Board specs - technical questions

[snowcat_az]

Hi everyone,

Potentially looking into replacing 2008 F2 Speedster RS 177 (14m SC) with a custom made new board of equivalent role. For riding, I do both slalom-style open turns ("pumping" w/o edge drop) and traditional carving, about 50/50. Would like to improve speed control at steep slopes and edge hold at high speeds. So the questions:

1. Makes sense to go shorter, given 10 yrs of technology advance ? 173 cm ?

2. Stiffer board with smaller SC vs softer with larger SC - how to choose ? The Speedster seems to be understiffened for my weight and riding style - that's how I can get relatively tight turns with 14m SC, but feels a bit wobbly at higher speeds.

3. Rounded tail - any disadvantages vs straight cut, except running length ?

4. Have heard "long board which rides like short one" and "short board which runs like long one", and both time is sounded like an advantage. Guess it talks about handling in first case and edge hold on second. Anything here to account for ?

[lowrider]

Since you have mentioned "custom" in your opening statement you have opened the door to a wonderful world of possibilities and access to some great board builders an email or phone call away. Consult with them and let us know if they steer you in the wrong direction (Doubtful but possible). 

[snowcat_az]

Sure, but I would like to understand what the "right direction" is, before talking with the manufacturer. Sort of a second opinion in the front of first one.

[lowrider]

My opinion is the " right direction "would be the one they point you in once you give them your personal information. Where you ride, how you ride, how often you ride, groom or powder ,age, weight fitness level stance and angles etc. 

[SunSurfer]

3 hours ago, sonwcat said:

Would like to improve speed control at steep slopes and edge hold at high speeds.

Both of these qualities are technique dependent but also have equipment dependencies.

Speed control on steeps is achieved

a) by friction e.g. extreme carving body drag, or by deliberate skidding/slarved your turns or

b) by continuing to carve, tightening your turn radius and making a turn with more degrees of arc by turning more across or uphill. To do this needs either a tighter SCR and/or higher edge angulation.

Edge hold at high speeds is better at larger turn radii. Research on line for details about the "ideal carving equation", but the essence is that for any given sidecut radius there is a maximum speed where a clean carve can be achieved. Once that speed is exceeded then the carving groove will break and increasing degrees of skidding and snow spray occur. The smaller the SCR the lower that maximum speed. 

So the 2 qualities you seek are at odds with each other. You will need to compromise, or find a suitable balance point in performance in your discussions with your board builder. 

That said, I have a 2017 Coiler Nirvana Energy Torsion + 174cm, SCR 12-14m, that gives me great speed control on steeps, and feels stable to me at speeds of up to 70km/hr.

I also recently rode a Thirst Superconductor 175? which if I didn't already have my Coiler would have been a Buy Now!!! because it had those same qualities.

It's only in the last 2-3 years my skills have got to the point where I can make really good use of the performance differences in different boards. In my experience good equipment is important, but technique is utterly crucial to both of the qualities you want in your riding.

 

[pauleleven]

All due respect, why would you want to go with either a board too soft or too stiff for you?

Long and short SCR Is hugely dependant on your riding preference: 

Narrow or steep terrain? Want to do aerobic exercise and carve intensely? Go with a SL board, less than 170

Good calm even and wide slopes? Prefer to cruise more? GS board more than 170

Then you'd look at your weight range, which correlates with the length, off the shelf boards the longer the stiffer, take SG:

175 is women GS, 180 is strongwoman or lighter men GS, 185 is stronger men GS, and Ester Ledecka.

If you think your technique is good, you can touch your butt on the heel side, and you have good quads, sure go with a board above your weight range.

Otherwise go with one in your weight range

Do not go below, it won't be able to handle speed as well.

Custom makers are great, cuz they can make it for your weight, but tell them if you have good quads and carve intensely for a stiffer board than just your weight.

Damp race style boards (Kessler Oxess SG and Nobile, from experience) add a lot of anti-vibration material, Oxess and Nobile are experimenting with Ptex layers, that will dampen the wobble you feel, these technology has come quite some way.

