pokkis Posted April 1, 2019 Report Share Posted April 1, 2019 I've been using MS with standard tongue and with softer of two standard springs, and DeeLuxes, and UPZ with red and black tongues. MS is great boot, very comfy, and i would have kept them, but i cold not survive with clip-in bindings, my stomach prevents me to close bindings so i returned to UPZ. Standard tongue of MS is equal for black one of UPZ, so there is none to compare to UPZ red one. Springs on them are easy to replace with standard industrial springs if ones provided are not soft enough. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted April 1, 2019 Report Share Posted April 1, 2019 @Aracan Shells: 100, 120 Tongues: 100, 110, 120 Springs: Extra Soft (green), Soft (blue), Medium (Red), Hard (yellow) The Standard stiffness comes with 100 shell, 100 tongue, Soft and Medium springs The World Cup stiffness comes with 120 shell, 120 tongue, Medium and Hard springs You can order the any of the tongues and springs directly through MS, don't think they're on the website. From what I understand, though, there are no stiffnesses in the range of the AT8 and the Red tongue on the UPZ. Also, I don't think you can achieve the large range of forward flex which you can with DGSS when the forward spring is used with little to no preload. But, I think I heard that they are working on a model for children/lighter riders, which will be more flexible (not sure on sizing for this) and these may fit the bill once released. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aracan Posted April 1, 2019 Report Share Posted April 1, 2019 We'll see. Although I suspect that at MP 28.5 I'll have a tough time getting into a boot aimed at children 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted April 1, 2019 Report Share Posted April 1, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, daveo said: Shells: 100, 120 Tongues: 100, 110, 120 Looking at high stiffness of the modern boots, it's really strange that so many people insist that ski boots are not good for alpine. It's easy to find ski or AT boots in 100 range flex, while shape choices snd prices are better... The only down side is the longer sole on most models (but not all). Edit: Springs probably take more work. Edited April 1, 2019 by BlueB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted April 1, 2019 Report Share Posted April 1, 2019 47 minutes ago, BlueB said: Looking at high stiffness of the modern boots, it's really strange that so many people insist that ski boots are not good for alpine. It's easy to find ski or AT boots in 100 range flex, while shape choices snd prices are better... The only down side is the longer sole on most models (but not all). Edit: Springs probably take more work. Maybe the stiffness ratings are not comparable. I am running the stiffest tongues in my UPZs, which others have reported are similar to the Mountain Slope .951WC, which are rated at 120 stiffness. A few years ago I tried using Salomon ski boots rated at 130. I couldn't even snowboard in them, let alone carve. I felt like my feet and legs were encased in concrete. And yes my bindings were set up properly. Some riders here have had good luck with Full Tilt ski boots, which are basically Raichle Flexons. Like you say I think the design of the boot and spring system if applicable has a lot to do with it. On 3/29/2019 at 10:56 PM, daveo said: My opinion differs from @Jack M's in this instance. I couldn't carve on softboots. First turn I made on hardboots was a carve. I would wager your experience is not typical, based on the number of people I've taught and helped. Which is fine, different people do things differently, like people who skateboard mongo. My nephew's friend is a good softboot carver. He finally tried my nephew's UPZs and Kessler 156 a few weeks ago and took right off without a shred of advice. It only makes sense that experiencing a sensation (carving) on familiar equipment will make it easier to reproduce on unfamiliar equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted April 1, 2019 Report Share Posted April 1, 2019 5 minutes ago, Jack M said: Maybe the stiffness ratings are not comparable. Beat me to it... 5 minutes ago, Jack M said: I would wager your experience is not typical, based on the number of people I've taught and helped. This is quite possible. I am a crummy softboot rider, just a less crummy hardboot rider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missionman Posted April 1, 2019 Report Share Posted April 1, 2019 24 minutes ago, Jack M said: I would wager your experience is not typical, based on the number of people I've taught and helped. Which is fine, different people do things differently, like people who skateboard mongo. My nephew's friend is a good softboot carver. He finally tried my nephew's UPZs and Kessler 156 a few weeks ago and took right off without a shred of advice. Interesting. I could carve reasonably well on my toe side on softboots before jumping on to hardboots, but on heel side i would typically start (transition from toe) with slarving before getting into a carve midway and at bottom of carve. I only got better at the heel side after getting on hardboots. Not sure if that puts me closer