomings may have annoyed them. I would still bet that once we hit the snow, we had a good time.

In the same way, when I meet you guys on the hill, I hope that whether you fall into the elitist or the poser category, or some other category not addressed here, we can just go ride and have fun. I promise that I will try to look past any shortcomings that I perceive in you. After all, we are all supporting the same industry in one way or another. Without that support, we would enjoy less of the luxuries in this sport that we all love.

I am ready for snow. Maybe next time I will be smart enough to stick to snowboard specific threads.;)

[Silver Bullet]

Mark,

I thought I was the first guy at the Beav! But I guess you had me by a year or so. I seem to remember a few guys on wintersticks trying to hook their feet back onto their boards with frozen webbing and loose screws. Could that have been you?

In '83, a buddy of mine got a Woody for Christmas and did not know what to do with it. The bindings were pre-high back and had a mountain peak that would lacerate your achilles tendon. I believe the same year('83 or "84), Tom Sims had a short spot in a Warren Miller flick and I was sold. I picked up my first board at Cycles and Sleds in Logan for $120 buckaroos. I learned quickly after hiking through the snow at the Logan Country club one October that moon boots would not cut it. That season, I recall seeing 2-3 others on the hill at Beaver. A few years later, say '87-'88 Dennis Nazari of Salty Peaks Fame (He actually rode in a Wet suit) and a group of sponsored riders from California started showing up at Beaver and promoting the Southwest Surf Ski Association Certification Program. There was also a race circuit developing. I remember that we had to make the halfpipe with shovels prior to the competition at Powder Mountain. What a mess.

Anyhow....

What I really like about hardbooting now is that it feels as fresh as railing on those goofy metal fins did in the early '80's. Snow is forecast for tonight in the hills above Salt Lake. Could it be? The hottest Summer on record is over? Let's hope so!

Stephen

[terekhov]

just for some fun reading ;)

[Neil Gendzwill]

[snip a lot of good stuff]To me, you have two different kinds of people who are trying to find their identity through the same medium[snip more good stuff]

I find this to be an unfortunate aspect of the whole skate/surf/snow culture - this tribalism thing. Our group is best, you guys suck. Why? We're street skaters, you're slalom skaters. We're freestylers, you're pool riders. Etc, etc. I sure was guilty of it when I was younger. I think it must be something in our collective psychology that makes us do this.

If someone is skidding down the hill on expensive gear they can't ride, my only questions are 1. are they out of their depth and a danger to others and 2. are they having fun. If 1 is no and 2 is yes, more power to them. I think they're missing out on even more fun by not learning how to ride well, but then that's me - a big part of the fun for me is getting better. But some people don't care and that's cool.

[utahcarver]

Phil: Thanks for your thoughtful post. I think your perspective along with D-Subs earlier post may be right as to letting people be and society will continue degrade at many levels; people are going to be people and there isn't much I or any one else can do about it. The difference between our perspectives is that I'm less accepting of that idea. As to the charge of elitism I plead guilty.

Your solution of being accomodating to people works for you. But, I'm tired of sitting on my hands and letting things go unsaid. Perhaps, my argument is largely philisophical and belongs over in the off topic section where it can't harm the discussions here.

Stephen: We may have some more to talk about. I'll email you later.

Terekhov: Nice link; I've seen that before. Do you still have the Undertaker 198 you bought from me?

Mark

[Phil]

Phil: Thanks for your thoughtful post. I think your perspective along with D-Subs earlier post may be right as to letting people be and society will continue degrade at many levels; people are going to be people and there isn't much I or any one else can do about it. The difference between our perspectives is that I'm less accepting of that idea. ...Your solution of being accomodating to people works for you. But, I'm tired of sitting on my hands and letting things go unsaid.

My post was about how I feel about people, not what I DO about those who I disagree with. I said that I try to love and respect people, not their actions.

I believe that we have a responsibility to try to help people and/or help them to change their errant ways.

sorry attitudes - that's too bad, but if I build a relationship with them, maybe I will understand them better - heck maybe I can even help them out.

IMO, it all starts with building a relationship. Once a relationship is established, your likelihood of having a positive effect on someone greatly increases. It is really hard to build a relationship with someone if you look down on them.

I believe that elitism and snobbery puts a wall between us and them. Once the wall is there, how can we help them to change? Bitching about it gets us nowhere. Being open to relationships with young thugs is a start.

It is like this: I know a guy who got mugged by a thug in the city. He says "I don't know why this happened to me, I never did anything to anybody." He is right in two ways. He never did anything to hurt anybody, so in his innocence he did not deserve to be attacked. However, he also never did anything to help society, especially not underprivileged kids in the city who grow up having to decide what means they will use to put food on the table. Of course, I am not saying it was his fault, but I am saying that he did not do anything to help the situation. Now he will most likely spend his life bitching about degredation of urban cultures, but will not lift a finger or spend a dime to do anything about it. (this was all WAY oversimplified, but I think you will get the point)

Bottom line is that talk is cheap.

Are we still talking about snowboarding?

[willywhit]

just for some fun reading ;)

great stuff terehov, I plan on a huge post in this very important thread.

"Never judge a man until you walk a mile in his moccasins"

[Gecko]

Funny enough, I don't think it will ever go mainstream. At least not in my lifetime. The freestyle industry has too much of a deathgrip on everything snowboarding to ever let go.

the same was said about the mainstream skateboard market who have all but lost their market share to cheap overseas boards and the fact that "fashion" (softgoods) have been the driving force for years just like in the snowboard market. As a result the only growing market in skateboarding are Blank Boards and Longboarding (and ALL disciplines it entails)

[wavechaser]

...the more they stay the same.

"So what does it all mean? Probably nothing...except that here in the 70's, a lot of outsiders are recognizing skating as a way to commercial profit. Writers are terming it the youth movement of the time, while inside the skate sphere itself, it is a time of flux and indecision. Professionalism is very much in evidence. It seems that there is a team for everyone, and someone for every team. Attacking professionalism is easy, due to its non-purist orientations. Professionalism tends to breed organized stagnation. On the positive side, professionalism allows the skater to make money to further his other interests. Professionalism also promotes product development. Products at present are of a much higher quality than in the past. Two years ago, a 50 m.p.h. run was heavy, now it's commonplace. Why? Primarily due to equipment advancements. Quality equipment is now within everyone's grasp."

- from the article "FRONTIER TALES OR ANY RESEMBLANCE TO PERSONS LIVING OR DEAD IS PURELY COINCIDENTAL" by C.R. STECYK III, in Skateboarder magazine - Fall 1976.

And you might enjoy this too (WARNING! - the "related" videos will keep you busy all night):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJDqbAS7GnY