~tb Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Can't anyone be objective? If you’re serious about engineering, how about putting that information on the specs. For example, rate boards tip, tail, center on how much G’s they can handle, then let people purchase base on their weight and how they ride. That should minimize unwarranted expectations and provide confidence in the product.[/font] [/size][/font] --edit to get rid of ms formats Alright. . . putting aside the fact that I dont know if I agree with your post. . . Lets say that manufacturer xyz said that the nose of their board is rated to 20G's. . . would you know what that means to you at all? Do you even know how many G's the tip of a snowboard sees during riding (I don't). Further more, its not just G level, its the total amount of energy determined by the G level and the durration at that level (total area under the curve). Engineering geek - out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest needanswer Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Alright. . . putting aside the fact that I dont know if I agree with your post. . . Lets say that manufacturer xyz said that the nose of their board is rated to 20G's. . . would you know what that means to you at all? Do you even know how many G's the tip of a snowboard sees during riding (I don't). Engineering geek - out you will know the difference between a 20G board and a 2G board. that's what really matters. Also, would you rather not know anything? edit- you're correct about the duration, so how about something like 20G for 10sec carve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest needanswer Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Bein I are an enginer and a manufacturing guy.. I'd have to ask all of you this question.If you had your own small snowboard company and each time a customer broke a board racing would you invariably replace it at no charge? Again (see my post above), you're heading the wrong direction. As a enginner and manufacturing guy, you're asking the wrong question. The question is not if you had you own sb company ...., the question is , if you're an average joe customer, would you like your board replaced. now, work toward that goal, not away from it. Remember, you want more customers. Steve Prokopiw, thanks for your post. That's the solution that people should put out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~tb Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 you will know the difference between a 20G board and a 2G board.that's what really matters. Also, would you rather not know anything? Being an engineer . . . I know that the 2G board and the 20G board would ride adversly different. a higher number wouldnt definately mean better. . . you would end up on an unwieldly tank! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 2) If you're a manufacturer, you NEED to make money, if not for profit, then at least to keep the venture going. The fact that you haven’t doesn’t make you a saint. For example, rate boards tip, tail, center on how much G’s they can handle, then let people purchase base on their weight and how they ride. That should minimize unwarranted expectations and provide confidence in the product. Also, I love how manufacturers judges defects on their own terms; that doesn’t seem very independent. If a manufacturer wants to appease a customer, they should let an independent group (perhaps, a competitor) decide whether it’s a defect. ok 1. swoard: do we pretend to be saints? or do we complain? it was just given as an explaination to say that small manufacturers aren't necessary making lots of $$ from their work due to the niche market they choose to be in... And thnx for supporting our effort! If we listened to every advice like that, the EC movement and the EC boards would be non existing....we chose to stay afloat injecting personnal $ in that story..mind you but its our choice and no we are not complaining. 2. dream: its impossible to modelize the efforts that can be put onto a snowboard, because situations on the snow are NEVER the same. Ask any engineer about it! Snowboards are empiric experimentations, not catia models. 3: ok lets make a nürnberg jury ...are you ready to finance it? How the hell would independant analyzing of a board breakage work???lets stay real... and trust the small brands honesty when they answer you...this is what makes smaller brands closer to the customers: trust and faith in what they are doing... if you don't trust them, you might want to look at chinese mass product snowboards... same apply in surfboard industry. A good idea came out in the previous posts: its called personnal insurance. Our reseller in Geneva shells all boards with a independant insurance for each board he sells. They replace ALL damage boards freely. Extra cost is about 40 euros. Nils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 I'm sure that any board manufacturer could make a board that you couldn't break. However, it would be some combination of heavy, stiff and (very) expensive. You wouldn't want to pay for it & you wouldn't like riding it. Snowboards are really just sophisticated plywood. Their primary component is wood. Wood is a natural substance and is not perfect. I doubt that the recent failures of boards were due to "defects". They are more likely due to snow conditions (soft) that allow riders to put huge forces on them. If any object is stressed beyond it's elastic limit, it will break. If the board were made stiff enough that you couldn't break it, it would be too stiff to decamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C5 Golfer Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Again (see my post above), you're heading the wrong direction.As a enginner and manufacturing guy, you're asking the wrong question. The question is not if you had you own sb company ...., the question is , if you're an average joe customer, would you like your board replaced. now, work toward that goal, not away from it. Remember, you want more customers. We can pleasantly agree to disagree here.. I asked the question so that the other side of the coin is seen. To answer your question.. Sure any customer of any product would always want his faulty failing product replaced. That is a given - down to where Paris Hilton I am sure wants her Continental GT replaced when it is dirty or needs a vacuum in the interior. But let’s get real; no manufacturer of any small size can replace a broken product 100% of the time no questions asked. Yes, of course I want more customers -- but not at the expense of failing