Video after two seasons of harboot practice

[Xargo]

I got my first alpine board (second hand Coiler ECVC) just over two years ago and ever since I've been wanting to learn EC. Below is a video from this week and still some cleaning to do but pretty happy with the riding now. Time to spend the rest of the season (still over a full month left here) mostly enjoying the turns and less tryharding. This is with Contra ECC.

Technique improvement tips are still very welcome though. At least one thing I need to learn is to start the toeside turn lower.

[b.free]

I would highly recommend you to place your hands differently that way you don’t sprain your shoulders. Forearms should follow same direction as your board, no other ways, they should be parallel from your elbows with your board. You have probably seen this video. It’s pretty old now, but still very useful.

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by b.free

[barryj]

Hey X Man,

Nice riding for just your second season.  

Your heel side EC turns look much more natural and comfortable for you.     You do a good job getting your hip down and it takes the brunt of the turn and your arms don't have to hold you up ....but on your toe side turns your depending on your arms way too much to carry you and your weight through the turn .....

7 hours ago, b.free said:

don’t sprain your shoulders.

I agree with B....you got too much weight/pressure on your arms/shoulders on your toe side turns and if you hit some rough terrain in that position, which happened in your video...... your arms buckle and you lost your edge and that could dislocate a shoulder or worse.

You need to get your toe side hip down first and let it carry the weight and your arms can glide over the snow...not hold you up in a push-up position like is happening now.

Keep at it and enjoy the remainder of your season!

[redia]

Félicitations en deux ans

commencer votre push-pull plus tôt 

[Xargo]

Thanks all! Yeah I do agree I have to work to get lower especially for the toeside and position my arms better. Now I'm taking a bit of a break letting my hands rest a bit during the Easter when slopes are too busy. Time to watch some more instructional videos. That Ben's video is a classic.

Also I don't have any of those fancy slippery gloves or such so my hands tend to stick to the snow a lot but I'm looking to try some rubber coating next.

[Xargo]

Fresh vid from this morning. Helmet mounted 360-cam this time because I rode alone. I think the hand placement is a bit better now but still some cleaning up to do. Conditions were much better than usual so had a lot of fun:

3 weeks of riding left.

[crackaddict]

Hey @Xargo

Missed this thread the first time around.  Will you please explain this extreme carve to me?  In all seriousness. 

Sometimes called the "down un-weighted" turn, sometimes the "Eurocarve", it has more to do with compression and extension of the knees than weighting or un-weighting.  In a pencil line carve I'm tall at the edge transition and maximally compressed at the apex; in the EC turn the rider is maximally compressed immediately after the edge transition (while still riding the downhill edge sometimes) and then the legs are fully extended through the apex. 

Seems to me this technique aims to get the body as low as possible to the snow surface, and this is what I don't understand.  Why?  The pencil line turn has less chatter and less drag so you can keep more energy through the turn, and without chatter you can turn tighter and enjoy more g-force.  You can still get your elbows dragging but without any real weight on them, and you can make more turns if you don't displace so much snow with your board (just look at those heelside tracks at 57 seconds and 1:02 in the first video) and your body.

Your heelsides are much better than your toesides.  Your knees are straight through the apex but you compensate by bending at the hips over the front of the board so it puts you in a better body position with your shoulders somewhat level and facing the front of the board.   Some compression in the knees at the apex would smooth out the chatter.

In my opinion your best turns (first video) were from 14 to 33 seconds.  These leave a nice pencil line track.  Now, if you had left a pencil line through the first 13 seconds of turning also you would have come to the flats with enough speed to get a hand down for a few of those turns at least.

At 45 seconds you can clearly see the EC position, but the Eurocarve does have it's place.  That is kind of a high turn on a steep section and even I have been known to extend through an apex over a roller or across a steep face on toeside, but when I do it there's less weight on the hands and thus less snow on the moustache.  Also less chatter.  I call it the "safety turn". 

I also do the safety turn when I don't have enough speed or space to make the turn I really want.  Like you do at 53 seconds.  This was a good turn, smooth track.   Well placed if unfinished.

