Shaun White Perfect 100

[Jack M]

Can't seem to find this on youtube, so here:

All respect to Shaun White of course.  I'm not one of the haters, although the way he treated Kevin Pierce was lame.  Anyway...

Crazy awesome run.  Really beautiful to behold.  However I don't think it was perfect.  During the replay the commentator says about his first jump at 1:08, "there's the 14, stomps it right on that toe edge", except he didn't.  He lands on his heel edge, then slides around to toeside.  1440 is 4 complete rotations.  He takes off with his chest facing up the pipe on his toe edge, and lands facing down the pipe on his heel edge, then slides around on the ground to face up the pipe again.  If you do any number of complete rotations, you will take off and land facing the same way.  So there's no way that jump was a 1440.  Now, I don't know shit about halfpipe judging, maybe if you land facing one way and then do a quick 180 spin on the ground, that counts as part of your air.  I personally wouldn't call it that way because you're not in the air when you do that last half spin, but what do I know.  Thoughts?  Or was the jump planned to be a 1260?  If so then I'd agree it's a perfect run. Do you even have to tell the judges what you're going to do in advance?

[lonbordin]

It was a great run.  But hey pipe is a competition (along with slopestyle and big air) with subjective judges and scoring, it's never going to be perfect.  I think this is why I've always prefered sports (snowboard cross, GS, SL) with measured outcomes. But obviously this makes for better TV as competitions make up the majority of what the US audience gets to see during the olympics with the sprinkling of sport finishes thrown in here and there.

The judges want the USA to have the best possible chance at Olympic gold and Shaun White has one of the best chances to deliver + he has a great run and they see a chance to give him a boost before the Olympics = 100

I think the video is much better with the sound off, IMHO.

[Jack M]

Fair enough.  I just think that an incomplete rotation followed by a quick pivot on the ground is an easy mistake to see.  I see it all the time, it's a pet peeve of mine.  Seems like a "fake it to make it" move.  Maybe it's just not a deduction, but I would think it should be.

[billyt.]

It's all good for the sponsors.  i would love to see a hard carve up one of those walls on a stiffer board to see what type of air they could get?

[BlueB]

4 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

Fair enough.  I just think that an incomplete rotation followed by a quick pivot on the ground is an easy mistake to see.  I see it all the time, it's a pet peeve of mine.  Seems like a "fake it to make it" move.  Maybe it's just not a deduction, but I would think it should be.

Yeah, that one off axis landing is the only glitch I could see... Probably makes it for 99+ score, but still, man, I've never seen anything like this run. 

I don't think you tell anything to judges up front. Also, I wouldn't worry what the commentator says, 1350 is still insane. 

Edited January 19, 2018 by BlueB

[SkoonyMcGroomer]

5 hours ago, lonbordin said:

The judges want the USA to have the best possible chance at Olympic gold and Shaun White has one of the best chances to deliver + he has a great run and they see a chance to give him a boost before the Olympics = 100

I think that this comment is dead-on.  Shaun White didn't even make it to finals in the previous two qualifiers.

[noschoolrider]

On 1/19/2018 at 5:51 AM, Jack Michaud said:

Can't seem to find this on youtube, so here:

All respect to Shaun White of course.  I'm not one of the haters, although the way he treated Kevin Pierce was lame.  Anyway...

Crazy awesome run.  Really beautiful to behold.  However I don't think it was perfect.  During the replay the commentator says about his first jump at 1:08, "there's the 14, stomps it right on that toe edge", except he didn't.  He lands on his heel edge, then slides around to toeside.  1440 is 4 complete rotations.  He takes off with his chest facing up the pipe on his toe edge, and lands facing down the pipe on his heel edge, then slides around on the ground to face up the pipe again.  If you do any number of complete rotations, you will take off and land facing the same way.  So there's no way that jump was a 1440.  Now, I don't know shit about halfpipe judging, maybe if you land facing one way and then do a quick 180 spin on the ground, that counts as part of your air.  I personally wouldn't call it that way because you're not in the air when you do that last half spin, but what do I know.  Thoughts?  Or was the jump planned to be a 1260?  If so then I'd agree it's a perfect run. Do you even have to tell the judges what you're going to do in advance?

That was a crazy awesome run, and it was a 1440 (4 rotations - the rotations are relative to a vertical takeoff position).  No, you do not have to tell the judges what you're going to do in advance.  Some videos show the rider and their coach discussing what tricks to do right before the rider starts their run.

Rotations in the halfpipe are determined in 180 degree increments, and any rotation that results in at least an additional 90 degrees (before landing) will be credited as 180 degrees.  Example: a 270+ in the air will pass as a 360 (see the video of James Foster below), so a 1350+ in the air will pass as a 1440.  This lets the rider maintain more speed and momentum in the pipe - when the rider lands they want to immediately go downward to the next wall at a 30-45 degree angle.

If you watch the video below of James Foster doing a 360 you can see his board touching the snow after he spins about 280 degrees (relative to a vertical takeoff position).  You can also see a white stripe on his front leg (it's just above his knee).  When he lands that white stripe is on his back leg - if the rider goes up the wall heading forward (tip first) then they will land a 360 switch (traveling tail first).

