Industry alignment for better exposure

[mtnpig]

Just curious if it would benefit carving exposure by having it more inline with the ski market. Expose it more thru the ski shops (and the snowboard shops also)? The boards and new parabolic skiis basically turn on the same sidecut/radius and flex principles like carveboards. It's marketing to the same "X" market (meaning people who carve or wish to do full turns) and there seems to be more "older" cross over skiers joining the carving ranks. Older folks seem to have more $$ for new equipmentand are more into quality purchasing. By older I mean the above 40 or so crowd. Don't mean to insult there, I was using myself as an example. Do you think the ski/snowboard riff is starting to close, at least in the social sense. Especially with the new young breed in the parks/pipes using the new ski technology? Hey could someone tell me the diff between a Skawal and a Monoski?

[nils]

Monoski: invented by Mike Doyle in late 60's. Two feet side by side. Was a big hit in the early 80's, especially in France ( not sure why, maybe because snowboard didn't catch until the late 80's here). After an almost total disappearance, it is now regaining interest with the new parabolic shapes, allowing the monoski to carve AND perform greatly in powder.. As a former monoskier, I can testify the tool is awsome in powder and moguls. haven't tested the parabolic shapes, but they seem to carve pretty well!

More info and vids here on the french monoski association ( i believe there is an american association since i've seen the website once..)

http://monoski.free.fr/videos.php

Skwal: Invented by Thias Balmain, a french ski/snowboard teacher in 92 or 93. First sold by Lacroix, then by Thias brand, and Volkl.

The two feet are one in front of each others; like on a slalom waterski, but with slight angulation. It is a carving tool, but can also go in moguls, powder....

More info, vids etc here:

www.skwalzone.org

Nils

[mirror70]

The overwhelming majority of skiers use shaped skis to skid (because they do that better than straight skis, too) and have never experienced a pure carved turn before. Most of them think they carve, too. Because of this, alpine boards don't have much of a draw for them. Simply putting the equipment in stores isn't enough. The reason you don't see it in stores is because when it was there nobody bought it.

The best way to get more people interested in the sport is to simply be out there and be friendly. When people see you killing it under a lift, they hoot and holler and then want to chat when they catch up to you in the line. As I've recently discovered, the same thing happens when you bring the gear to the park and do rails on it :D

[bobdea]

people who are seen riding all the time at ski areas like patrollers, instructors, events crews and even lifties would help move them.

as much as I hate to say it ski shops are a better place to sell alpine gear because they can actually deal with fitting boots properly.

think about what would happen if a jib kid were to help you with choosing your boots.

and I think crossover skiers are a great target for a few reasons

1 they generally are interested in staying in contact with the snow.

2 are not scared of a plastic boot

3 are not worried that their board looks like a ski

4 probably are more willing to drop big chunks of cash on gear, I say this because look at the prices for high end ski gear compared to snowboard gear.

5 most people who already snowboard have put alpine in sort of a catagory that is for yahoos or somthing this is not helped by the ignorance of people who work in some shops.

[Phil]

At a small area like mine, the morning skiers hate the alpiners.

"You guys are leaving big trenches in the snow. Are you trying to make us wreck? What do you think, you are some kind of racers or something?"

They won't be going alpine any time soon. I understand somewhat - after a few runs, our slopes are scarred - especially when there are a lot of us.

The thing that I hate is that every once in a while, I will go out in the morning and do the same thing on skis. None of the skiers ever complain.

On a different note, I see a lot of people skidding their alpine boards too. I don't get why anyone would go for hardboots to skid. I don't know for sure, but I would bet that most of the people who are happy to skid on alpine gear are cross over skiers.

[bobdea]

our trenches

are the skiers who are not interested in skiing as a sport they are out to do it for the image

the same people that ski in a one peice and take vacations at super sick places like alta or snowbird but never leave the groomed stuff

[Gecko]

years ago (man I feel old when I say that these days) a few friends and I wondered just what would happen to a trail that just boarders used what shape would the trail be in by the end of the day...you know ski'd slopes eventually bump up, I realize that a carve only trail is a dream discused here before but it's an experimant that I long to discover the the final outcome of. BTW this discussiontook place on a cold Feb day in front of the fireplace at Stowes main lodge as we took turns making runs in the -20* weather way back in 1987. We saw the beginings of long berm like mogel's being formed but there were not enough of us to do any serious trail modification

[Chubz]

It's is an interesting inquiry that I personally hope never "takes-off". Allow the ignorance we speak of reign free and keep our herd from growing.