At 50 seconds there's a kind of proper heelside with level shoulders, this one is decent with only a little chatter.  Again, you're overcompensating for the straight knees by bending very far at the hips.  1:32 was another good heelside turn; well finished, good style.  It kind of works sure, but why?  

What is this style?  Why not aim for less chatter and a smoother, faster turn?  And more turns!  Why lie down on the snow?  For real.  Why compromise the turn just to drag your butt and your armpit?  Should you not maybe first master the chatter-free smooth turn before trying to do it fully extended?  Please explain the extreme carve to me.

And if you're dead set on learning this technique, it looks to me that the best EC riders have only the rear armpit dragging on toeside and the front arm down the side of the body (hand on thigh), with more open shoulders and less rotation than you demonstrate.  Try that.

Edited April 17, 2023 by crackaddict

[Xargo]

8 hours ago, crackaddict said:

Hey @Xargo

Missed this thread the first time around.  Will you please explain this extreme carve to me?  In all seriousness. 

Sometimes called the "down un-weighted" turn, sometimes the "Eurocarve", it has more to do with compression and extension of the knees than weighting or un-weighting.  In a pencil line carve I'm tall at the edge transition and maximally compressed at the apex; in the EC turn the rider is maximally compressed immediately after the edge transition (while still riding the downhill edge sometimes) and then the legs are fully extended through the apex.

Seems to me this technique aims to get the body as low as possible to the snow surface, and this is what I don't understand.  Why?  The pencil line turn has less chatter and less drag so you can keep more energy through the turn, and without chatter you can turn tighter and enjoy more g-force.  You can still get your elbows dragging but without any real weight on them, and you can make more turns if you don't displace so much snow with your board (just look at those heelside tracks at 57 seconds and 1:02 in the first video) and your body.

Hi @crackaddict,

I'll try my best. Hope this won't turn too much into can of worms discussion. I mean I don't have a problem talking about the topic, it's just that I've seen this escalate a few times. Anyways, I do agree with pretty much all your points and in my opinion they are very much valid. So I'll try to answer the "why" part. The simple answer is that it's fun and getting low as possible is indeed the key motivation for me.

The bit you mentioned about down un-weighted turn is really interesting, since while EC push & pull (P&P) turn does indeed use down un-weighted edge change, a lot of EC videos demonstrate top un-weighted edge change followed by quick compression to get into position where you can extend your legs (especially the rear leg) for the laid-down part of the turn. This in my mind is a technique error, which I'm also doing myself. Especially my toe side turns suffers from this. Personally, I can do much better down un-weighted turns with a softboot duck setup because that's what I've been riding a lot more than positive angles. The important bit is that the down un-weighted edge change is what makes linking the turns smooth and that's why it's considered essential but hard to master (at least for me). This is also what differentiates "EC" from "Eurocarves", which are not linked and usually only done toeside. More experienced EC riders feel free to comment if I'm speaking rubbish.

Anyways, I do agree that the EC technique aims to get the body as low possible. At least that's the main motivation for me to learn the technique. Personally I'm not trying to EC all the time but rather it's the technique I want to ride steep sections with. So I do agree with what you said that this kind of turn is best suited for steep sections. That's also the reason why EC riders search for well groomed steep slopes. Maintaining the position where you are really close to the steep slope is the interesting part for me. Of course ideally the board should still carve a pencil line but in practice it's really hard to accomplish and I do agree 100% that EC technique makes it harder to draw that perfect pencil line. The thing is, that it just makes the chase for that perfect turn even more interesting for me. Also having the front leg extended as much as I have is another technique error I need to clean up. EC riders generally like the aesthetics of almost fully extended laid-down turn pose, some others dislike it. Matter of preference imo but I do agree that it compromises the pencil line carve. That still doesn't mean it's not possible to do a pencil line EC turn. Makes for a nice challenge.

Also, as others have pointed out, I still place too much weight on my arms so that's just part of the learning curve. At least for me it's a mind game basically. I know I should have more speed to get lower without having to load the arms too much but then it's harder to control the turn (with more speed I mean). So basically at this point, I try to ride as slow as possible while still getting as low as possible. So loading the arms as much as I'm now doing is not a proper EC technique and something I'm trying to improve. Also, I've gone over the handlebars a couple of times with the toeside turn when I've loaded the nose too much and had a nose bite too much and then fold. That's one of the reasons why my toeside has issues. I know what I should do but I'm a bit afraid to implement that. The ultimate goal is to find a balance where I can get as low as possible while just gracefully touching the slope and maintaining the perfect pencil line. A lot to ask but doable in great conditions with solid technique. Don't know if I'll ever get there, but I'll keep on trying.

