What can you do in softies that you can not do on plates?

[philfell]

I was using competition as an example. I think competiton has a lot to do with this subject. It is an easy way to measure yourself verses your peers.

I think I interpeted your statement correctly. Again to a point you can do the same things on both set-ups. You can only go so far though with each. The fact that a world-class rider can't compete in a race while in soft boots proves there are some things you can do in hardboots that you can't in softboots, like handle the chatter as well, create the same angles, build as stable of a platform in a turn.

Likewise Ross Powers is a great hardboot rider, I'm positive that he could put on a pair of hardboots today and out ride just about everyone that participates on these forums. Given equal amount of time there is no way he could compete at a world cup level in hardboots. Yes he could go big in them, yes he could spin/flip and do all sorts of crazy **** in them, but he could not win an Olympic medal in them.

At an elite level all set-ups have their limitations, small as these may be they still exist.

[philfell]

I appreciate your point Phil, but that was not really what I was talking about.

So you were only taking about the bottom 95% of snowboarding.

[lonerider]

Man, now you've made me realize where I was wrong again - I can spin 540's standing still on the flats in softies but only 360 on plates.

(consciously avoiding main discussion topic)

whoa, you can do 540s? I just tried in my cubicle and barely managed to get a 540 in shoes (nearly flopped out into the hallway on one attempt). Can you standing do backflips (without the board).

[Phil]

So you were only taking about the bottom 95% of snowboarding.

No, the bottom 99.9%:D

I am talking about individual skills, not putting a competition run together on the wrong equipment.

After all, Bordy already claimed the 1080 on plates - how much further do we go?

I don't know if you read the whole thread, but if you put those comments into the context of everything that I have said, they may make more sense.

[Phil]

(consciously avoiding main discussion topic)

whoa, you can do 540s? I just tried in my cubicle and barely managed to get a 540 in shoes (nearly flopped out into the hallway on one attempt). Can you standing do backflips (without the board).

I can do standing backflips with the board on.

Yeah right!! I cannot (will not?) do back flips period. I had a bad experience once...

Front flips are another issue, but I still cannot do them from a stand-still.

The coolest thing I have seen while standing around trying stuff is a guy that can do a 720 on the tail of his board from a stand-still. Man am I jealous.

P.S. - a cubicle - that sounds so weird to me on the Right coast. I just put my daughters down for bed and am checking the 'net before I call it a night.

[philfell]

No, the bottom 99.9%:D

......not putting a competition run together on the wrong equipment.

So if there is "wrong equipment" than there must be some things that you can't do with that equipment in order to make it "wrong".

I totally agree with foundation of your debate, but you get to a point were you are limited by your equipment and this limitation is where the differance between being able to do something on one set-up and not on the other.

Let's simply stick to soft boots. Say I go into Dicks and buy the cheapest snowboard set-up I can. Yes I can go out and make turns on it, yes I could take it in the pipe, yes I could ride some pow with it. BUT I could never go as fast, be as clean, have the amount of control and I could with a set-up better suited to my ablity and riding style. On the fundamental level I'm doing the same movements, BUT I can't do it as well on the crappy board/boot/binding, this is were the differance lies.

For me simply being able to do a turn on soft boots and hard boots isn't enough. I want to make as close to a perfect turn as possible, that can't be done in softies. Simply being able to ride powder in my hardboots isn't enough for me, I want to be able to make the best of any line on the mt., this I can't do in hardboots or softboots. But I come way closer to it on softies eventhough in my life I've probably ridden hardboots 100 days for every one day in softies.

[dr. sandman]

yeah, it's me.

prize for whoever can identify the softies.

Oh, and Velveeta, you are worthless and weak. Drop and give me twenty. I can drive stick in mine. :p

Nay on the Sorels, those are US military issue "Mickey Mouse" boots. With air pump and all!! The huge toe box is the give-away.