to where I have to close the doors due to keeping my product affordable and slightly profitable and at the same time give Carte Blanc replacement program anytime a user breaks it. There are times specially in this sport when and if you break something we are informed and smart enough to know if this failure was due to abuse beyond reasonable or flat out faulty. I think with that information any of us could and can go back to several of our prime manufacturers and state our case. I bet more than 80% of the time the customer will go away happy. \ One of the beauties of our sport and its products is that we can and do talk directly with the “MAN” in charge. Fin, Chris Prior, Sean, Bruce, --to name a few. Try that in other sports and you get this question on the line “ Press 1 to continue in English” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modifiede30 Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Sorry but I think you're S.O.L. - and I think to suggest that your board should be replaced is a bit unreasonable. You used a plank of something (probably wood) with metal edges and plastic layering to carve down a hill at high speeds using increasing G forces at every turn. This seems like me asking Toyo to give me new tires because the ones on my race car wore out faster than the ones on my daily driver. I know some people ride their boards hard recreationally, but racing introduces many other variables that I think prevents a company from honoring any warranty - regardless of the product type. In fact, most companies indicate this up front, and I think any snowboard company would be well within their business rights (and minds) to do the same. Just my $.02. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 JUST a thought...but what harm would there be in offering a replacement at cost? With everything factored in...labor, etc...I have no idea how much a boutique shop makes on each board. BUT...Sean likely has enough experience to look at a board and say "this happened due to..." and feel confident in his judgement. He seems like a very standup guy. also...without looking back at the first post...was the board purchased by the rider? If not...most warranties do not transfer. Edit: apparently board was purchased directly, so warranty would apply. I dunno...sucky situation, but... Prior...I've heard more than a few stories about bad construction and bad policies, but donek? nope! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C5 Golfer Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Prior...I've heard more than a few stories about bad construction and bad policies, but donek? nope! Not nice..to keep feeding a 8 year old fire that was put out long ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 not "nice?" wow...this site is incredibly limp-wristed sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Maybe manufacturers could offer an optional warranty like the one on our car.After researching the particular warranty,I decided it was worth the extra cost for some added peace of mind.It is also refundable if I make no claims on it by the end of the term.Assuming the product run has only a few failures out of a thousand the materials,labor and administrative costs to provide replacements might be entirely covered by the fact that most warrantees have no claims made on them.Perhaps more practically for small makers,the unused warranty, or portion thereof,could be applied torward the next purchase,thus increasing customer loyalty.Of course the cost of the optional warranty could be determined based on projections that are based on numbers of past product failures etc.I have always been a loyal return customer of companies that make products I like.In a small market like this one it is just as important to keep the existing customers coming back for more as it is to generate new clientele. This seems like a pretty great idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 I just read the "refundable at the end of the term" thing and am absolutely amazed at that. Usually extended warranties are just a way to make some more $$ but to offer a refund if no hits against it is impressive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncermak Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 first and foremost...I love my Donek...Kudos to Sean for building great boards. Second. If a manufacturer were just going to replace a board for free when it breaks, why would I ever buy a new one. Snap it over your knee, and get a new one for free! Woo Hoo! I love this plan. Lets get real folks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Our reseller in Geneva shells all boards with a independant insurance for each board he sells. They replace ALL damage boards freely. Extra cost is about 40 euros.Nils I would gladly pay $50 extra (about 40 euros) the next time I buy a new board for 100% breakage replacement. seems like a good business plan if there is a time limit to the insurance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 first and foremost...I love my Donek...Kudos to Sean for building great boards.Second. If a manufacturer were just going to replace a board for free when it breaks, why would I ever buy a new one. Snap it over your knee, and get a new one for free! Woo Hoo! I love this plan. Lets get real folks... yes, lets get real. OP said he never crashed, landed on the tail...etc... he could easily be lying, could have forgotten that one incident, etc, but if nothing out of the ordinary happened and the tail breaks? come on...again..>WHY do people on this site insist that criticism or discussion of possibilities is so off limits? Raceboarder hasnt insinuated anything except that Sean said no warranty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 I just read the "refundable at the end of the term" thing and am absolutely amazed at that. Usually extended warranties are just a way to make some more $$ but to offer a refund if no hits against it is impressive! Hmmm... Steve, are you sure about that? Insurance or extended warranty where you get a refund if not used doesn't add up, the company who issues the warranty would lose money every on every one except for cases where there was a claim for less than the cost of the wearranty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest needanswer Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 ok 1. swoard: do we pretend to be saints? or do we complain? it was just given as an explaination to say that small manufacturers aren't necessary making lots of $$ from their work due to the niche market they choose to be in... And thnx for supporting our effort! If we listened to every advice like that, the EC movement and the EC boards would be non existing....we chose to stay afloat injecting personnal $ in that story..mind you but its our choice and no we are not complaining. thanks for not complaining :rolleyes: , BTW, you are right to state that you're not making money and even pouring personal $ to sustain it. My point is that, should not matter to customers. They just care about product and service. 