I do agree that 0:57 and 1:02 tracks don't look good. Too much tryharding to try to follow the advice given to me by that more experienced EC rider who did the taping. Here are some more successful tracks from the same place from yesterday (turns shown in the vid above):

Pretty challenging place to practice EC on this 20m wide 27deg steep slope with a 16m scr board also. The slope in the first vid from 0 to 44sec isn't steep enough for my liking and the 44 to 55sec has been in pretty terrible condition lately. So I have to work with this rather narrow slope for now.

8 hours ago, crackaddict said:

At 50 seconds there's a kind of proper heelside with level shoulders, this one is decent with only a little chatter.  Again, you're overcompensating for the straight knees by bending very far at the hips.  1:32 was another good heelside turn; well finished, good style.  It kind of works sure, but why?  

What is this style?  Why not aim for less chatter and a smoother, faster turn?  And more turns!  Why lie down on the snow?  For real.  Why compromise the turn just to drag your butt and your armpit?  Should you not maybe first master the chatter-free smooth turn before trying to do it fully extended?  Please explain the extreme carve to me.

Hehe, it's easy to see the different preferences here. The turn at 50sec is a failure in my book since the upper body is not close enough to the slope. 1:32 is better but shoulders still not close enough to the slope. I much prefer the 1:15 turn. 1:21 turn would have been the best out of the vid if I didn't hit a pile of loose snow with my hips, causing the edge to loose grip. That's also a good illustration of why you can only drag your body when groomers are still nice and intact. Anyways, my point is that to me it seems like the whole "why" comes down to preferences.

So why not do it like you described? I'm planning to. It's just that I want to also learn the EC technique so I can first ride EC with my current Contra ECC when groomers are still perfect, and after a couple of runs switch to wide Contra (which Bruce is building now ) and ride in pretty much the way you described (with a duck stance though).

So personally big part of the "why" is also versatility. Maybe I'll try to learn some butters and switch as well.

8 hours ago, crackaddict said:

And if you're dead set on learning this technique, it looks to me that the best EC riders have only the rear armpit dragging on toeside and the front arm down the side of the body (hand on thigh), with more open shoulders and less rotation than you demonstrate.  Try that.

Pretty much dead set. I've been thinking about that rotation aspect a lot. Finnish EC riders in general emphasize that more rotation, the better. I'm leaning towards thinking that it really is situational. More rotation results in more impressive pose but it also makes the board turn sharper, which might be too sharp for some conditions. For the slope I've been riding lately I really need a lot of rotation though. 16m scr board just doesn't make a c-turn pair on a steep 20m wide slope otherwise.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Xargo

[nextcarve]

12 hours ago, crackaddict said:

Will you please explain this extreme carve to me?  In all seriousness. 

It's really a great feeling, if it's done right - like embracing the world.

The following video shows some good examples of fast and powerful extreme carving, in a fashion I like to achieve (you'll spot the parts I mean ):

To me the EC technique is also a tool in you carving toolbox, which gives you additional variability and new sensations. Some like it, sometimes

[Xargo]

1 hour ago, nextcarve said:

The following video shows some good examples of fast and powerful extreme carving, in a fashion I like to achieve (you'll spot the parts I mean

To me the EC technique is also a tool in you carving toolbox, which gives you additional variability and new sensations. Some like it, sometimes

Thanks for posting that vid. To me the Russian EC style is kinda the extreme of EC. They go for a lot of speed and don't use much compression at any point of the turn (oversimplification ofc). Personally I'm looking for a bit more relaxed style and there are some Finnish riders I have in mind to show what I'm talking about, here:

Pretty old video but I still like the style. Though I would like to aim for a bit less chatter. That said, it's hard to do a clean pencil line on that kinda snow. Also boards have improved since that video.

