Video after two seasons of harboot practice

[Jack M]

I don't think anyone is bent out of shape.  People are just voicing their opinions, the raison d'etre of discussion forums.  Personally I have mixed feelings about EC.  On one hand nobody has inspired more people to try hardboots than Patrice and Jacques.  I thank them for that. 

My frustrations are that in my observation, most people who come to alpine snowboarding with EC as their goal end up with bad habits - reaching down for the snow, bending over at the waist, flopping from side to side, scrubbing speed and having to stand up and wait for speed to build again.  They go straight for the laid-down carves without mastering the basics first.  Very few people IMO ever reach the level that Patrice and Jacques have with their style. 

I find their highly prescriptive guidelines around equipment and stance to be unreasonable.  Flat bindings may be good for some people, but I'm convinced that's a bad stance for most.  23cm waist boards?  No thanks. 

I look to racers to see what technique works best on the firm snow conditions that I encounter most.  The racer style evolved from necessity, organically.  It generates the most edge hold and achieves the best balance in the body.  EC only works on very good conditions.  But like I said above, if you have good conditions, do whatever's fun for you.

[Xargo]

32 minutes ago, Jack M said:

23cm waist boards?  No thanks.

Agreed, too narrow.

It all comes down to preferences, some like laid down style, others like something else. Personally I find even sub-optimal laid down turns way more impressive aesthetically than pristine freecarve turns. That doesn't mean I wouldn't appreciate pencil line freecarving, it's just that I appreciate EC more.

[philw]

On 4/27/2023 at 1:09 AM, Neil Gendzwill said:

It’s a discussion forum, we discuss stuff. 

This.

I think riding with your bottom in the air is inherently funny and if we're talking about it, I'll be laughing for sure.

It seems common for people with hard boots to use equipment and styles which only work on really easy terrain - to me that's pretty much why the rest of the world went another way.

[yamifumi]

3 hours ago, Jack M said:

My frustrations are that in my observation, most people who come to alpine snowboarding with EC as their goal end up with bad habits - reaching down for the snow, bending over at the waist, flopping from side to side, scrubbing speed and having to stand up and wait for speed to build again.  They go straight for the laid-down carves without mastering the basics first.  Very few people IMO ever reach the level that Patrice and Jacques have with their style. 

This is great point about people reaching for the snow, dog petting, and bending over at the waist. I did that before (not because I wanted to do EC back then) and I didn't realize I looked "like that" until other people started to take video of me, it is a great way to reflect on the riding. Also, bending at the waist looks bad anyways..... Personally, I do consider @b.freeto be that "a few" who is at that level. Crazy dude. 

3 hours ago, Jack M said:

I find their highly prescriptive guidelines around equipment and stance to be unreasonable.  Flat bindings may be good for some people, but I'm convinced that's a bad stance for most.  23cm waist boards?  No thanks. 

Contrary to "Swoard Style" EC, @b.freecan EC any board: 26cm to 15cm. Again, I don't even know how he does it but just does it. And Swoard set up is wack, never liked it. 23cm is like a tank. 16cm is more like it. 

3 hours ago, Jack M said:

 EC only works on very good conditions.  But like I said above, if you have good conditions, do whatever's fun for you.

EC works on all conditions, @b.freewill ride anything and EC in the conditions that 95% of people on this form wouldn't even carve. 

[Neil Gendzwill]

26 minutes ago, yamifumi said:

EC works on all conditions, @b.freewill ride anything and EC in the conditions that 95% of people on this form wouldn't even carve. 

Bumps? Death cookies? Blower pow?

[pokkis]

Riding any style can be done on any surface, if rider has capability of riding.

Here is rider testing new totally different board he is used, this is his first rides with new board.

 

[yamifumi]

1 hour ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

Bumps? Death cookies? Blower pow?

Ofcourse...... and he can teleport ..... 

Edited April 29, 2023 by yamifumi

[Neil Gendzwill]

1 hour ago, pokkis said:

Riding any style can be done on any surface, if rider has capability of riding.

Here is rider testing new totally different board he is used, this is his first rides with new board.

Didn’t look like a particularly challenging surface there. Great riding though. Am I missing something?

[Ladia]

I would like to see EC on today bumps fields everywhere at Squaw. I always like all those videos are on empty and  pretty groomed slopes. Just try to have good time whatever style you doing. And believe in that. Any day on slopes is small miracle for me.

[Odd Job]

I'm currently on day 50+ on a set of pants that would normally have a hole in the knee + butt area.

I like not dragging stuff. I don't wanna play fashion designer side-projects with my clothing to avoid/mitigate wear. 

I'd rather have it abrade away and affect my wallet, so I have an incentive to not drag. The day it doesn't affect my wallet is the day I'll have a harem of Virus boards for every day of the week. Hard + soft boots.

[philw]

On 4/29/2023 at 8:17 PM, pokkis said:

Riding any style can be done on any surface, if rider has capability of riding.

Here is rider testing new totally different board he is used, this is his first rides with new board. ..

That's not "offroad" though - it's mostly not even off piste. You can see the piste markers. It looks weird, only works on easy terrain. It's all good, but a very limited way to ride in my view.

I do think the EC folk come across as prescriptive, but there's plenty of room. Perhaps the return of carving to snowboarding would have come from there with a bit more flexibility, but to me they lost the plot - I prefer "soft boot carving worth watching" to most EC stuff, aesthetically. 

Has anyone used the EC peoples' bindings? They look quite pretty and may well work for regular snowboarding.