This was my first season in hardboots after 20+ years in softies and I regret not getting into it sooner. In fact, I avoided it and talked myself out of it a few times, b/c I asked myself why I'd wanna do "that". After nearly 40 days this season in HB's I dont think I would ever go back to SB's and kick myself for not starting sooner. Alpine riding absolutely rocks and shouldn't be allowed to go mainstream.

Besides feeling the physics of good turns, a part of the reason I like carving is the uniqueness that comes with it. It takes me back to the early 80's when ppl gawked at me on my old Burton and asked what it was with some saying, "that'll never go anywhere!" Besides technology, I wish it didn't.

My wife may just say that I am a show-off and I like attention for being different, but I see it as that I like the occasional compliment or comment from others on the hill, lift or in lift line, that asks about the sport or tell you they think it looks fun or "pretty" as one woman said at Okemo last week. Besides I like being different anyway."

Since coming into the HB society, I have come to realize the appreciation most have in our group for the sport. Everytime I ride with others, this is reinforced, unlike many of the people I see on freestyle boards or skis that do it b/c that is what they are fed from the X-Games. I still recall a time when I had to describe snowboarding to people.

Alpine riding gives me a taste of what it was like back in the day and breaths life back into snowboarding again for me. Please don't let this version of the sport become diluted with those who have no comprehension or appreciation for it.

My 2 cents on a rainy day

[Derf]

Originally posted by Phil

On a different note, I see a lot of people skidding their alpine boards too. I don't get why anyone would go for hardboots to skid. I don't know for sure, but I would bet that most of the people who are happy to skid on alpine gear are cross over skiers.

I would disagree with that. Not all alpine riders are advanced riders, some are Terminal Intermediate™ like me. For example, when going down a steep hill, I carve when I can, but I have trouble controlling my speed, so I skid some turn, sometimes a lot, even more when it's crowded. It's not elegant, but it keeps me and the people around me safe. Often trails are not very wide, so it's not easy making wide turns to control the speed. I only ride between five to ten days a year, so my progression is slow.

I ride a small radius board (166 with 9.5m radius), I am not a cross over skier (never skied in my life) and I skid turns when I have to.

[Phil]

Derf,

Good point, but that is not what I was talking about. Skidding when you have to is different than skidding because that is all you do. That is what I was refering to. Skidding turns is a very important and necessary skill and there are advanced skidded turns that are as technical and difficult as high level carved turns.

What I was saying was that if you are ONLY out to skid turns, why bother with an alpine board?

[phillipsbro1]

Lots of good thought.

Carving used to be in shops....the market said otherwise

I'm fairly certain shaped skis came AFTER carving boards...they learned that from us....I mean how many years have skis been around before they figured out how to carve....versus how many years snowboarding has been around and how relatively quickly we learned to carve (and better!)

every single hardbooter has to skid before they can carve (unless you carved expertly on softboots)

Central NY mountains love alpiners....many many compliments from many many people. And this is saying something...no where have I been where I have seen so many expert ski carvers in all ages...they are like hornets under the lift.

It's very easy not to like snowboarders, especially very fast ones, sweeping across the fall line, digging trenches...so we have to go out of our way to prevent from being slandered, at least remain welcome, and hopefully admired.

We are very sensitive to image....We are vigilant about clearing our turns, stay way away from ski schools and munchkins and their protective parents, when we have close calls or hit someone, we apologize profusely, we are responsive and nice on the lift and in the lodge, encouraging any enthusiastic person to try it. By now, I think most people on the mountains have seen alpiners, so in order for the ones who want to crossover, they either go to their ski/board shops and ask (and if there is demand the shops will contact the manufactures to start stocking), but mostly those interested have to feel that they can approach you right there, in line, on the mountain, or in the lodge....that's the best opportunity to convert the willing.