Titanal is pretty much known for ice qualities, doesn't make a board stiffer because they shave down the core a bit to have the same flex, if you have ice in the local resort definitely go with a Titanal board.

Longer boards almost always ride like a stable long board, unless: it's badly constructed and is not stable; Technique needs work; Designed with short SCR. But with any of the modern European raceboard, they are more than stable enough even in the SL variation. I will say, however, most people would definitely prefer longer GS boards, because carving GS turns on a SL board relies heavily on the quads, going full tilt with a SL board is also super tiring due to the frequent edge change... GS boards can always ridden into a small radius, just angulate more (and make sure no bootouts)

My 0.02

 

 

 

Also, square cut tails typically have an aluminum bar, which makes the tail more durable over time, that's about the only thing

[Beckmann AG]

7 hours ago, sonwcat said:

Would like to improve speed control at steep slopes and edge hold at high speeds.

 

7 hours ago, sonwcat said:

2. Stiffer board with smaller SC vs softer with larger SC - how to choose ? The Speedster seems to be understiffened for my weight and riding style - that's how I can get relatively tight turns with 14m SC, but feels a bit wobbly at higher speeds.

Maybe post a video of your riding. Technique might be suspect, and 'higher speed' is subject to interpretation. 'Wobbly' suggests you're twisting the board while on edge, etc.

That said, consider that DH, SuperG and GS skis are all (in that order) softer than slalom skis, and also make use of metal laminates.

 

[snowcat_az]

17 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

Speed control on steeps is achieved

a) by friction e.g. extreme carving body drag, or by deliberate skidding/slarved your turns or

b) by continuing to carve, tightening your turn radius and making a turn with more degrees of arc by turning more across or uphill. To do this needs either a tighter SCR and/or higher edge angulation.

No Euro/Extreme carving.

17 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

So the 2 qualities you seek are at odds with each other. You will need to compromise, or find a suitable balance point in performance in your discussions with your board builder. 

Yep. Problem is that having limited experience with different boards and no access to demo gear, I don't even know where on the bell curve I reside, with this Speedster. So wanted to evaluate what others use for similar purpose.

17 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

In my experience good equipment is important, but technique is utterly crucial to both of the qualities you want in your riding.

[snowcat_az]

16 hours ago, pauleleven said:

All due respect, why would you want to go with either a board too soft or too stiff for you?

Not at all. Question is what I win/loose when moving in either direction (stiff+small SC vs soft+large SC). May end up with factory specs as well.

16 hours ago, pauleleven said:

Narrow or steep terrain? Want to do aerobic exercise and carve intensely? Go with a SL board, less than 170

Good calm even and wide slopes? Prefer to cruise more? GS board more than 170

<...>

175 is women GS, 180 is strongwoman or lighter men GS, 185 is stronger men GS, and Ester Ledecka.

Got another Speedster RS Worldcup 185 for green groomers, so GS part is covered.

I _think_, my best bet would be ~173cm 13m sidecut right for my weight (90kg), but strangely in that stiffness range there are only longer RS (which I already have) or shorter SL (too tight SC).

16 hours ago, pauleleven said:

Otherwise go with one in your weight range

Do not go below, it won't be able to handle speed as well.

That's what I'm trying to address. And yes, inclining toward weight-matched stiffness. However, like @SunSurfer  said, SC is also a part of equation - larger-SC-board can be set steeper at high speed without overloading, which may compensate for lack of stability due to softness.

16 hours ago, pauleleven said:

Also, square cut tails typically have an aluminum bar, which makes the tail more durable over time, that's about the only thing

Got it. Will go with rounded then.

Edited February 27, 2019 by sonwcat

[snowcat_az]

14 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

 

Maybe post a video of your riding. Technique might be suspect, and 'higher speed' is subject to interpretation. 'Wobbly' suggests you're twisting the board while on edge, etc.

That said, consider that DH, SuperG and GS skis are all (in that order) softer than slalom skis, and also make use of metal laminates.