That brings me to the equipment. I like wide boards. This is why I ordered my Contra ECC 247mm wide. Bruce told me it won't be ideal for EC but I still love the board. Now I'm getting a rather short 300mm waist Contra with 16m scr and I'm really looking forward to trying softboot EC with that. Others do spectacular EC turns with GS boards. This is another reason why I like EC and snowboarding in general. You can mix and match different techniques and really end up with infinite possibilities. Fun never stops.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Xargo

[skhil]

Hi, @crackaddict . I'd to share another view on EC that you may find appealing or at least comprehensible.

Laid turns are just a trick like the 360 carving you do. I'd like to say only one thing about it: to avoid traumas rider should apply as little hand pressure on the snow as possible. Ideally no pressure applied at all.

Tricks aside, I think EC can offer something more than that.

As @Xargo already said, EC is indeed technique for high pitched slopes with rather good grooming. If you ride steep slope you usually want some sort of the speed control, and EC is pretty good at that. It is done by making the part of the turn tangent to the fall line really short, I think that's the main point of standing not just up, but also shifting your weight forward (see ben's video above).

For me speed control is not the main advantage of EC. You can also slowdown by climbing up the slope in any carving technique. EC is also one of the least demanding way to carve. It was designed to take as little of your strength as possible. Consider push-pull technique. Why do you sit down before the turn and straighten in the apex? It reduces the travel of your center of gravity through the turn, which reduces the amount of energy you spend.

While EC may be more demanding to conditions than pencil-line carves it also is less tiring. If one rides 6-8 hours in a row it becomes really important.

Obviously laid-down turns do not help you to conserve energy. But cool tricks are not meant to be used on every turn you make, right?

[b.free]

On 4/16/2023 at 7:38 PM, crackaddict said:

And if you're dead set on learning this technique, it looks to me that the best EC riders have only the rear armpit dragging on toeside and the front arm down the side of the body (hand on thigh), with more open shoulders and less rotation than you demonstrate.  Try that.

Hey @crackaddict , can you pls show examples , maybe videos, of those the best EC riders you are talking about?! I believe those ride hardboots as @Xargo right?

Edited April 18, 2023 by b.free

[crackaddict]

2 hours ago, b.free said:

Hey @crackaddict , can you pls show examples , maybe videos, of those the best EC riders you are talking about?!

 

soft boots: 

 

hard boots:

 

[b.free]

3 hours ago, crackaddict said:

 

soft boots: 

 

hard boots:

 

Both video examples illustrate both hands on snow in toeside turns, no hand on thigh turns. 

[redia]

Rien de mieux que ceux qui on  inventé la technique PatriceFivat et Jacque Rilet  

 

Edited April 18, 2023 by redia

[crackaddict]

On 4/17/2023 at 7:49 AM, nextcarve said:

It's really a great feeling, if it's done right - like embracing the world.

Well said.

 

On 4/18/2023 at 2:53 AM, b.free said:

Both video examples illustrate both hands on snow in toeside turns, no hand on thigh turns. 

You're right.  I guess it's the heelside I was thinking of.  Some of the Asian carvers like to open the shoulders and underrotate on toeside with the front hand behind the back.  I'll post a link if I see a good example.

On 4/17/2023 at 9:35 AM, skhil said:

While EC may be more demanding to conditions than pencil-line carves it also is less tiring.

Interesting...

 

 

Thanks for the explanations gentlemen.

Here's something cool from the old school at my old haunt with my old friends...  Enjoy.

 

[Jack M]

This may come across as mean but I just want to help.  I don't intend it personally.  IMHO... honestly your video is perfect evidence of why nobody should ever use Extreme Carving as the example of how to start alpine/hardboot/carving snowboarding.  I've seen this many times so when I say "you" I mean it generally.  You are learning a lot of bad habits that you are going to have to unlearn. 

Your toesides are the opposite of what you should be doing.  You are bending over at the waist and reaching your hands down to the snow.  Your butt is up in the air.  This is unbalanced posture. 

Your first movements should be with your ankles, then knees, then hips.  Shoulders and hands should remain roughly level to the snow surface.