That being said...I like the community small for the same reasons stated previously in the previous post. So I try once or twice enthusiastically, then I back off.

I do miss not having boards and bindings and boots in the stores to hands on investigate and try. I miss that Burton bailed after making excellent Factory Primes and decent, simple, relatively inexpensive bindings.

This is a great club, alright and I like that we all seem to know each other by only one or two associations (carver to carver to carver)

[Guest Frappe]

stay way away from ski schools and munchkins

You mean the mobile slalom gates? ;)

[FTA2R]

"mobile gates" lol I refer to them as "human gates." ski school lines= "snakes"

Philipsbro, I remember going to Tog my freshman year of college up there. What's up all you CNY BOL folks! SU choked! (unfortuenately).

Ever go to Lab? I had season passes there a few years.

===

Barry

[Chubz]

Good Input.

Cost although can be an issue for me, just ask my wife, I do what it takes to get what I feel I need. Work a weekend job for a neighbor, sell other boards (wake or snow), sell some of that old crap sitting in the basement or garage, limit the number of times I go out to eat or out for beers, sell the Harley. It is expensive, my wife just ran me through my expenditures last night, a little inflated if you ask me, but we'll work it into next year's business plan:)

As my friend Jesse refers to them, "Meat Gates" and we get quite a few of them on the weekends. Although last weekend showed significant decreases in crowds since the snow melted on the ground at home.

[k_t]

Originally posted by Gecko

years ago (man I feel old when I say that these days) a few friends and I wondered just what would happen to a trail that just boarders used what shape would the trail be in by the end of the day...you know ski'd slopes eventually bump up, I realize that a carve only trail is a dream discused here before but it's an experimant that I long to discover the the final outcome of. BTW this discussiontook place on a cold Feb day in front of the fireplace at Stowes main lodge as we took turns making runs in the -20* weather way back in 1987. We saw the beginings of long berm like mogel's being formed but there were not enough of us to do any serious trail modification

Seems to me that at the Buttermilk during the last two SES’s there were mostly just carvers on a couple of runs and by mid day with about 50+ carvers making laps on them they got very well hammered. We spent a lot of time on these runs because the slow fixed double chair kept most others (skiers) away and off of the runs in that area. I do not remember bumps getting formed but the surface began to get very loose. By surface I mean about 4 to 6 inches deep. Imagine what a huge rototiller might do.

[Jack M]

Originally posted by Derf

I would disagree with that. Not all alpine riders are advanced riders, some are Terminal Intermediate™ like me.

Good grief Derf! I've been holding this back for a while. I've never seen you ride, so this opinion is just based on the things you type here. I would wager that you are a terminal intermediate because you choose to be and perhaps even subconsciously are afraid to progress. Up until this week your avatar was a Burton Carrier binding, and you've often extolled the virtues of your beloved Burton Alp. If you are happy to be a terminal intermediate, then great, have fun, and stop reading this here.

But I don't think you are content to be an intermediate forever. If you're not, then let me give you a little piece of advice - your equipment is jay you en kay JUNK!!! Junk junk junk. Bro, get some new gear. Please! For the love of Pete man! Stop the madness! Get some real bindings, put some thermoflexes in your boots, get a Donek 171fcII or even a Pilot, and take a lesson already!! Enough of this defeatist "terminal intermediate" nonsense talk. Your time is now. I'm calling you out!

Just trying to help. I got nuttin' but love for ya.

[Derf]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud

Good grief Derf! I've been holding this back for a while. I've never seen you ride, so this opinion is just based on the things you type here. I would wager that you are a terminal intermediate because you choose to be and perhaps even subconsciously are afraid to progress. Up until this week your avatar was a Burton Carrier binding, and you've often extolled the virtues of your beloved Burton Alp. If you are happy to be a terminal intermediate, then great, have fun, and stop reading this here.

But I don't think you are content to be an intermediate forever. If you're not, then let me give you a little piece of advice - your equipment is jay you en kay JUNK!!! Junk junk junk. Bro, get some new gear. Please! For the love of Pete man! Stop the madness! Get some real bindings, put some thermoflexes in your boots, get a Donek 171fcII or even a Pilot, and take a lesson already!! Enough of this defeatist "terminal intermediate" nonsense talk. Your time is now. I'm calling you out!