2. dream: its impossible to modelize the efforts that can be put onto a snowboard, because situations on the snow are NEVER the same. Ask any engineer about it! Snowboards are empiric experimentations, not catia models. I'm an engineer. Customers are not asking for 100% real world model. They need more information. I believe some manufacturers do stress tests on their boards. They know how much G/s a board can take. Having comparable numbers would help people decide which board suits them. Again, let's not talk about what you can't do, but what you can. If the people that study and report weather decided they can't model weather perfectly (they can't), so should they shut up and not report anything. Some information is always better than none. 3: ok lets make a nürnberg jury ...are you ready to finance it? How the hell would independant analyzing of a board breakage work???lets stay real... and trust the small brands honesty when they answer you...this is what makes smaller brands closer to the customers: trust and faith in what they are doing... if you don't trust them, you might want to look at chinese mass product snowboards... same apply in surfboard industry. That's the point I'm trying to make. The fact that the warranty system is based on trust is an inferior solution. The warranty system, as is will always generate complaints like this thread. Any complaint is a point where you could make improvements. Why do people settle for the status quo, and say this is as good as it gets. A good idea came out in the previous posts: its called personnal insurance. Our reseller in Geneva shells all boards with a independant insurance for each board he sells. They replace ALL damage boards freely. Extra cost is about 40 euros. This is my point, that we don't need to settle with the status quo (oh, things break, we can't afford to do anything) There're solutions to this warranty issue, and it only cost 40 euros. The business that recognize issues and fix them would succeed in the end.BTW, I'm not arguing that donek should replace this guy's board, that's up to Donek, and there's no right or wrong; either way, it's a business decision. I'm proposing, going forward, that there are too many complaints and the system needs improvement and cannot agree with those who say this is as good as it gets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 my thoughts exactly but...I thought...well...maybe...but not likely, and impressive if so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastskiguy Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 I don't think we know enough to comment about any of this....is this a 1 in 1000 event or a 1 in 5? Because if it's 1 in 1000 then I'm outta here.....1 in 5 and we've got a problem of epic proportions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailertrash Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 real world its probably 1 in 1000. if your data was only from this forum you might think its 1 in 5. i think this is the point d-sub is missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest needanswer Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Second. If a manufacturer were just going to replace a board for free when it breaks, why would I ever buy a new one. Snap it over your knee, and get a new one for free! Woo Hoo! I love this plan. Lets get real folks... yeah, let's get real. Insurance if done correctly, does work; just look at insurance companys that make money. Best Buy and other electronic insurers are making $$$. For those who forgot how insurance works... If you break a board, the damage would be inspected. If it's abuse, your next premium would be up or no one would insure you. duh... Also, insurance would not pay out a new board; which insurance give you a new car for crashing an old one? of course it'll only pay out a percentage. That is why you don't see people crashing their cars on purpose all over the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 real world its probably 1 in 1000. if your data was only from this forum you might think its 1 in 5. i think this is the point d-sub is missing. Im not missing anything! Where in the WORLD did you get the impression that Raceboarder7 is doing anything but stating the facts of his situation, and his disappointment at Sean's decision? He never once says anything that would imply that he believes this is an epidemic. If it were my company I would offer a replacement at cost. Keep a customer, earn 5 more perhaps through word of mouth. As I said...Sean inspected the board, and decided it was not his responsibility. Sean strikes me as a very stand-up kind of guy. The point others seem to be missing is that no one is above scrutiny! Plenty here think they are though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Prokopiw Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Mike T.;There was a small fee, of course, that is not refundable as it would not make sense to have it be completely free of charge.It does in fact read that it is refundable if we make no claims and that if claims made are less than the cost of the warranty, that the unused portion is refundable.BTW,one reason I went that route was that I had a used(current one is new) vehicle break down that I was unsuccessful in invoking the anti lemon law with. Had I opted for the optional warranty the incredibly expensive repair would have been covered.Maybe I am just a sucker, but a couple of others I checked with thought the current warranty was legit and a reasonable choice. Back to the point ,it seems the math can work out for the manufacturer and for the customer who is presented with a choice, presale, of whether to buy what is essentially insurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailertrash Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 easy there d, the point i meant to make, was that you don't see posts about the thousands of boards that are fine. you (as in a reader of this forum) only see the broken board threads. scrutiny is fine, it just gets pretty lopsided in these threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts