Submerged in 2100?

[skatha]

Yes, it is sad that I can't expect people that move to this country to learn the language and I'm supposed to learn theirs....

Spend a month or two in TX, NM, AZ or S. CA, and you'll know what I'm talking about...since most of you are from the NE, you don't

[Gecko]

Yes, it is sad that I can't expect people that move to this country to learn the language and I'm supposed to learn theirs....

Spend a month or two in TX, NM, AZ or S. CA, and you'll know what I'm talking about...since most of you are from the NE, you don't

Been to So Cal...I do understand my aunt was a teacher and she had to fight not bilingual teaching but teaching the whole curriculum in Spanish/Chinese/Vietnamese/Thai/Loation/etc (this was the 80/90s) so that people had no reason to become part of this country

[Justin A.]

What really gets me is the new legislation that they're trying to pass to make Illegals felons. All the "minorities" are up in arms about it walking out of their jobs and school and such because they think that we're trying to send ALL imigrants back to their countries. They completley disregard the fact that its f*****g ILLEGAL. This is one of the few things that gets me really smoked up. Stop the world, I want to get off. I might sound like a racist pig, but I think we should make the national language english before it becomes something else. We just need SOMETHING that everyone has in common. I don't like the fact that when I drive through parts of nashua, I don't see any english signs (canal st.). And yes Skatha, I have been bitched out by them for not speaking spanish, nevermind the fact that they came here, where the "majority" speaks english and they just disregard that and oh boy I could go on for hours. It isn't that I hate minorities or hispanics at all. My best friend is 100% colombian, his parents were both born there, then immigrated the RIGHT way, and had a couple of kids. They all speak english (well, his dad pretends he dosent) and are functioning parts of society. What got me a few years back was when a couple of Puero Rican kids came up to me at Space Center (kindof a chucky cheese for an older crowd) and asked me if they could have some of my tokens, then got mad when I said no. I was pissed. Sorry about the rant, but I have alot to say about this.

________

Toyota Aa History

[skatha]

Don't worry about the rant, the fact is we are ALL immigrants, but, as mentioned by Justin, most came here the right way. When I was just starting out as a doc, before I learned to inwardly roll my eyes and not say anything, I had the translator say (and I know enough Spanish to know he said it)that my German immigrant family had come to this country 100 years ago and moved to an area(eastern Neb) where 80% of the population was German immigrants and they had learned English anyway.

Another story, the San Jose Earthquakes moved to Houston(a soccer team). Of course, being called the Earthquakes wouldn't really fit well, so the team president decided we needed to rename the team. He sought community input and made a decision which he said was supported by the Hispanic business community he interviewed. The team name was the "1836"-the year the Allen brothers boated up Buffalo Bayou(fancy French/Cajun word for swamp) and founded Houston. It was also the year TX won it's independence from Mexico and the year Santa Ana's troops were defeated at San Jacinto-also the year the battle of the Alamo occurred. There was such a public outcry, it was truly unbelievable. The Mexican immigrants stated the name was offensive and demanded it be changed.

The soccer team is now the Houston Dynamo.

[bobdea]

this excludes folks from PR, samoa and a few other territories of the US since they already are legal those folks don't fit into what I am about to say

I think that making illegals fellons is hardly a answer to the immigration issues we have, a better solution would be to make it harder to employ them and promote the idea that you can come to the US legally

1, hurt the employers bottom line much more than current law does

2, make knowingly hiring a illegal a felony

3, make it easier to come here and work legally while at the same time making it very dangerous for employers to hire people that either don't have work visas, US residency or citizenship.

4, make a law that says anyone that is caught paying below minimum wage has to pay back wages plus 200% back to the worker along with massive fines paid to the town, state and federal government including any medical expenses that the state may have footed the bill for this worker.

5, have immigration workers show up at all the known farms/factories where these folks work

[Justin A.]

Good point bob, all of those things except the immigration enforcers showing up at known points are included with the new legislation. I just didnt think to include them before. good call.

________

Turbo

[Galen]

this excludes folks from PR, samoa and a few other territories of the US since they already are legal those folks don't fit into what I am about to say

I think that making illegals fellons is hardly a answer to the immigration issues we have, a better solution would be to make it harder to employ them and promote the idea that you can come to the US legally

1, hurt the employers bottom line much more than current law does

2, make knowingly hiring a illegal a felony

3, make it easier to come here and work legally while at the same time making it very dangerous for employers to hire people that either don't have work visas, US residency or citizenship.

4, make a law that says anyone that is caught paying below minimum wage has to pay back wages plus 200% back to the worker along with massive fines paid to the town, state and federal government including any medical expenses that the state may have footed the bill for this worker.

5, have immigration workers show up at all the known farms/factories where these folks work

BINGO! How come some guy from Ma. gets it and so many along the mexican border don't? Having lived in San Diego from 56-84, I can tell you no amount of border security will keep these people out. Spend some time in Mexico and see how 95% of the people live and you'll understand why. Make the employers pay at least minumum wage and many of these jobs will be taken by American citizens, field work being the exception. Make hiring illegals un-profitable by imposing HUGE fines against those that hire them.

[Erik J]

I don’t think that the US is ready to keep "illegals" out. If you cook all of your meals at home, then you’re likely buying raw foods that were grown on a farm worked by immigrants that likely speak very little of our language or none at all. If you go out to eat, you are likely buying from a restaurant/food service business that employs immigrants who likely don’t speak English or speak very little of it. If you hire people to mow your lawn chances are high that the person holding the weed wacker can’t speak English very well.

I’ve worked in restaurants my whole life. I started as a dishwasher and worked my way up. I’ve worked next to a lot of Latin workers that didn’t speak English. I have my own business now and I hire a lot of Mexican workers. When I put an add in the paper for employment, the people that call are more often than not Latino and though many times I can barely understand their English, they get the job. I had one summer where I went through 15 dishwashers in 3 months; all of those workers were white Americans. Those English-speaking Americans that came in to work lasted for only a few days – some even less - before they decided that the job wasn’t for them. They would just stop showing up. They would quit mid-shift. High school kids would have their parents call 2 hours AFTER they were supposed to be there to tell me that their child "just wasn’t up to coming in today". When that happens, the rest of the staff needs to pitch in, including me. I’ve stayed past midnight (after getting in at 8:00 AM) on more then a few occasions to cover for some f#!%ing gringo that didn’t "feel like working". I’ve learned to speak a little Spanish because I now know where to find the best workers for my business. These people that don’t speak English very well show up to work EVERY day, never complain, say thank you when they get their two full meals at work and DO A BETTER JOB. These are the same guys that got up at 5:00 AM to work in the fields near our restaurant and then come straight to work for me without a break. I hear stories of burning eyes and skin rashes from these guys that happen because their white English speaking employer flew the crop duster over the fields while these non-English speaking workers were in the fields making sub-minimum wage to feed their families. Drive past some of the fields that they work in and the guys driving the tractor with the plastic suit on and ventilation mask are Hispanic. He’s somewhat protected but do you think he has health insurance. They have lot more stories where those came from. Do you really think American's are going to fill these roles in our society, from what I've seen - No!

If every non-English speaking person were to be forced out of the country the US economy would go to crap so fast it would make your head spin. So they don’t speak English – you know what – they are feeding your @ss, they are cutting your lawn, they are growing your food, they are cleaning your schools and hospitals, caring for your children in some cases. I don’t believe that it’s a realistic goal to teach these workers how to speak English at the rate that jobs are needed in this country. As long as privileged Americans want big houses, entertainment and a growing economy then this country needs workers to support that. You know who’s going to do those jobs? I bet if you’re reading this, it’s not you.

I am not pointing all of this at anyone in particular, and I’m certainly not condoning anyone getting b!tched at for not speaking English (that’s simply mistreating another human no matter what country you’re in) but my ears perk up when I hear people start to complain about non-English speaking people in our country. If you’ve ever spent time working in a field or the back of a restaurant (as I have) then you likely know what I’m talking about. Our country simply can’t support itself without these workers. And if learning some Spanish is the difference between coming home to your wife/husband while he/she’s awake or spending a late night scrubbing pots because someone with no work ethic decided not to show – what would you take. Ideally it would be nice and convenient for everyone to speak English but the reality that I have seen is a bit different. There needs to be a compromise. I learn some Spanish, they learn some English. That’s my compromise. It’s really not that hard, but fat Americans want it all. I believe having everyone learn to speak English is unrealistic in our society. Even getting some of the "gringo’s" to show up to work has been a challenge for me. I pay above minimum wage, treat employees like family, have these immigrants over to my house for staff parties, I’ve even let our staff borrow my own car for a week or so until they got their own fixed (the Mexican guys bring it back cleaned and full of gas, too). I need a job to get done – the only people that have proven themselves as trustworthy workers to me are barely-speak-any-English immigrants. Taking jobs from Americans? Please, show me someone that will do the work and I’ll hire them. I keep my mind open with everyone that I meet but so far that hasn’t been any American’s. Immigrant's are here - legal, illegal, speaking English or not- because American's have created jobs that our own society won't support.

Don’t even get me started on pretty boy chefs.

Anyway, google the subject – if you care (obviously I do) – and you’ll find all kinds of interesting stuff about how important these jobs are to supporting our economy.

I’m off to work to spend some time in the kitchen with my barely-English-speaking brethren. I know they’ll be there – simply happy to have a job.

http://www.boston.com/ae/food/articles/2005/07/20/kitchens_move_to_a_latin_beat/

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=travel&res=9406EFDD1239F93AA15751C1A963958260

http://www.dollarsandsense.org/archives/2004/0104labotz.html

http://ksghome.harvard.edu/~GBorjas/HeavensDoor/new_york_times.htm

[bobdea]

when I was in CO some folks who were making half of what I was making and I was at a whoping 8.55 so they were being paid below minimum and they still busted their asses

what bothers me is that imigrants get exploited here and are forced right back into 3rd world conditions even though they live in a rich country, often their life here is just as hard but at least the meager earnings they can send home add up to more than they could make back home thus it supports family

the myth of there is no way to support this country without extermly cheap labor is just that, at least within our own boarders, some things would be more expensive but for the most part the savings in labor just equals bigger profits for corporate players and we never see it

pretty much like putting prisioners to work for the private sector or for the state for extremely low wages, it undercuts wages elsewhere

FYI it used to be called wage slavery

The labor laws here in the US are quite lax, compared to much of the industrialized world though the last time I checked we still have a leg up on most of Africa.

anyone wanna talk about NAFTA? :D

[bobdea]

this thread was about global warming

[Jack M]

An eye-opening account, Erik, thanks.

That is probably true, but living in one of the most homogeneous states in the union I can't speak from experience. However I believe this malaise started a long time ago, with The New Deal. Create a welfare state where people can choose to be picky about working, and where responsibility for the individual falls on the state, and this is what you get. I think the Mexicans have the work ethic because they know if they don't work they'll starve and die. Americans simply don't live with that mortal fear. The solution to this problem will probably take as long as the problem has taken to grow. But I think we've got to take some kind of step in the right direction. We need to make sure the people coming here are going to be law abiding citizens.

Studies have shown that illegal immigration is a net drain on our economy:

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

http://www.google.com/search?q=cost+of+illegal+immigration

And then there's the crime:

http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/crime/toc.html

http://www.google.com/search?q=illegal+immigrant+crime

[Justin A.]

I agree with eric wholeheartedly, except for the justification of hiring illegals. I have no problem with them coming here on a work visa, as many in my area do, I have a problem with the ones who jump the fence and run from border patrol and get a job anyway. I have no problem with people not speaking english in their homes, or when they are in similar company, and I don't mind people that TRY to learn enough to get by. I have a problem with ILLEGAL immigrants and people who hire ILLEGAL imigrants. What's the difference between hiring an ILLEGAL immigrant and hiring someone who just broke out of jail? I understand hiring them if they have forged documentation, but if they can't produce documents and/or don't have them, no job. There are plenty of people who come into our country the right way that want to do those same jobs that the ILLEGAL immigrants are stealing. I don't have a problem with immigration, just do it the right way.

Notice that Illegal was emphasized throughout that paragraph to show a distinction.

________

LIABILITY INSURANCE ADVICE

[skatha]

this thread was about global warming

So it was......I think it's funny how Dr. William Gray of CSU, beloved by many on the gulf coast as being the hurricane predictor guy, has been quoted by the press as saying that are current warming trends are part of a climate variation that has existed throughout time and that our climate is suffering from human induced global warming....I wonder what he really said.

It reminds me of a religion prof at good ol' Baylor U during a talk cautioning the use of Bible quotes out of context-"The Bible says "Jesus wept" and "now go and do likewise" but that doesn't mean the two phrases go together"

[Dr D]

I've been to FLA-it's bona fide flatter than TX(we have the Davis Mtns, at least)

Ice skate the Okefenokee?

mount whatever it is and yes there is a sign on the freeway marking the summit is a whopping 84 feet above sealevel or something like that. I believe that it is indeed flatter than texas

[Dr D]

An eye-opening account, Erik, thanks.

That is probably true, but living in one of the most homogeneous states in the union I can't speak from experience. However I believe this malaise started a long time ago, with The New Deal. Create a welfare state where people can choose to be picky about working, and where responsibility for the individual falls on the state, and this is what you get. I think the Mexicans have the work ethic because they know if they don't work they'll starve and die. Americans simply don't live with that mortal fear. The solution to this problem will probably take as long as the problem has taken to grow. But I think we've got to take some kind of step in the right direction. We need to make sure the people coming here are going to be law abiding citizens.

I have absolutely no problem with immigrants in fact the more the merrier. However Since there is afine system for legally immigrating to this country I have a huge problem with illegals. Mostly for the aforementioned drain on the economy but also for their lack of investature in our culture. You can't have it both ways if you want to live here learn to speak english I would do the same if I retired to the mexican riviera. Legal immigrants are some of our most patriotic citizens they have invested their lives in becoming american. That's a fantastic commitment. Illegals have no investment and no concern for our culture or our laws. We need a big wall on our southern border.

As for the original topic. Mother nature can take care of herself its grossly arrogant to assume that man has the power to effect nature on such a great level. Go to one hurricane or one earthquake disaster sight and man is wiped clean out of the picture overnite. Its just like the body one big balancing act. when things shift one way you can be sure that they will shift back the other at some point. If we lived long enough to notice we wouldn't be freaking out everytime a journalist farts. The earth is on a much slower clock than we are.

how many generations of fruit flies live and die on one peach before the peach rots and then grows another tree and more peaches. we are just fruit flies in the grand scheme of things. for the uninformed fruit flies only live a few days.

[skatha]

TX has several mountains to choose from

see the list

http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/ref/abouttx/mountains.html

Now I realize some people may scoff at 8700 feet, but that's a bit higher than 84 feet

And, truly, if you look at the territory TX sold to the US to pay for its war with Mexico bill, if TX hadn't done it, we'd have several ski resorts in state-including, looks like-Summit Co...OOOooopppps!

Maybe it's not so bad we just visit over spring break

http://www.republic-of-texas.net/archive3/rt-map/RTMAP-4.JPG

[Mike T]

mount whatever it is and yes there is a sign on the freeway marking the summit is a whopping 84 feet above sealevel or something like that. I believe that it is indeed flatter than texas

From http://geology.com/state-high-points.shtml:

Texas Highest Point Guadalupe Peak, TX 8,749

Florida Highest Point Britton Hill, FL 345

Florida has the "lowest high point", edging out Delaware by a whopping 103 feet.

[bobdea]

prior to the new deal things were going so well

do you want to go back to uninsured banks, so when somebody rips off a bank(usually the people that run it) you're screwed?

Go ahead and put your money in a bank somewhere that has no saftey net, kinda like burying it in central park, it might be there when you get back but it might not.

Get rid of fair labor standards, so your local grocery store could hire your eight year old child to do mill work for a dollar a hour?

The whole idea behind the new deal was to keep people working, get them jobs and to help restore confidence for investors, not provide a free ride for lazy people.

It is true that many people do abuse social programs but saying they ought not exist is hardly realistic and would do much more hurt than good.

Did you go to public schools those are a product of a welfare state?

as far as stealing jobs goes there was a huge argument about this in the late 20s or so about women stealing men's jobs, it a invalid argument, the problem is that people need to be able to seek jobs legally in this country, not come here, get employment that undercuts wages for legal americans and not pay taxes.

Trust me on this that no mexican would rather work for three dollars a hour instead 6.50 even if he/she did need to pay taxes.

It's not easy to move here and stay legally for most people, I know this because I know a few who have tried.

[D-Sub]

this has to be the biggest topic leap ever. from the climate to immigration law, and whether or not immigrants should speak english.

hmmmm.

lots of protest goin on in SoCal right now, and...all I see is waving the mexican flag. makes me wonder.

[Pow]

well, if mexico wants it back, then good luck with that...

anyway, who's enjoying their global warming? the season's over already here. i hope for colder seasons in the future... still snow out west?

[Mike T]

well, if mexico wants it back, then good luck with that...

anyway, who's enjoying their global warming? the season's over already here. i hope for colder seasons in the future... still snow out west?

No stats, but seems like this season has been colder than average here in Oregon. Certainly more than average in terms of snowfall - Mt Hood Meadows is at 630" for the year, Mt Bacehlor isn't that high but I'd bet over 500. Bachelor has trail signs that are normally over your heard, at shin level.

[skatha]

this has to be the biggest topic leap ever. from the climate to immigration law, and whether or not immigrants should speak english.

hmmmm.

lots of protest goin on in SoCal right now, and...all I see is waving the mexican flag. makes me wonder.

The high schoolers are leaving class and marching. They all are waving Mexican flags, too.......

Such loyal Americans....

I think it's ironic, a fair number are probably the children of illegals and they are walking out of their free education while people like me with a mortgage and property taxes pay for it.....

D-sub, don't forget the educational bit about Texas mountains and that a fair amount of NM,CO, and WY used to be in the Republic of Texas

[Jack M]

anyway, who's enjoying their global warming?

Here in Maine, most public school districts have had exactly -zero- snow days this year. School's out on June <i>ninth</i>!!

[skatha]

Here in Maine, most public school districts have had exactly -zero- snow days this year. School's out on June <i>ninth</i>!!

Better than having 2 hurricane days...which the kids have already made up.....

school's out 5/24