In bottomless back country powder, I'm pretty sure you could not complete one single snow diving turn because you wouldn't be able to generate the force needed to get you back up. 

[west carven]

howdy

reaching for the snow, bending at the waist, butt in the air ... all not good ... huh??? ...

[b.free]

VS EC

[Jack M]

10 hours ago, west carven said:

howdy

reaching for the snow, bending at the waist, butt in the air ... all not good ... huh??? ...

Nice try.  That's not what's going on there.

[Technick]

Yes EC is fun but hard to master. To me it was a chalenge, a way to push myself to learn something that I though look super cool and fluid (when done right). I spent many years riding pretty much alone with no real carving technique, I learn pretty much by myself but was limited with my speed control on steep slopes. I discovered this forum by pure luck and meet with local riders so I could ride with others, witch for the most part where alot better then me. In 2014 I met @redia on this site, he was a local rider that i've seen at my local hill once or twice and was really impressed with his technique by behind able to carve really smoothly on black runs, even when there where alot of bumps and small moguls (I could'nt do that). To make a long story short, we rode alot together and he tough me the EC technique (witch he learned in Switzerland with the Swoard guys). Now I'm pretty good at it and really enjoy it when the situation is right, early in the morning when the groomers are nice and there is no one close to me (except for "Redia"). I still use the push-pull and cross-under edge change when I need to without laying down a turn. I like to mix it up and use both styles, they are both usefull, fun and efficient when done right. Having someone knowledgeable with you that can give you tips and correct your technique is priceless, thank you Redia!

I will look closely at your vids and try do give you some pointers...

P.S. To me it looks pretty good for just 2 years of EC!  

Edited August 14, 2023 by Technick

[Technick]

I looked at your head mounted camera EC video in detail and took screenshots to spot places where you can improve. All my comments are from my experience with someone how got trained by the Swoard team but everyone as there own personnal style based on the fitness, flexibility experience etc...

(to be continued) 

[Technick]

First screenshot, ending a heelside carving going into a layed frontside. You can see that you are still on the heelside edge and your body position is a bit awkward, hips and shoulder rotating to soon into the next frontside. Get your hips more over your rear boot and keep facing the front of the board a bit longer, you can start your rotation later.

 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Technick

[Technick]

Here we can see Patric Fivat at the end of a heelside carve, note his body position, hips knees and upper body. Facing foward, center of mass over heelside edge.

 

[Technick]

Here you are still on the heelside edge and allready reaching for the snow with your hands and upper body, no real change in knee flexion (no down unweighting).

 

You should transition and change edge by pulling on the board with your feet witch will bring it close to you and then you change edge...

 

Notice Patrice position when his right hand first touches the snow:

The body rotation starts about here...

Edited August 11, 2023 by Technick

[Technick]

Front side with both hand on snow:

 

Patrice when his left hand touches the snow:

Edited August 11, 2023 by Technick

[Technick]

The big advantage of using the full motion of your legs from really bent to almost fully strait (you always keep a little bit of flexion to absorb bumps) is that you can push early in the turn (carving the dowhill edge) locking your board in the carve in the first 1/3 of the turn, next 1/3 fully extended and gradually releasing the pressure in the last 1/3 before transitionning to the next turn.

Next, transitioning from toeside to heelside:

Try to keep your body rotation until you change edge to go into your heelside turn. Keep your left hand and shoulder over the tail of the board.

 

This will help you finish your frontside with power and control and better set you up for a good heelside turn. How you finish the previous turn will impact the next one.

 

Keeping the rotation on toeside:

Edited August 11, 2023 by Technick

[Technick]

Edge change toe to heel:

You have a bit to much upper body rotation to your right (too soon) and knee not flexed enough. 

 

Patrice edge change toe to heel, notice his hips and shoulder are aligned with his front foot.

You can start your body rotation as soon as you lock your heel edge.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Technick

[Technick]

Begining of your heelside layed turn:

Your are a bit late (it will help if you finish your frontside perpendicular to the fall line and use your knee to help your edge change). Your hips are too much on the side, try keeping your body strait when you lean in the turn, pushing your hips up as soon as your hand touch the snow. It will help stabilize the turn, prevent your hips or ass from bouncing on the snow. It will also reduce a little bit the angle of the board witch will also help stabilize the turn. Bring your left shoulder more to the front, it will rotate your chest more and reduce the angle of the shoulder of your right arm, it will be safer for your shoulder. Using mitts with some kind of rubber coating will help alot to slide better reduce drag impacts on your arm. I tried a couple of solution la Marine Shoo-Goo, Smooth-On "Econ 60" or "Econ 80" and Sikaflex Marine Adhesive.

 

 

[Technick]

Patrice heelside:

Notice how his whole body move in one block, starting with some knee flexion, the his whole body lean into the turn, shoulders, hips and feet aligned, he pushes on the board in the first 1/3 of the turn to lock the edge and lean extended until fully layed. Personnaly I dont go as deep as that in the heelside, I'm not that good and I feel that it's dangerous for my shoulder.

 

[Technick]

Finally, exiting the heelside going into the next frontside:

Your position on the heelside exit doesn't help you for the following frontside. That weird position; hips to the side and too early rotation put you in a "not optimal position" for the frontside. By lifting your hips up in the layed heelside turn, you will keep a straiter body and this will carry on into the heelside exit and put you in a much better position to follow through.

 

Patrice heelside exit:

 

Down unweighting buy pulling on the board and flexing knees put you in a good position to start a frontside early, smooth and clean.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Technick