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by noschoolrider
improved the explanation of rotations in the pipe and how the video of James Foster relates to judging what qualifies as a rotation

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think Jack is right, the first trick was 3.5 rotations in the air and another 1/2 as he landed. He went up the wall regular and rode to the next wall goofy. 

[BlueB]

5 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

I think Jack is right, the first trick was 3.5 rotations in the air and another 1/2 as he landed. He went up the wall regular and rode to the next wall goofy. 

I think close to 3.75 rotations... 

[noschoolrider]

Neil and Jack, I posted two images below (captured from the video Jack posted) that might change your minds.

It seems that BuleB focused on the same part of the video I did, and he probably knows it needs to be at least 3.75 rotations for the judges to score it as a 1440.  Rotations in the pipe are determined in 180 degree increments, and any rotation that results in at least an additional 90 degrees (before landing) will be credited as 180 degrees.  Even though the replay of Shaun's 1440 did not look like 4 complete rotations (in the air) the judges obviously felt he completed the trick.

If you focus on the replay (that starts around 1:08) then you will get the wrong impression - that part of the video is from a bad angle (and too far) upslope on the other side of the pipe, so you can't accurately determine where Shaun's board is when it touches the snow.  Instead, try to focus on the video at 23-24 seconds - this is where I captured the images.

In the first image below (captured at approximately 23 seconds) you can see Shaun is re-entering the pipe and he has completed at least 3.5 rotations.  In the second image below (captured at approximately 24 seconds) you can see Shaun is beyond 3.75 rotations (1350 degrees) and his board still has not touched the snow.  The red arrow I placed in the second image shows Shaun's direction of rotation, and the distance between the lip of the pipe and the point of the arrow indicates he has rotated at least 1360 degrees.

[Jack M]

No way that was 4 complete rotations in the air. Nope. Sorry. 

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

He 'shuffled' that rotation, but, given the 'slidey' factor built into freestyle boards (No/little camber, beveled bases), it's hard NOT to unleash to torque of a multi-spin any other way, well, other than an Edge-snag-Splat! The Quick 90, was done in the 'Tranny' zone, no yet on the flat bottom (but not on the Wall, either!), and, WITHOUT AN EDGE CATCH, completed the Spin. Delicate Ground, stuff I Addressed 20 yrs. Ago in the 'Results' of ISF's Judge's Compliation, but, now it is Canon, per FIS. He Landed It. That's their bottom line. I still give this run a 99.9. No other flaws, if this even IS ONE.

 

[noschoolrider]

3 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

No way that was 4 complete rotations in the air. Nope. Sorry. 

No need to say "sorry".  That's not what I was trying to change your mind about.

It's about your following two comments,
1. "I don't know shit about halfpipe judging, maybe if you land facing one way and then do a quick 180 spin on the ground, that counts as part of your air"
2. "Or was the jump planned to be a 1260? If so then I'd agree it's a perfect run"
and, Neil's comment regarding, "I think Jack is right, the first trick was 3.5 rotations in the air and another 1/2 as he landed"

Just trying to provide basic halfpipe education so you guys could know why experts (judges, coaches, competitors and announcers) consider it to be a completed 1440 on a run that received a perfect score.

[noschoolrider]

55 minutes ago, Eric Brammer aka PSR said:

He 'shuffled' that rotation, but, given the 'slidey' factor built into freestyle boards (No/little camber, beveled bases), it's hard NOT to unleash to torque of a multi-spin any other way, well, other than an Edge-snag-Splat! The Quick 90, was done in the 'Tranny' zone, no yet on the flat bottom (but not on the Wall, either!), and, WITHOUT AN EDGE CATCH, completed the Spin. Delicate Ground, stuff I Addressed 20 yrs. Ago in the 'Results' of ISF's Judge's Compliation, but, now it is Canon, per FIS. He Landed It. That's their bottom line. I still give this run a 99.9. No other flaws, if this even IS ONE.

Yes, yes, yes

[Jack M]

On 1/20/2018 at 11:05 PM, noschoolrider said:

Just trying to provide basic halfpipe education so you guys could know why experts (judges, coaches, competitors and announcers) consider it to be a completed 1440 on a run that received a perfect score.

Fair enough, thanks.  Seems imperfect to me, but I am technical like that.  No way a figure skater would get credited for completing a quad like this.  I cannot believe I just referenced figure skating.

[Carvin' Marvin]

Yeah he definitely enjoys preferential treatment......just like the Patriots last night ? 

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

10 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

Fair enough, thanks.  Seems imperfect to me, but I am technical like that.  No way a figure skater would get credited for completing a quad like this.  I cannot believe I just referenced figure skating.

