More foot pain--help me find relief

[AJCdice]

After 10+ years in my old Raichle 325's/Catek WC2SI, mid last year, I switched to some Deeluxe Free 69's (same boot, same mondo)/F2 titanium SI.  Even though I have a really short, wide foot, my old thermoflexes always took care of it without boot mods, allowing me to run a smaller shell.  This time around, I got the 151 Palau wide thermoflex liner which is a dedicatedly wide liner and had them custom fit/cooked.   Standing in the boots in the house or at the base, there is plenty of room in the boot--I can put them on with little effort.  However, after just a run or two, the widest outer parts of my feet feel like they are about to be snapped off, like breaking the edge of a cookie.  I can tolerate it to a degree and it gets easier as the day or night wears on, but I don't get it.   

I think the other factor is canting.  It should be noted that I am slightly bowlegged.  With my old Cateks (the best adjustment possibilities ever), I usually canted inward on both, with big toe and heel lift respectively and felt good.  I switched to the F2's for a softer ride as I get older and for less board wear (Bruce almost wouldn't build me a board if I was going to ride it in the Cateks).  People have also talked me out of inwardly canting as a bowlegger, so now I am flat cant-wise, with a small amount of heel and toe lift.  I usually run 60/55 or so.  Boards are 2016 Coiler metal AMT165, 2004 Madd 170.  

Love both boards, but need to sort out these boot/binding issues.  Any thoughts on a remedy with the current setup?

AC

 

 

[billyt.]

Sorry to hear about that.  If it is just the foot pain, I would try the old liners in your new shells to see if that helps?  Did you have the Palau liners fitted by a boot fitter?  If so I would go back to him to let him know that something is not right.  Boot might need some room where the pressure point is?  Good luck with it.

[Beckmann AG]

1 hour ago, AJCdice said:

the other factor is canting.  It should be noted that I am slightly bowlegged.  With my old Cateks (the best adjustment possibilities ever), I usually canted inward on both, with big toe and heel lift respectively and felt good.  People have also talked me out of inwardly canting as a bowlegger, so now I am flat cant-wise, with a small amount of heel and toe lift.

You've answered your own question.

Go back to your old bindings at their previous cant/lift settings for a few days and see if the problem goes away. If that changes things for the better, find more informed sources for your binding advice, and then find a way to get the same cant numbers on the F2.

[AJCdice]

Thanks Erik.  Unfortunately, I yard sale'd the old gear here last year.  I will start by inward canting again even though it seems counterintuitive and keep tinkering.

ac

[Beckmann AG]

Oops.

Maybe find a nice old set of Catek WC/OS1, and get back to what works. You can borrow a set if you wander on up to Outpost 31.

FWIW, inward canting is generally more effective for the bowlegged, while outward canting more appropriate for the knock-kneed. 

 

 

[Corey]

9 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

FWIW, inward canting is generally more effective for the bowlegged, while outward canting more appropriate for the knock-kneed. 

I'm intrigued; how does that work?  Seems counter-intuitive.  

[AJCdice]

8 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

 

FWIW, inward canting is generally more effective for the bowlegged, while outward canting more appropriate for the knock-kneed. 

I also believe this may be true despite the accepted wisdom by most as the opposite. We will see this weekend.

 

 

 

[Beckmann AG]

21 minutes ago, AJCdice said:

FWIW, inward canting is generally more effective for the bowlegged, while outward canting more appropriate for the knock-kneed. 

I also believe this may be true despite the accepted wisdom by most as the opposite. We will see this weekend.

In the wintersport industry, 'accepted wisdom' is quite often a loose assemblage of tribal knowledge.

You have to go with what works for your body toward a particular outcome.

[Beckmann AG]

25 minutes ago, Corey said:

 how does that work?

How does it not?

[Corey]

54 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

How does it not?

If your lower legs are tilted towards each other, it seems odd to tilt the feet in the outward direction.  And vice-versa.  

:shrug: Just seems weird.  I'm picturing the Vitruvian man with outward cant with his legs in the spread position.  

[billyt.]