Your heelsides are actually pretty darn good, when you're not trying to EC.  When you are trying to EC, you're sitting down with your knees excessively and getting too low for the speed you have.  Often you just flop onto your hip and drag your body along the snow, slowing you down further.

All this dragging of parts other than the edge causes you to have to stand up and wait for an eternity between carves to regain speed.

Another thing EC preaches is rotation.  It's not needed.  Hips and shoulders should remain aligned with the binding angles.

When you are carving properly, fluidly, you will get low without even trying.  The ground will just be there, and your hand/arm can effortlessly caress it with little fanfare, and without reaching.  You would be a lot further along than you are after two years if you had disregarded EC.  It is an expert maneuver that should not be attempted until one is very proficient at carving.

I'll offer this video of myself although it was not intended to be an instructional video. 

[Neil Gendzwill]

Nice turns, Jack!

[redia]

41 minutes ago, Jack M said:

I'll offer this video of myself although it was not intended to be an instructional video. 

Bonjour Jack désolé pour le français 

vous êtes un excellent rider techniquement mes L’EC c’est toute le contraire de votre technique 

[Jack M]

1 hour ago, redia said:

Bonjour Jack désolé pour le français 

vous êtes un excellent rider techniquement mes L’EC c’est toute le contraire de votre technique 

Merci. That’s ok, my point was that EC is not a technique one should start with. 

[skhil]

3 hours ago, Jack M said:

my point was that EC is not a technique one should start with.

I beg to differ. If one uses a good tutorial (like ben's above) nothing is wrong with learning EC as a first carving technique. The problem is to master the technique you should spend a lot of time repeating simple moves before you can go any further. Cutting your way leads to bad habits your are talking about.

It works the same way for every carving technique I know. Impatience works against you I'm afraid.

Yet again you made quite a few good points which stay valid for EC.

Just curious, do you think rotations do any harm if you don't try to win races or carve on ice? I think they help you at first because you can look inside the turn.

[Neil Gendzwill]

1 hour ago, skhil said:

I beg to differ. If one uses a good tutorial (like ben's above) nothing is wrong with learning EC as a first carving technique.

Really. Before, say, learning to glide on edge with minimal inputs, or do a j turn?
 

EC turns are a fun trick that you can only do under certain conditions. They don’t form any basis for riding competence on a variety of terrain and snow conditions. 

[redia]

10 hours ago, Jack M said:

Merci. That’s ok, my point was that EC is not a technique one should start with. 

Je suis pas d’accord, le problème est que les débutants veulent coucher les virages trop car ils ont pas assez expérience dans la technique, ces une technique qui permet de rider dans toute sorte de conditions. 

[philw]

13 hours ago, Jack M said:

... opposite of what you should be doing.  You are bending over at the waist and reaching your hands down to the snow.  Your butt is up in the air. ...

That's what I see with all these styles. Bottoms. In the air. 

Perhaps the reason people do the "snow diving" and "bottom in air" tricks on those easy slopes they stick to is precisely because they're functionally bad - they're waving their arses at people simply because they can, not because it's useful.

 

To be fair I think the original post was asking for tips on how to dive for the snow, not how to learn to carve turns.

I like the Casper Carver's style, but it'd be better without the hand reaches, IMHO.

 

[Xargo]

15 hours ago, Jack M said:

This may come across as mean but I just want to help.  I don't intend it personally.  IMHO... honestly your video is perfect evidence of why nobody should ever use Extreme Carving as the example of how to start alpine/hardboot/carving snowboarding.  I've seen this many times so when I say "you" I mean it generally.  You are learning a lot of bad habits that you are going to have to unlearn. 

Your toesides are the opposite of what you should be doing.  You are bending over at the waist and reaching your hands down to the snow.  Your butt is up in the air.  This is unbalanced posture. 

Your first movements should be with your ankles, then knees, then hips.  Shoulders and hands should remain roughly level to the snow surface.

Your heelsides are actually pretty darn good, when you're not trying to EC.  When you are trying to EC, you're sitting down with your knees excessively and getting too low for the speed you have.  Often you just flop onto your hip and drag your body along the snow, slowing you down further.

All this dragging of parts other than the edge causes you to have to stand up and wait for an eternity between carves to regain speed.