 

Was talking about stability on chopped terrain. No issues on corduroy - either clean cut, or instant drop.

Just comparing to RS 185cm ( titanal with rubber dampening), this (fiberglass ?) 177cm one predictably shows more bump response, which I hope to get resolved with newer laminate composition.

Edited February 27, 2019 by sonwcat

[lonbordin]

I would recommend if possible to try a board with Variable Sidecut Radius (VSR).  I find the VSR boards to be more fun and more versatile than single SCR board.  Even a narrow SCR range like 12-14m is more versatile than just 13m.  Also boards with VSRs like 10-12-11 can be really a different ride as well.

[pauleleven]

9 hours ago, sonwcat said:

 

 

9 hours ago, sonwcat said:

That's what I'm trying to address. And yes, inclining toward weight-matched stiffness. However, like @SunSurfer  said, SC is also a part of equation - larger-SC-board can be set steeper at high speed without overloading, which may compensate for lack of stability due to softness.

13 m range is gonna be hard to find an off the shelf board in your weight, I'd say go custom, can even ask for a long board at 180+ with that added stability, while having the smaller sidecut, and have it in your weight.

Edited February 28, 2019 by pauleleven

[snowcat_az]

On 2/27/2019 at 11:46 AM, lonbordin said:

I would recommend if possible to try a board with Variable Sidecut Radius (VSR).  I find the VSR boards to be more fun and more versatile than single SCR board.  Even a narrow SCR range like 12-14m is more versatile than just 13m.  Also boards with VSRs like 10-12-11 can be really a different ride as well.

I've heard both good and bad about VSR, and there is no widely adopted single standard (even distribution differs - tight nose loose tail vs loose nose tight tail). So given that single SC works well for me, and I already have two such boards, I'm going proven way. With 12-15 days on snow per season, don't really have time for experiments or adaptation.

But  I totally see your point.

Edited February 28, 2019 by sonwcat

[pokkis]

Bad about VSR? Any modern carving/race board is not having it, but for sliding sideways on metal pipe it might not be giving best performance.

[snowcat_az]

14 hours ago, pauleleven said:

 

13 m range is gonna be hard to find an off the shelf board in your weight, I'd say go custom, can even ask for a long board at 180+ with that added stability, while having the smaller sidecut, and have it in your weight.

Yep. I think I've found something suitable - Prior WCRM 177 - 13m SC - 60-95kg - titanal.

One up in stiffness, one down in SC, and supposedly much better dampening, compared to Speedster. Guess it'll move me closer to the common setup.

[snowcat_az]

2 minutes ago, pokkis said:

Bad about VSR? Any modern carving/race board is not having it, but for sliding sideways on metal pipe it might not be giving best performance.

Sure. Did I forgot to say I'm doing slides, backwards and up side down too ? So single SC.

[pokkis]

21 minutes ago, sonwcat said:

Yep. I think I've found something suitable - Prior WCRM 177 - 13m SC - 60-95kg - titanal.

One up in stiffness, one down in SC, and supposedly much better dampening, compared to Speedster. Guess it'll move me closer to the common setup.

You sure it is single SCR? i doubt and works up side down too

But certainly you can order any custom board with singel SCR, just call to Bruce

[billyt.]

if you are riding west vs. east, those are things to consider when talking to a builder.  They will put you on the right gear for your style and area.  I bought a used board, AM that is perfect for quick turns and crowded narrow trails here on the east coast.  I wanted to buy a custom board for the same reasons that you spoke about.  it usually turns out to be technique not the equipment.  I did buy a custom Coiler NFCB 178, and it is a pleasure to ride, but also my technique has also improved to ride it.  Good luck

[snowcat_az]

1 hour ago, pokkis said:

You sure it is single SCR?