1 hour ago, Beckmann AG said:

You can borrow a set if you wander on up to Outpost 31

Is that close to area 51?

[Beckmann AG]

2 hours ago, billyt. said:

Is that close to area 51?

Only if Nevada is close to Maine or Antarctica.

[Beckmann AG]

2 hours ago, Corey said:

If your lower legs are tilted towards each other, it seems odd to tilt the feet in the outward direction.  And vice-versa.  

:shrug: Just seems weird.  I'm picturing the Vitruvian man with outward cant with his legs in the spread position.  

It's not weird if you take a closer look at skeletal structure. 

Consider why the legs would be tilted. Conformational issues with the feet generally cause rotation of a leg when that leg is under load. So if a foot collapses medially on account of a mobile first metatarsal, the knee will rotate inward by way of the hip until all the 'slack' is removed from the system.

Similarly, the bowlegged often have feet with greater mobility to the lateral side, and this may lead to the knee swinging to the outside under load. 

In each case, range of motion vital to 'athletic' movement is lost at the ankle, and the mass of the torso is predisposed to rotate in one direction or other depending on which foot is weighted. Proper foot support and canting can restore much of the lost integrity to the columns of support, to ensure the athlete stands in a 'neutral'  and agile relationship to the platform. 

Rather than constantly adapting to platform behavior caused by collapsing skeletal structure and the attendant compensatory muscle tension.

Using Vitruvian man as a reference point or means of validation for snowboard binding setup is understandable, but overly simplistic and inherently flawed.

[Rob Stevens]

^ Do you see issues with this, where putting a rider in an "optimal" position to be centred, causes pain issues as they may have never been centred before?

 I'm thinking of young riders who are adaptable vs. older ones who may need to be left in their comprimised postion, as taking them out of it creates a new, potentially uncomfortable range of motion.

 Is that where the above discussion comes in? If someone is bow legged for example, do you try to counter that by canting inward, effectively neutrally balancing them, or do you cant outward as needed to maintain the bowleggedness?

 As long as you have a screwdriver, you can always test for comfort.

 What I don't know are the boot dynamics of your boot... I know in soft boots that if you are structurally predisposed to being knock kneed or bow legged at the ankle, the boots will allow this, as they don't force a straight line from the sole of your foot to the knee. Hardboots often have that lateral motion as an adjustment, but it might not be that effective if it only works at 90 degrees to the long length of the boot. In any event, it's another variable you could mess with.

[Beckmann AG]

3 hours ago, Rob Stevens said:

Do you see issues with this, where putting a rider in an "optimal" position to be centred, causes pain issues as they may have never been centred before?

 I'm thinking of young riders who are adaptable vs. older ones who may need to be left in their comprimised postion, as taking them out of it creates a new, potentially uncomfortable range of motion.

 

No issues come to mind. Pain/discomfort, etc isn't ignored in favor of geometry.  

In other words, if it hurts, it's wrong. 

Historically, 'alignment' systems have used geometry and specific posture as endpoints. Doing so only works for a relatively small subset of athletes. The rest gain perceptual change at best, and at worst, pain, frustration, and a sense of failure as an athlete.

The greater issue with older athletes, is overcoming a long history of doing things in an overly complex manner to overcome previous obstacles; then having to diligently identify and eliminate all of the superfluous movements after establishing a 'better' relationship to the platform.

Worth noting that much of this stuff is iterative, in that you can't simply change everything at once; and some parameters need to be revisited/reverified after a time.

3 hours ago, Rob Stevens said:

  If someone is bow legged for example, do you try to counter that by canting inward, effectively neutrally balancing them, or do you cant outward as needed to maintain the bowleggedness?

Can't speak for other operators, but I'd aim for the situation that worked best for the body and the intended outcome, rather than outward appearance.  The old, 'objective v subjective':

 

[Rob Stevens]

20 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

Pain/discomfort, etc isn't ignored in favor of geometry.  

 

 

That's my point, I suppose. 

Depending on who you're talking to, the end "look" is sometimes favoured over comfort. 

Like "Don't worry about it... It won't feel good now, but you'll get used to it". 