Funny, That, Jack!! One of the MOST PARTICULAR JUDGES I ever Worked with was Claude Robbins, herself a Judge of Ice-Skating/Ice Dancing! See, that, and having an Architect/Statistician Head Judge, with Suzi Rueck as Director, kinda made MY FOCUS on the 'moment', NOT ON THE ATHLETE. Thus, I feel, to this Day, that the Judging we provided was FAR BETTER, MORE IMPARTIAL, AND QUITE COMPLETE in the Green Mountain Series than most any other provided by the USASA/ISF. Mike Chantry even noted our competence, and, hell, we used His 'Trick Descriptions' in Our Manuals, with notes on 'Innovations' as they Showed Up, mid-Contest. So, THAT's THE BASIS, but, b4 it got Politically Corrupted by the FIS/USSA into the crap that-sucks-in-Money-For-Scores system that's involved now; even the Core System for Judging has survived. I QUIT, because the POLITICS were CONTROLLING the Event, not THE PERFORMANCES! I Stand by my abstinence, knowing that even My Loud Voice would've been drowned out by Lawyers in Court.. But, at least, I've 5 Olympian Snowboarders whom I've Coached, so far.

 

[Beckmann AG]

11 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

I cannot believe I just referenced figure skating.

Here you go:

"Richard got married to a figure skater. And he bought her a dishwasher and a coffee percolator." -JM

 

Do you remember when figure skaters actually had to skate 'school figures' in competition? I do.

Feel any better now?

[big mario]

19 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

 I cannot believe I just referenced figure skating.

I have noticed your posts and your stances on argumentative subjects have gotten a lot softer and more sensitive in the last 6 months or so......

mario

[Jack M]

10 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

Here you go:

"Richard got married to a figure skater. And he bought her a dishwasher and a coffee percolator." -JM

 

Do you remember when figure skaters actually had to skate 'school figures' in competition? I do.

Feel any better now?

Much respect for Joni Mitchell, but she is before my time.  I vaguely remember school figures I think.  Mostly what pops into my head when I think of figure skating is Katarina Witt, and, unfortunately, Scott Hamilton seemingly having an orgasm every time someone does a triple lutz triple toe.

Interesting section in Mitchell's Wikipedia page:

Despite her prominence among the young musicians of the 1960s and 1970s, and her writing of "Woodstock" (where she was prevented from performing because her manager thought it was more advantageous to appear on The Dick Cavett Show[77]), she did not align herself with the era's protest movements or its cultural manifestations. She has said that the parents of the boomers were unhappy, and "out of it came this liberated, spoiled, selfish generation into the costume ball of free love, free sex, free music, free, free, free, free we're so free. And Woodstock was the culmination of it." But "I was not a part of that," she explained in an interview. "I was not a part of the anti-war movement, either. I played in Fort Bragg. I went the Bob Hope route because I had uncles who died in the war, and I thought it was a shame to blame the boys who were drafted." Even Bob Dylan, one of the most iconic musicians of the Baby Boom generation, has not escaped Mitchell's generational critique: "I like a lot of Bob's songs. Musically he's not very gifted."

[Jack M]

12 hours ago, Carvin' Marvin said:

Yeah he definitely enjoys preferential treatment......just like the Patriots last night ? 

No, the young Jaguars simply need to learn how to play football cleanly, and without deliberately injuring star players they can't compete with.

[Allee]

14 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

Do you remember when figure skaters actually had to skate 'school figures' in competition? I do.

Feel any better now?

Man, I remember doing them. On rollerskates, not ice skates, and they were harder than they look.

[Neil Gendzwill]

6 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

Interesting section in Mitchell's Wikipedia page:

She's brilliant but not particularly a nice person.  She spent her formative years here in Saskatoon but only has disparaging comments for the city now.

She is recognized for her song-writing and singing but one thing most people don't know is that she is a unique and gifted guitar player. She uses unusual tunings, nearly a different tuning each song.  She had polio when she was younger which affected her fingers.

[Jack M]

12 hours ago, big mario said:

I have noticed your posts and your stances on argumentative subjects have gotten a lot softer and more sensitive in the last 6 months or so......

mario

My dad was an English major and ski racer at Middlebury.  He regaled me with the tale of his professor who would dock you a full letter grade for each misspelling, among other things.  He would review my papers in high school and college.  He told me never to write "I think" or "In my opinion" or anything like that because that much is implied by the fact that you are writing it. While this is logically true, I've realized people don't read that way. Oh well.

[Carvin' Marvin]

11 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

No, the young Jaguars simply need to learn how to play football cleanly, and without deliberately injuring star players they can't compete with.

Sounds exactly like something a Patriots fan would say. Jags didn't play a perfect game but the Pats definitely had more than one penalty that whole game.  As impressive as their dynasty has been, a lot of the fun has been taken out for the casual fan when one team sneaks away with it all more often than not. Just like Alabama and CFB. What was this thread about again?

side edit: the Jags coaches must not have watched the game film from last years super bowl. Running it up the middle on first down the entire second half isn't the best way to beat the Pats when you're up. I specially when that worked the first half and Patricia adjusts. Not saying the Jags deserved the win but there were some dubious calls, and it's getting old. 

Edited January 24, 2018 by Carvin' Marvin