Sweet!:D

[dr. sandman]

Eddie, great old shot of Sanders. I love this one of Jeff Greenwood. I've seen Mark Fawcett dominate a BX course in hardboots. Isn't this kind of a silly debate tho ? Personally, I love blasting through the bumps in hardboots on a twintip right behind one of my ski buddies right under the chair.People bug out.You can rip the bumps in softies too but it just seems much more painful when those boots aren't hardshells and aren't sucking up all the bang bang ...BANG! Jack, great shot of you too, man.That's some serious old school tweaker air !

Willy, I remember seeing this in the mag - what a wickedly sick power statement for hardboots!

[philfell]

Jack, it looks like you are modeling for the upcoming L.L. Bean catalog.

[kjl]

KJL,

I would challenge you to work more on doing all of these things with your ankles. From my experience, the average hardbooter's biggest downfall is thinking that movements start in joints other than the ankles. It is so easy to do in softies so most people assume that the stiff feel of hardboots takes away ankle movements so that movements must come from somewhere else. Just a thought to start your season. :)

I've said it before and I'll say it again - ankles, ankles, ankles!:D (just practicing for my hardboot lessons)

Hehe, I think you gave me that advice before, Phil! I can in fact do some edge control on the toeside edge with my ankles (the calf muscle is strong), but "lifting the toes" for the heelside turn is impossible for my weak muscles. I can't even flex the boot by pulling my toes up while sitting on the chair lift, let alone try to pull that toeside edge up while in a heelside carve! But the biggest thing I miss from softbooting is lateral flexibility, I hear some people (like the EC people and some others) have their standard bails set up in such a way that they can lean their boots left and right a little, but as far as I can tell the Intec heels pretty much completely eliminate that.

But in any case, I will work on it when the snow comes. You clearly know way, way more about this than I do.

Thanks!

[Phil]

Phil,

Those are good points. I think that I could sum up your point as "some equipment is not as efficient and effective as others."

I totally agree. If that were not the case, we would not even be having this discussion. If you are looking to have the most effectiveness and efficiency in all that you do, then by all means, have all of the boards that you need and enjoy (I don't think that crappy Dick's boards need to be brought into the discussion though:) ). There is a difference between what moves and skills CAN be done on plates and what they are most effective and efficient for. That is why this discussion is so intense. People apparently tend to think that you can not do a lot of advanced freestyle maneuvers on plates. The truth is, as you have pointed out, that plates are not as efficient and effective for advanced FS, but it CAN be done.

My statement to Nic was that it is the general public that needs to know about all of the things that you CAN do on plates. If I did not believe that these things could be done, I would not advocate riding hardboots the way that I do.

[Guest jschal01]

Another way of approaching it is, Are hardboot setups quiver-killers? Given the agonizing that goes on over board length, sidecut, dampening, binding choice, etc. even within the hardboot spectrum, it seems to me fairly clear that no one gear choice is best even for an emphasis on edge control that leads to a hardboot choice (not specifically carving, as there's more to life). A race board would not be a great board for most people, a freecarve board would not make a great race board in most instances. The issue of binding flex has been beaten to death, clearly there is no one right answer there for all tastes and all situations. Angles? All within hardboots, and remember, there's an even wider spectrum for softboot gear.

There are places where 10 years ago a lot of freeriders were in plates, then a few years later they moved in a lot of cases to K2 stepins, now they tend to be in straps. They didn't move to straps because they were stupid or victims of fashion or fell for some clever marketing campaign, or because straps worked better on rails, or even because straps got them more girls, they did it because soft boots and highbacks had evolved up to a level where they were the better tool for the job as they defined it. Over that same period skiers with the same emphasis also evolved further away from race gear and further away from gear with a pure freecarving emphasis, although in some ways less far away from park skiis. Because they all wear boots that have plstic shells, though, there seems to be much less of a "Sharks and Jets" mentality about the gear evolution for skiers.

Yes, both skiers and riders can and do take race gear thorough the pipe and park, unfortunately very few of them are Jeff Greenwood and when they do it they almost always cut up the transitions. It's still cool to see only because it's so obviously much harder to do (and they're no more destructive than other riders or skiers, the more the merrier to me).