Another thing EC preaches is rotation.  It's not needed.  Hips and shoulders should remain aligned with the binding angles.

When you are carving properly, fluidly, you will get low without even trying.  The ground will just be there, and your hand/arm can effortlessly caress it with little fanfare, and without reaching.  You would be a lot further along than you are after two years if you had disregarded EC.  It is an expert maneuver that should not be attempted until one is very proficient at carving.

I'll offer this video of myself although it was not intended to be an instructional video. 

No offense taken. I did ask for technique tips after all. Regarding the butt up in the air thing, I agree 100%, not a great posture. The problem is that I don't have enough speed in those examples and then I just try to do my best with what speed I have and that leads to having to go with that butt up pose so that the board can pick up some speed from the early part of the turn which will then carry me through the rest of the turn (poorly in those examples). The goal of course is to start the turn lower and with more speed and that's something I'm working on. Also this example picture is from a too mellow slope. 0:44 to 1:39 is steep enough and butt up is not that much of a problem in those turns (but still not nearly optimal).

The reason why my carving is decent when I'm not trying to do EC is because I did carve a lot with softboot setup prior to starting to practice EC with alpine gear. I can draw a clean pencil line no problem but EC is something different and at least for me, takes a long time to get right.

Which brings me to this point:

15 hours ago, Jack M said:

You are learning a lot of bad habits that you are going to have to unlearn.

It's actually just the opposite. "Normal carving" is what I have to unlearn and that has taken me the past two seasons. Here's a video from my early days of trying alpine gear. This is 5th session and the first time I ride with someone who knows how to ride alpine gear (I mean the guy who did the taping):

As you can see, here I do the basic edge change and compression the way you described (if I understood right). EC uses different timing as described above when @crackaddict asked what the technique is about. @redia also pointed out that the timing is the opposite in EC.

I could argue that the problems I still have with toeside turns is more caused by having done "normal carving" for so long and having mostly practiced heelside EC turns that I still haven't unlearned all that I need to. Particularly that means unlearning the up-unweighted edge change. I can do a pretty good down-unweighted edge change heelside but fail to do that toeside (with softboot setup I can do it just fine), which puts me into too tall situation when I should be squatting close to the slope and then I have no other choice than to reach for the slope butt up if I want to still go for the laid down turn (at that point I shouldn't really because the turn is a fail anyways). If I did P&P as shown in the Ben's video, I would be close to the slope and wouldn't need to stick my butt up.

If we then consider your video as a solution to the problem of getting as close to the slope as possible, I don't see how that would help. In a well executed EC turn, the rider's head should be couple of centimeters away from the slope when the board aligns with the fall line or a bit before that. If we take a look at your example, your head is still about a full arms length from the slope at that point (toeside, even more heelside). So I don't really see how I would achieve the goal of getting as close to the slope as possible (and as early as possible) with that technique. Smooth carving though, no argument about that. Just not as low as I'd like to get.

15 hours ago, Jack M said:

Another thing EC preaches is rotation.  It's not needed.  Hips and shoulders should remain aligned with the binding angles.

The reason why EC preaches rotation is that if you don't do rotation when doing a heelside turn, your butt will drop like in your vid when you go for high edge angles, which makes it pretty much impossible to get your shoulders close to the slope (as clearly shown in your vid). Of course rotation also helps to steer your board.

So my point is that how good the technique at doing something is a matter of how you measure that. I'm specifically interested in getting as close to the slope as possible and I find EC to be a great technique to get there. Also as @redia pointed out, you can use the core tool of EC, the push and pull, to ride all kinds of situations. However, it often seems to be a case that people (me included) don't practice P&P enough because they want to get to the laid down part of the technique as soon as possible and that causes all kinds of problems (like shown in my vid).

Another thing about that particular vid is that it includes all the footage I have. Taped by someone else I mean, I have plenty of 360 helmet mount vids though. I like to include all the faults in the vid as well so I can then later go back and see if I have improved.

... and here's a vid from my first alpine season some two weeks after the first vid of this post. Here I try to practice P&P:

Should have kept practicing P&P longer but I feel it's pretty impossible to judge yourself when you have it dialed in enough. No coach involved here.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Xargo