Just trying to help. I got nuttin' but love for ya.

I could add a couple of notes here.

First, the "Terminal Intermediate" thing is more of a joke than anything else, I was refering to a really old argument I read on the site and was wondering if anyone would pick it up, hence the capitals and the TM at the end.

Second, I am in fact an intermediate rider, not because I want to, but because I have other interests and I consequently only ride 5 to 10 days each season, and I do the most out of those days. My riding as greatly improved the last 2 winters because I read what people say, and tryed it at the slopes. The reason I talked about skidding is because this is the step I am at. On blue runs, I carve low and fast, but now I am working on the steeps (easy black diamonds), and I find it hard to do complete half circles to control the speed because of the conditions and the people around me.

Third, if you check my profile, you will see what I ride. My bindings are Burton Performance, not Carriers. They are more similar to the Race bindings than the Carriers because they still have an aluminum plate underneath, so they are not that bad even if they are no Snowpros or F2. Sure I would like better, more adjustable binds, but it can get expensive. My board is not an Alp, it is a Nitro GTX, a very capable deck that I would gladly compare to a Donek FC, except that I have never ridden one (maybe I should ask CarvCanada). The board is stiff enough that when I overload the nose, it never folds but the board is soft enough overall to carve without going too fast. For the boots, I have some Burton Furnace boots, comfy enough for now, I am thinking about Thermoflex eventually, but not this year.

Don't worry, I did not take offence or anything about what you said (because I know some people here are quicker to snap...)

Maybe some day we'll get the occasion to ride together.

[Derf]

Jack,

I forgot: I had my bindings in my avatar not because I praise them, but because I modeled them in one of my CAD courses and I am proud of the work I did.

[D-Sub]

I dont think the boots are that expensive, again compared to ski boots, but ski boots are far more advanced!

I think that a lot of people here ARE cheapskates (me included if you ask Bola;)) and really do want a LOT for practically nothing sometimes

we have to remind ourselves that capitalism works both sides...if you arent willing to pay the price it takes to keep the gear you want in production, it will disappear. people like bomber, catek, coiler, prior, donek and all the little guys...theyre really worthy of much praise!

[Jack M]

Very well then, I stand corrected about your gear. However as I am not a fan of Race Plates, and Performance Plates being worse than Race Plates (sizing mechanism is weaker/flexier), I still say you need new bindings. I've never ridden Nitro boards, but their dimensions from the 03 buyer's guide do not impress me (weird too-short decreasing radius sidecuts). Also, boards made by companies who are about to get out of alpine tend to be old-tech. And Nitro is now out of alpine, yes? I would bet any sum that a Donek would beat a Nitro.

I dunno, but it sounds like you're ready for the next step. So stop talking about being a terminal intermediate and invest in some equipment, I think you've earned it, and you won't regret it!

:)

[Derf]

I've never skied or been interested in skiing, so I know very little about ski boots. From what I know, there is less technology in ski boots than in snowboard boots. Ski boots have 4 buckles, a DIN sole and sometimes a walk ride mechanism and that's it. The only tech I see is in the shell shape and materials. Snowboard boots have a lean mechanism with adjustable spring, presets, adjustable lean angle, sometimes a return spring and a canting mechanism in addition to the buckles and the shell. So I don't really understand how ski boots can be more expensive unless it is to pay the athletes that make some publicity for them.

As for the two sides argument, I agree entirely. The thing that varies is where one sets his limit at what is too expensive and what is not. I look at 550$CDN boots (Head and UPZ) and think they are too expensive, but if they where 350$CDN, maybe I would replace my old boots. Same goes for 400$CDN bindings (Bombers and Cateks), if they where 250$CDN, maybe I would go for it. At this price, I get plastic bindings like what I have. So I end up buying nothing or used stuff, so instead of getting little money, the company gets no money, so the right balance is not always easy to find for both the consumer, the manufacturer and the reseller.