[Phil]

KJL,

Sorry for being redundant. My memory is not that great and I am always pimping ankle usage to hardbooters. I have seen some in your situation where they just cannot dorsiflex. I don't know if the answer for you is softer flexing boots or hitting the gym - you have to figure that out. Once you are on the board, you can use your weight to flex them a little more than you can while riding the lift. I do know that my UPS boots have a lateral flex adjustment. I am such a big guy that flexing my boots was never an issue. My best advice to you is - if Optimus Prime can articulate the ankle in his boots, so can you.:)

As for everyone else, I have enjoyed a day where I had plenty of time to be online. That is a rare occurance. This thread has made it worth it to me. It was a great discussion and I appreciate you guys helping me to think through some things (most of which I was not even writing).

I am writing this final post of my day as I am up with my 6 week old who just had her first nightime feeding.

Good night and thanks for the chat everyone - 62 posts in 7 hours.

[CarvCanada]

hmm, well what can't you do in softboots?

I'm betting that with a 2-board, 1-boot quiver (something like, PriorATV and MFR, along with Malamutes/Drivers/Synapses) you could do anything you wanted very well, except on steep eastcoast hardpack.

Yeah yeah edge-to edge is slower, but some people like that feel and it all comes down to what feels good.

I love the feel of softboot carving. I like the floatier/snappier feel in softer packed pow. I also love the on-rails feel of rutting up eastcoast hardpacked snow on 57/54 hardboots, but when I move out West I'm moving towards softboots with ATV type board, and MFR type board with more like 45/25

[CarvCanada]

just read back some posts and realize people are talking about racing as well....

in my above post I should say that softboots are weak in 2 areas: steep eastcoast hardpack and race courses (almost the same thing :( )

I didn't even consider racing. I like to watch it and really respect racers, it would definately make me a better carver if I raced but I would never be able to do it... I'd just be smiling the whole time and wondering why I'm not ripping on a clear groomer, wouldn't be able to get pumped up at all because I can't take any sort of competition seriously for some reason. (I'm the dude who's laughing and can't understand why everyone's so serious when I accidentaly score on my own net in soccer, or when skaters start heckling me to stop riding in their area

OT- Why the hell do board sports spawn so many little cliques with attitude!!!?

[Jon Dahl]

is walk across the highway to the lodge at Stevens Pass w/o feeling the urge to rip 'em off and throw 'em away, due to EXTREME foot pain. But that's just me. I don't know about skinning a track in softies, but I've done 4 mile approaches in SB224's and was ready for more. I've done 8 mile HIKES (round trip) in my modded SB123's on a spring approach this year. You won't take softies above 14,000 feet, unless you like frostbitten toes. At 48, I don't do big tricks, but ollies are better for me in hardboots. Small (-20 ft.) cliffs in hardboots are O.K. as long as the L.Z. is soft! My best bump day ever was in hardboots. These are all personal observations, btw, and subject only to your observation and not flaming. Soft boots will rule for tricks at the upper end, just because of the flexability needed to perform them is unbelievable. Harder softboots carve well, but just not as well as hardboots, and I state that having done it in both, as many here also have. It all comes down to having the best tool for the way you wish to do the job your way, which may or may not be the same as me. Also, to flame a fellow forum member for lacking experience just because he hasen't ridden from day one is rather childish, my 11 seasons or anyone elses time frame. You with greater ranges of experience should enlighten with positive input, and visual evidence, or keep it to yourself. I come here to learn, and share where I can. Maybe you (and you know who you are) should do the same.

[philfell]

One question Jon, how much time do you spend snowboading above 14,000 feet?

[Bordy]

I had no problem getting frost bite in my Indys up in canada when the heater dyed in the start shack.

It might not even be around 1400 ft!

Philip I can't under stand why so many posters neclect to think of racing as hardboot riding?

Where would hardbooting be with out Racing?

[NateW]

I was going to come in here and say there's a nose grabby thing that I enjoyed in soft boots but haven't been able to do in hard boots... but Jack posted a photo of exactly what I had in mind. IMO that's the most stylish way to do a straight jump, but in hard boots I have to settle for a tail grab... which I like almost as much, but not quite.

