crucible Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 A little bit of research on my part has uncovered a sobering truth about the snowsports industry: Ski and snowboard manufacturers are increasingly having their hardgoods product manufactured in the People's Republic of China. Now in the interests of fairness, I would like to state that my personal opinion is that this doesn't necessarily mean that the quality of these snow hardgood products is implied to be shoddy or substandard. I have been amazed at the increase in quality coming out of the PRC in the last six years, including my digital camera, my DVD player, and the computer that I am typing this post on. However, I note with pride that the stuff that I bought with my hard earned cash and use has been made from countries that have a rich history and legacy in snowsports : Prior (Canada), Raichle( Switzerland), Winterstick (USA- but that's now changed- Wintersticks from 1998 on are being made in China), Koflach/Atomic/Oxygen(Austria), and of course, Catek/Bomber (RED WHITE AND BLUE- USA). These products aren't computers, cars or heavy machinery. They are products that support a lifestyle that is the benefit of our economic standing, but to me they are also products that have soul. What I am interested in is your thoughts on whether our type of snowboards, boots, and bindings will ever be made offshore in China, Vietnam, or India... How do you think globalization will affect our little carving universe? George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skatha Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 Not necessarily..... I read an interesting book called "The Walmart Factor". The gist was, like most have noted, that many Americans value inexpensive over quality. (What I didn't know was how many big companies were driven to bankruptcy by business deals with Walmart-like Huffy) In any case, alpine is a niche market. Those of us leaning that direction have shown that we will pay for good equipment. If an alpine manufacturer can succeed with our business, he's/she's going to stay. Just like there are people to buy Viking grills, there are people who'll pay for a quality snowboard... Now big-time manufacturers, like Burton, already have some of their product made in China...but, I think, it's just a matter of time before we see Burton in Walmart anyway.... Interestingly, some of the best telescopes available are made in Japan....Vixen Where does Japan fit into this? It wasn't too long ago that Japan was the origin of cheaply made products.....then Taiwan, now China Which country is next? North Korea?....as a manufacturing base grows and people move into urban environments, the worker's wages will rise and China may not be so cheap anymore... How about India.....teak would probably be an awesome core material, but then we'd have really expensive rides Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 My '05 Deeluxe Suzukas were made in Hungary, not Switzerland, FWIW. The sticker has survived a full season of use! As for boards and bindings, I would imagine that I will continue to give my business mostly to Bomber, Coiler, and Donek for years to come. Great gear and all three have gone the extra mile. (Yep, I have my eye on a Madd 158 too. Made in Italy but more like the B/C/D example than outsourced to Asia). So whether other companies are building offshore is not relevant to me. I have to believe that what Burton or Atomic do regarding offshore production has little effect on what Bruce, Fin, Mike and Sean do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Houghton Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 Burners are already made in China, Hasco I think is the company name. Not to worry about quality, once they get the recipe right they can pound them out by the thousands. Consistency and process control is amazing. India is the best for brass and machine screw products, best prices in the world and shipping is not that expensive. Hungary,Poland and similar areas are the new third world, everyone is setting up there (Ikea for example). Things are changing fast, a few years and you'll be able to buy Chinese cars in NA - courtesy of Bricklin himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skatha Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 I hope to be still using my old Ford and my old Volvo-I'd much rather ride than work to pay off a new car or big house.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 Burners are already made in China, Hasco I think is the company name. Wait a minute, really? Now we just need to find out where the Hasco factory is in China...I hear they have a lot of "shrinkage" problems at those Chinese factories. $50 for a Burner anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donek Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 I talk with a lot of people about the China issue and get a lot of feedback. There is a lot of garbage coming out of China in the snowboard industry and a lot of well made product too. The real issue that faces the snowboard industry is that they have no R&D in the US. It's difficult to develop new technologies offshore. The other issue is that the Chinese average income has doubled in 7 years (I think that's the correct figure). Another 7 years and it's not going to be cheeper to produce stuff over there. When it becomes wiser to bring production back home, industry is going to be faced with a labor force completely devoid of any useable skills. A friend of mine who visited China a few months ago told me that the Chinese are worried about their own dependence on the US. If the US doesn't actually make anything, how are we going to continue to purchase goods from them. The sad thing is that about the only thing we do export these days is entertainment. The old idea that "Made in The USA" meant something is dissapearing, unless we're talking about a movie. Alpine is not a mass production industry. I don't know of any mass customization going on in the snowboard industry in China. The Chinese manufacturers want to do it fast and make huge quantities. I can tell you that they would have very little interest in building 25 of this model, 15 of another model, and 1 of this custom... I don't think we're anywhere near the volume that would justify moving production to China. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 I've got a "Canadian" LTD All-Around 163 board, which was made in China, back in 2003 or 2002. It is actually a very good board (for a twintip al-mountain board) - wood core, good lamination, fast base. Carves quite well and can be used with plates... Also, I had some fly rod prototypes (my own brand) manufactured in China. Super cosmetics, outstanding action, but consistency of quality control wasn't there... Maybe I didn't do enouqh development/prototyping with them. Boris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baka Dasai Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 This 2002 article from Wired talks about the booming businesses and factories in the southern region of China that make just about everything. Quote from one of the factory owners: "Anything you can make for $100, we can make for $40." Interesting stuff. I don't I have a problem with buying "Made in China" as long as the quality's good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 baka: you just gave the actual cost of a snowboard made in china ( cheap cap board), versus an average cap board made in east europe. ( I did gave a few numbers a few months ( a year maybe) ago on this forum) N. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skatha Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 My piano came from eastern Europe....I bought it at the Steinway dealership and spent about 6 months looking for it. I absolutely HATED the tinny sound of the Yamahas, Aiwas, etc.... Steinways were way too much.... I was looking for about a 42-45 inch studio upright.... Used pianos quickly became not an option, the cabinets by and large were pretty roughed up and there was no easy way to know whether of not the sound board was bad, too.... I was going from Boston( an inexpensive Steinway) to Boston at this retailer and came upon a beautiful piano, obviously hand made, but with a almost machine precision-the keys evenly spaced, the finish flawless-great timbre, beautiful ash sound board. Price right where I was thinking I was going to have to spend.... It's a Petrof, made in the Czech Republic.... I'd definitely recommend it if anyone is looking for a piano.... The sales rep was talking about the upgrade deals they have, you know, in 5 years or so, I could trade it in and get a "better" piano.....duh, don't think so.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgang Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 My father-in-law sells leather to the furniture and other industries...In terms of quality one of the companies he sells to has to kept a american manager over there at all times to watch over the quality...If nobody from the company was there quality was a crap shoot....also china does not produce most of the raw materials...the wood is cut down here the leather is made in italy and then transported to china made and then shipped back to the states...yet it still costs less and making it here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 Burners are already made in China, Hasco I think is the company name. Not to worry about quality, once they get the recipe right they can pound them out by the thousands. Consistency and process control is amazing. Hasco is/was the Japanese distributor for Sims. I thought that those boards were actually produced in Japan?? I don't believe their version of the Burner is being produced any more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 are being made in China, not all but a very large portion What's up with you guys dragging Burton around like its the only big guy in the snowsports industry I am willing to bet you will see snojam stuff in walmart soon though China is on the way up and when it gets to a point manufacturing there is not so cheap ot will move to other places, Africa still has plenty of places with lax labor laws take advantage of maybe someday the US will be a 3rd world country, with the national debt constantly climbing along with inflation but base standard of living dropping it looks like thats where we will be headed if somethings are not figured out in the next ten years or so. imagine the day when mexicans come to the US for a cheap vacation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 It's a Petrof, made in the Czech Republic....I'd definitely recommend it if anyone is looking for a piano.... Interesting. The store where we bought our piano is primarily a used piano refurbishing outfit, but sells Petrof for people who want new. We ended up with a refurbished Bell, originally hand-made in Ontario in 1920. I think it sounds better than any of the new Petrofs he had on display plus it has a lovely quarter-sawn oak cabinet that you could never get without spending big bucks now. Cost - $CDN2500 about 7 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 Chinese skateboards suck...they use crappy wood (not Rock Maple) and the quality of the pressing leaves a lot to be desired. The same lack of quality can be said for Ugg boots now that they are made in China. I just don't see mass production Alpine boards coming from China for much of the reasons Sean mentioned. I doubt Bindings will be forthcoming either. As for Boots, well...I have had great luck with shoes/boots made in Korea and Viet Nam. I could see a good boot being made in the orient Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak_rider Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 I would say that alpine boards could possibly be made in asia, but not for the inexpensive factor. Carving is growing in asia. My friend(who happens to be Korean) says it's because asians have small feet and the narrower boards are better. So, there might be an asian alpine company in the future, and they would probably want to make the boards there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 I would say that alpine boards could possibly be made in asia, but not for the inexpensive factor. Carving is growing in asia. My friend(who happens to be Korean) says it's because asians have small feet and the narrower boards are better. So, there might be an asian alpine company in the future, and they would probably want to make the boards there. Ogasawa makes most (though not all) of the Alpine boards (of all brands) sold in Japan but I would liken them to F2 not bargin manufacturer by any means. Head and Yonex also make boards though I doubt given the quality that I saw that either were OEM'd in China unless they really supervised construction. It's true that Alpine is bigger in Asia than here in the North America and that's cool in my book, though their gear is really expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 I think the question should be---- are there any chineese members on the board, if so what boards and bindings do you ride, we are the minority, and might be suprised by what we don't know can you please explain what you mean? this has absolutely nothing to do with the chinese as a people. once again Sean comes in as the voice of reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipstar Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Well i am ethnically 1/2 Chinese, so I guess I can try to answer. I don't think for most snowboarders, they buy because