 

[darko714]

Did you try going to a bootfitter?  I had the same sort of extreme pain with Deeluxe Suzukas: not bad standing around but intolerable after a few runs.  Turns out my feet were too wide for the shell, and there was enough thickness for the bootfitter to ream them out with a moto-tool.   It provided immediate relief.

[AJCdice]

Thanks Darko.  Revised canting helped, but I may need to shave plastic.

 

[Jack M]

On 1/18/2018 at 9:02 AM, Corey said:

I'm intrigued; how does that work?  Seems counter-intuitive.  

Maybe this isn't the main or right reason, but I think of Beckman's explanation as bringing the knees into a better position.  So if you are bow-legged you cant inward to bring the knees closer together.  If you are knock-kneed then you cant outward to move the knees apart.

@AJCdice, did you mold your new liners while sitting down?  I made that mistake once and felt similar pain as you describe.  Gotta stand while molding so your foot is squashed out wider like it will be while riding.  Other than that, I agree you need to get back to your previous setup, or as close as possible, see if the pain goes away, and then change one thing at a time from there, if you even need to.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Jack Michaud

[lowrider]

The thing i find interesting about this discussion is that there seems to be two distinct thoughts as  to how others think one addresses some one else's posture. From a medical perspective the idea seems to promote correction. From another perspective it is more to accommodate.  Around our table the other day were a doctor a board builder, racer, boot, board and binding seller  and some very proficient riders . Not much was agreed upon but everyone left the table more open minded than before. The nugget i came away with was that no matter what you did as far as lift and or cant you didn't  want to impose a change of position that would leave your leg pressuring any part of the boot cuff since that would in turn force you boot against various points of your foot. Front foot lift should put you in the stance you are comfortable with that allows you to balance in a neutral position on the board. The heel lift compensates for the fact your feet are no longer parallel and your legs are spread apart (stance width ). Carpet carving is essential to get all these working in harmony. Foot beds help prevent one toes from being jammed into the end of your boot when your foot is compressed on impact. ( they keep your arch from flattening out ) I don't necessarily endorse Jack's view but if it works i wouldn't argue. The important point is does it work for you ? If what your doing now isn't working than you have nothing to loose  by trying it .

[Jack M]

57 minutes ago, lowrider said:

I don't necessarily endorse Jack's view

I actually don't really have a view on this, and I've edited my post to more clearly say what I was trying to.  Fortunately I am not bow legged or knock kneed, so I don't have to think about this much.  It does seem that inward canting for a bow-legged rider would result in pressure against the boot cuff, and that might be undesirable.

[AJCdice]

3 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

 

@AJCdice, did you mold your new liners while sitting down?  I made that mistake once and felt similar pain as you describe.  Gotta stand while molding so your foot is squashed out wider like it will be while riding.  Other than that, I agree you need to get back to your previous setup, or as close as possible, see if the pain goes away, and then change one thing at a time from there, if you even need to.

Thanks for responding Jack.  I was standing up--it was a professional setup at Boston Ski and Tennis--I didn't do a kitchen oven job.  I had extra material in the extreme places and good caps.  My feet are so damn wide compounded by what I believe are bone spurs at the outer widest part of my foot just rear of where my little toe begins.  I think I really need to try grinding out material from the shell and then remolding liners one more time (like I have money and time for that in between work, family, etc...).  Canting inwards helped a bit, but it is beyond that, I realized this weekend on the slopes.  

[queequeg]

On 1/18/2018 at 6:02 AM, Corey said:

I'm intrigued; how does that work?  Seems counter-intuitive.  

Agreed. I am bow-legged and I use outward (lateral) canting (particularly at higher stance angles); this is very comfortable for me.

Edited January 29, 2018 by queequeg

[Jack M]

48 minutes ago, AJCdice said:

I think I really need to try grinding out material from the shell and then remolding liners one more time

I would recommend shell stretching before permanently compromising the integrity of the shell by grinding.  I had a shop do this for more width in my UPZs, it made all the difference.

[AJCdice]

yep--will try that first.