Those of you having trouble spinning in hard boots - is it because of the boots, or is it the boards? If mean, if your hard setup is >165cm and your soft setup is < 160cm, then it's not necessarily the boots. :)

For me, everything got easier and more comfortable when I got into hard boots - carving, bumps, jumps, 360s, everything. And more comfortable. With soft boots I always had to crank down on the straps to feel like I had a proper connection to the board. Then my feet would go numb. I hated those things. I didn't switch to hard boots because I thought they would be better, I switched because I thought they would hurt less. I was glad to find that they give me the control I want without the pressure points. The fact that they give me so much more control was kind of just a side benefit. Did I mention that I hate soft boots? Hate 'em. Totally.

[Jack M]

Another way of approaching it is, Are hardboot setups quiver-killers?

I've actually never tried to ride an entire season (at least one that includes several powder days and spring days) on just hardboots, so I can't say from experience. But I think a hardboot setup with an all-mtn carver can be just as much of a quiver killer if not moreso than a softboot setup with a carvey freeride board. Neither are the best for carving or freestyle, but they're still pretty darn good in general. Actually watching Rob Cox work his Coiler AM, I'd say he's not giving up anything on the carve side of the equation. I've pledged that once my vintage '96 softboot gear craps the bed (any day now), I'll give up softies and get an all-mtn carver and some soft e-rings.

So I'd say that in order to fully enjoy the complete spectrum of non-competitive snowboarding (from pipe to carving), you could do it with only two setups. But no less.

PS - Bordy wins the name-my-boots prize. Bordy, you can collect at the ECES.

[Jack M]

is walk across the highway to the lodge at Stevens Pass w/o feeling the urge to rip 'em off and throw 'em away, due to EXTREME foot pain.

clearly you don't have custom footbeds and Thermoflexes. AAAaaahhhhhhh. Buckle up at 8am, unbuckle at 4pm.

[Derf]

I've actually never tried to ride an entire season (at least one that includes several powder days and spring days) on just hardboots, so I can't say from experience.

OMFG!!! An heretic! Burn him! :p

Just messing with you! :D

I rode several seasons without touching my old (older than yours - 1992) softboot setup. Last year I did, and I regreted it (probably because it's too old and soft). I'm going to try and get a new board this season to add to my freecarve board, either an all mountain board (~21-22cm wide) or a BX type board (~24 cm wide) with, of course, plates and hardboots. Unless I can try some flows and they kick @ss...

[Guest jschal01]

A lot of replies have focused on comfort issues for softboots, but seem to be referring to very old equipment (for instance, '96 and 92). Don't take it the wrong way, but if I told you not to buy a Subaru because over 20 years ago some of them had rust issues, you might suggest I try a more recent model before making judgments?

And honestly, why try to recreat a hardboot feel in Flows when you already have hardboots? The reason to ride softboots at all would then be to get a different performance.

With a proper fit and boot-binding match, you really shouldn't be getting pressure point problems too much from today's soft boots. Plastic shells definitely are going to be easier to blow out in most instances, but you can fit odd feet to soft boots too with a good shop.

The performance issues to one side, foot pain definitely can kill the enjoyment of a day, but there's no reason imo in 95% of cases for people to have discomfort issues in softboots that fit.

[Phil]

So I'd say that in order to fully enjoy the complete spectrum of non-competitive snowboarding (from pipe to carving), you could do it with only two setups. But no less.

I guess this statement is why I disagree with a lot of the posts. My opinion is just different. I enjoy doing whatever is on the mountain on whatever tool I am on. I spent a couple of seasons on nothing but my old F2 Speedster SL, TD1's, and UPS boots six days a week. (Preparing for L III). I really never regretted it. I enjoyed everything that I did and never felt limited.

On the carving side - how many of you have seen Randy Price's short radius carving section in the AASI video? He is on softies and it does not appear that he is giving anything up in them. That is some of the best short radius carve footage that I have ever seen.

[astrokel]

Phil,

Could you post the link to that video? I'd love to see it. Thanks!