something is made somewhere; they buy based on a price vs. quality trade off. Being Chinese or not makes no difference; although my guess is that perhaps some immigrants might be less likely to buy into the whole 'we got to buy local' vibe. Ironically K2 (which is the number two player in snowboard market through their multiple brands) used to play the 'it is the American ski, and you should support us' line; they make most of their stuff in China, and really pushed that style of production. Most of the Euro manufacturers have been doing the same thing going to Slovenia and Poland and stuff AFAIK for a while since the fall of the Berlin Wall. Places like Cobra down the road here in Thailand are making much of the soft binding type pieces here already. I'd say that almost anything that can be mass produced and is not high on the innovation and development front, and America is going to be not so competitive. Windsurfers, surfboards, sailing boats, the high end custom stuff can be made locally but anything mass produced (and a lot of it can be) will end up in Asia/Mexico/South America. I think people like Bomber, Coiler, anyone at the high end of the value/innovation curve will be more competitive than ever. For the mass producers, well best to try to keep your hand in and outsource the manufacturing to Asia, but keep owning like K2. For the ones who just are outsourcing to a factory, China is going to acquire/steal their IP and do it themselves; IP protection means little/nothing in Asia. The innovation in China and Asia is in figuring out ways to set up factories, logistics, that sort of thing. Not much innovation in design and features. Yet. For alpine boards, at the moment, China will have a problem of getting the quality wood to use for the core. It will also tend to focus on the low hanging fruit first, which means mass production of burton and stuff; bear in mind it is Burton and K2 that are pushing into China to make their stuff. Also, China could be one of the world;s biggest ski markets, there are 200+ ski resorts there most of which opened in the last 5 years. If you don't see the rate of development here in Asia, then it is hard to believe. And China is on steroids. My guess is China has its own decent quality skis and snowboards that reach top 3 by sales volume within the next 20 years. Look at Korea and Samsung. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Buggs Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 I have my Evil Ball brand made in china, why? because they can make the best ball for the best price. Right down the street another factory makes a ball for a competitor and it sucks. Just like here one place can make good things and the other can blow. Sean was right about the growth over there. We know in the very near future we will have to look elseware to manufacture our Evil ball. Its already becoming a problem. Our factory usually has 700 people to stitch covers, this season they only have 400, cant get that type of labor and it will be less next year. So going forward I would not worry about China, there are other places where this stuff will be made but Im not going to say where. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carvedog Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Anti Peoples Republic of China rant to follow: I have no problem supporting most far East countries in my buying habits. I do have trouble buying anything made in PRC due to the incredibly oppressive government there. The also have very few protections in place for the workers there even if you only believe half of what you read. So those balls that you get cheaper over there Bobby ( not picking on you - just using an example) could be that way because they were made in a factory where the workers get no breaks, are not allowed to leave their station until they produce a certain amount, in a factory with no ventilation that is basically built on a toxic waste dump. We don't really know. Such things have been reported in the past. Of course that is more efficient financially for the producer, but at what cost psychically to the planet. Just as I won't ride with dangerous or unthoughtful snowboarders, I try not to buy from ethically challenged businesses supported by undemocratic governments. The terrors that the PRC have unleashed on its own people and the occupied countries next to it (Think Tibet) would be cause for an invasion if they controlled more of the world oil supply. But it is so easy for Americans to write off a few million Chinese here, or a million Tibetans there and keep buying the good stuff cheap. Besides they all look the same anyway - right?? And there are so many of them. And they are so far away. And if you think you have me pigeon holed politically the NRA sticker right next to the Grateful Dead sticker on my van has left more than one person scratching their head. OK I am done now. Maybe I am pissed off because the mountain is closed now. If I offended anyone - too bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ealely Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Alpine is not a mass production industry. The Chinese manufacturers want to do it fast and make huge quantities. I can tell you that they would have very little interest in building 25 of this model, 15 of another model, and 1 of this custom... I don't think we're anywhere near the volume that would justify moving production to China. I agree 100%! celine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crucible Posted April 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Two hundred ski resorts are coming online in China? That's the most remarkable statistic yet. What's amazing is that 20 years ago there were NONE. Considering there are 1.2 billion Chinese, even taking a conservative figure that 1% of them would be skiers and boarders, that's still 12 million new snowsliders.... Talk about a new potential market- it could mean a new national dynasty in the Winter Olympics. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 The terrors that the PRC have unleashed on its own people and the occupied countries next to it (Think Tibet) would be cause for an invasion if they controlled more of the world oil supply. But it is so easy for Americans to write off a few million Chinese here, or a million Tibetans there and keep buying the good stuff cheap. Besides they all look the same anyway - right?? And there are so many of them. And they are so far away. liberal! hippy! naysayer! anti-american! oh...btw...another problem...we are building china's army for them, and once they're ready we'd better watch our backs. supporting a communist nation economically? I thought that was a bad idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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