to Daveo or 'typical'. I do know that my softboot carving has certainly improved with hardbooting, and vice versa actually - i don't think that's atypical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted April 1, 2019 Report Share Posted April 1, 2019 I could immediately carve tighter and better in hardboots than softboots and my softboot carving improved once I had ridden hardboots a couple of times. It might have just been my focus on studying technique before I stepped on hardboots improved my carving overall. I started on hardboots trying to ride shoulders perpendicular to the board. That made an awkward softboot technique. Fortunately I quickly switched to shoulders perpendicular to my binding angles for both hard and softboots. Oh, the burning quads of those first few days! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRUPI Posted April 1, 2019 Report Share Posted April 1, 2019 (edited) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From what I understand, though, there are no stiffnesses in the range of the AT8 and the Red tongue on the UPZ. Also, I don't think you can achieve the large range of forward flex which you can with DGSS when the forward spring is used with little to no preload. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Example of flex, of UPZ RC 10 + red tongue + DGSS with green springs https://youtu.be/KGDGLC4N2Vo Edited April 1, 2019 by DRUPI 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted April 1, 2019 Report Share Posted April 1, 2019 @bryandifrancesco You wrote that you wanted to "carve amazing turns" having watched others do it. What kind of "amazing" do you want to start with? Just leaving clean C's behind you as you freecarve the mountain? Getting really low with the sides of your trousers and forearms on the snow? Full blown body dragging Eurocarve /Vitelli turns? Pureboarding style as per Joerg Egli? Race carving through a NASTAR course or similar? Your answer will help others help you get there faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted April 1, 2019 Report Share Posted April 1, 2019 1 hour ago, DRUPI said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From what I understand, though, there are no stiffnesses in the range of the AT8 and the Red tongue on the UPZ. Also, I don't think you can achieve the large range of forward flex which you can with DGSS when the forward spring is used with little to no preload. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Example of flex, of UPZ RC 10 + red tongue + DGSS with green springs https://youtu.be/KGDGLC4N2Vo Look at that beautifully engineered system. Love it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 10 hours ago, Jack M said: Maybe the stiffness ratings are not comparable. Read something recently where the ratings tend to be relative within a brand, rather than across all brands. For instance, your 130 flex Salomons might be significantly stiffer than my 150 Langes. Which would explain a few things. 11 hours ago, BlueB said: it's really strange that so many people insist that ski boots are not good for alpine. It's easy to find ski or AT boots in 100 range flex, while shape choices snd prices are better... Not that strange. Mostly tribal, with a side order of commerce, and a dash of 'my friend said it won't work'. If the OP happens to telemark in the NTN version of the Scott/Garmont boot, he can use that as transitional footwear. 10 hours ago, Missionman said: Not sure if that puts me closer to Daveo or 'typical'. Typical for softbooters to skid more on the heelside, and rail easier on the toeside. That same rider on hardboots can enlist the added leverage to use edge angle as a means of compensating for inadequate weight distribution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 21 hours ago, daveo said: Even though you've stopped by a thread asking for equipment advice and not provided any Providing equipment advice without constructing some sort of athlete profile, or at the very least having some idea of the 'problem' at hand, amounts to a vanity project. What works for you (or those in your circle) may not work at all for someone you know next to nothing about. The bulk of the advice given is equipment related, but the original question is still: On 3/27/2019 at 10:19 PM, bryandifrancesco said: I want to get into this sport right the first time. What do you suggest? I'd suggest more questions of the OP, and fewer assumptions about the OP. He's got experience on three platforms, each of which likely reflect his preferences in both performance, terrain, and movement. Whether or not he actively pursues all three, or is inclined toward one or the other, will provide additional information as to how he might approach alpine snowboarding. And so on. 21 hours ago, daveo said: About time we saw eye to eye on something. About that... About time you checked the date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted April 2, 2019 Report Share Posted April 2, 2019 51 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said: About that... About time you checked the date. Actually, I think I beat you to that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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