Positive. Prior has another board called FLC which is exact same specs and composition, except SCR which is 12/14m

https://www.priorsnow.com/collections/custom-snowboards/Mens

choose Alpine

Edited February 28, 2019 by sonwcat

[lonbordin]

6 minutes ago, sonwcat said:

Positive. Prior has another board called FLC which is exact same specs and composition, except SCR which is 12/14m

Prior WCRM are all VSR unless it's really old OR someone had it made custom.  VSR works really well for race boards but it doesn't really complete the turns... wants to run it out.  Great boards though lots of fun.

Edited February 28, 2019 by lonbordin
Edit I know what the specs sheet says...

[snowcat_az]

1 hour ago, billyt. said:

if you are riding west vs. east, those are things to consider when talking to a builder.  They will put you on the right gear for your style and area.  I bought a used board, AM that is perfect for quick turns and crowded narrow trails here on the east coast.  I wanted to buy a custom board for the same reasons that you spoke about.  it usually turns out to be technique not the equipment.  I did buy a custom Coiler NFCB 178, and it is a pleasure to ride, but also my technique has also improved to ride it.  Good luck

Thanks man.

Once again it looks like 175..178 is a sweet spot.

Is your Coiler stiffened up ? What's the SCR ?

2 minutes ago, lonbordin said:

Prior WCRM are all VSR unless it's really old OR someone had it made custom.  VSR works really well for race boards but it doesn't really complete the turns... wants to run it out.  Great boards though lots of fun.

Interesting. Can you please double-check over the link ? FLC says 12/14, WCRM - 13, all current production.

[lonbordin]

18 minutes ago, sonwcat said:

Interesting. Can you please double-check over the link ? FLC says 12/14, WCRM - 13, all current production.

Coilers can be anything you want them to be... it's a great experience working with Bruce.

I think the specs sheet is telling you the average SCR for the WCRM.  My last one definitely was VSR.  The WCRM really comes alive at speed. zooooom.  Not the best slow speed carver but then it's a race board so what would you expect same with Donek REVs and Coiler race boards.

[billyt.]

I am big, 6’3, 250.  My AM board is 172 and my heel side would chatter out at speed and less than perfect snow.  Spoke to Bruce at Coiler about a board for my size and type of riding.  It has a bunch of numbers in the side wall about side cut, not really sure about that stuff.  The board holds with speed and can make tight turns.  Point being, my technique and form improved and I enjoy both boards more than before.  Find what is limiting your enjoyment with your gear?  Yes sometimes there is a time to get on newer or better gear, and it does help, but good form and technique can make old gear work too.

[pauleleven]

20 hours ago, sonwcat said:

Yep. I think I've found something suitable - Prior WCRM 177 - 13m SC - 60-95kg - titanal.

One up in stiffness, one down in SC, and supposedly much better dampening, compared to Speedster. Guess it'll move me closer to the common setup.

See if they could buff up the flex a little bit for your weight, you'd be a little bit on the end of the spectrum. It's a reputable board maker and fits your requirement really well tho.

Another option is to add a vist plate to it, which will buff the flex a bit,  but I would say ride it naked until you are absolutely bending the S*** out of it before going with a plate.

[BlueB]

20 hours ago, lonbordin said:

Coilers can be anything you want them to be... it's a great experience working with Bruce.

I think the specs sheet is telling you the average SCR for the WCRM.  My last one definitely was VSR.  The WCRM really comes alive at speed. zooooom.  Not the best slow speed carver but then it's a race board so what would you expect same with Donek REVs and Coiler race boards.

To the best of my knowledge the WCRM has radial and FLC progressive cut. 

WCRM doesn't ride like Kessler and similar race boards. It's rounder and more predictable turn shape. 

1 hour ago, pauleleven said:

See if they could buff up the flex a little bit for your weight, you'd be a little bit on the end of the spectrum. It's a reputable board maker and fits your requirement really well tho.

Another option is to add a vist plate to it, which will buff the flex a bit,  but I would say ride it naked until you are absolutely bending the S*** out of it before going with a plate.

They'll put a surcharge for flex change and you'll wait longer. Another option would be to go for 21 wide version, it's a tiny bit stiffer then regular one, as Prior doesn't compensate the core thickness on wider models. There shouldn't be a surcharge for it.