[D-Sub]

bombers are $400 canadian? thats $330 or so US...$50 more than they are here...

I get your point, but...if bomber for instance were to sell for $250 can, I dont think theyd make any money! And they need to do more than just break even to stay in biz, which I and many others certainly want them to do.

agreed on the boots though, altho Im not certain about ski boot technology either

[Mike T]

Originally posted by D-Sub

bombers are $400 canadian? thats $330 or so US...$50 more than they are here...

I get your point, but...if bomber for instance were to sell for $250 can, I dont think theyd make any money! And they need to do more than just break even to stay in biz, which I and many others certainly want them to do.

agreed on the boots though, altho Im not certain about ski boot technology either

One thing to consider is that some of the higher end items, especially current-generation Bomber and Catek bindings, retain a lot of their value even after lots of use. But yeah, I know that's no help for someone who's cash poor - can't afford to buy new ones, can't afford to buy used ones!

As far as ski boots - aren't high-end ski boots a heck of a lot lighter than snowboard hard boots - at least lighter than Head and Deeluxes? My understanding - please correct me if I am wrong is that there have been steady advances in materials technology over the years and that these changes have not been applied to snowboard boots.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Derf

I've never skied or been interested in skiing, so I know very little about ski boots. From what I know, there is less technology in ski boots than in snowboard boots. Ski boots have 4 buckles, a DIN sole and sometimes a walk ride mechanism and that's it. The only tech I see is in the shell shape and materials. Snowboard boots have a lean mechanism with adjustable spring, presets, adjustable lean angle, sometimes a return spring and a canting mechanism in addition to the buckles and the shell. So I don't really understand how ski boots can be more expensive unless it is to pay the athletes that make some publicity for them.

See I'm not so sure about that. There are less "moving parts" in in a ski boot, but I don't think that necessarily means there is less development being done. Let me precurse ALL of this by saying I'm not an expert and I'm not even an engineer in the true sense, so these are just my opinions submitted for consideration.

First, all the forward lean mechanism, cant settings, and springs in the Raichle/Deeluxe and Burton boots haven't changed in nearly a decade. So I don't really consider those to be "technology" anymore if you are just using the same parts you did 10 years ago. Maybe there are slightly different, but I bet I could pull out the Forward Lean mechnism of my SB224 (circa '97) and put them in my Lemans (circa 2004) and not notice much difference.

Second, I think there have been noticeable advances in both the materials used in the newer ski boots and the design of the shell itself - lighter, stronger, more resistant to temperature variations. Pick up a pair of boots from ten years ago and a pair of boots today and todays boots are going to be much lighter and the flex pattern is more "natural" for lack of a better term. Pick up a SB324 from 8 years ago, and it is essentially the same plastic and EXACTLY the same mold as today's Lemans (I could be wrong... on "exact" but let just says extremely close and there are several models that fit that characterization).

So better fasteners (buckles), better shell design (more consistent flex), and better materials (strong, lighter plastic)... seems to me that ski boots should be more expensive.

Again, I'm not an expert on ski boots or alpine boots... all these conclusions are draw from me going into a store and holding the boots in my hand. So correct me if I'm wrong.

[Fleaman]

Hey Derf, the main thing here is that you ride alpine. I dont care what you ride on, at long as you are having fun. I started on and old asym board with a repaired split and some old drill and tap plates. I rode this board for 3 years before I bought (pro deal) a rossi alpine. I then rode this for 7 years before I finally bought a coiler( I now have 2) but I still have ****ty bindings. I shamed my brother into buying boots for xmas for me. Meanwhile, the whole time I had a blast. If I saw a dude riding with a PJ or something like that, I would encourage him and give him mad props.

Getting back to the subject, It would be nice for shops to carry more equipment, but I thing also that the lack of snowboard racing at small local hills is also a detriment. There are snowboard races, but most amateur racers are more into the snowboard cross or freestyle where they can use soft gear and there is a bit of organized training. Where do you train for a snowboard race? Even freestyle skiing is huge, but there isn't much organized freestyle snowboarding other than competitions or snow jams. There is no structure for kids to get into competitive snowboarding unless you are lucky enough to live close to a training center which are far and few between.