Wide soft-boot boards

[slopestar]

So I have been lucky enough to become the caretaker of a very cool 164 Donek Incline. 29.5 cm waist with a 9/11vsr. Ryan Knapton rode it for a week or more with this review:

i have since been in it for about 6 runs in total. Here is a quick snippet from my first day on it:

the feel is wild for sure. Soooo wide means leveraging the edge can be tricky. So much that I have avoided riding it very much.

I'm curious on thoughts and ideas in regard to width and the fact that I have felt like there "was no high back" on heel side turns. 

(On the same point but a separate note, I ride flow bindings and love them for their near hard boot feel and leverage. I found these cute little fractures in my high backs on this board that lead me to believe that someone needs to build me a better set of bindings! Fin? Anybody?)

anyway, open discussion in regard would be cool. Would love to hear your take too Ryan! 

Taking her for a spin with Nidecker Carbon900's tomorrow. 

 

[Jack M]

Nice SB carving.  I'm loving my custom wide Winterstick ST 166 with 27.5cm waist (same as an old K2 Fat Bob), 10.5m radius.  I have size 10.5 Burton Driver X boots, I ride it at 30/15 and don't boot out.  29.5cm sounds pretty wide.  My next softboot bindings will be Now O-Drives.  I tried them, very responsive.

[scottishsurfer]

I got a SG soul 159xt which is a 275mm waist as somewhat of a stepping stone board to make sure i would be capable of getting something wider than the 265mm width boards i had been riding edge to edge. For me i dont find it any harder maybe a little tad slower but nothing to split hairs over but i have let a few friends who are instructors have a go both the level(CASI) 2 instructors really struggled to get the board up on edge only the level3(BASI) instructor actually looked comfortable and was eager to take it for a few more runs.  I do think with wider boards the bindings need to be perfectly centered interms of the heel toe of your boot and in addition to this you need a very strong edge change. I have nerve damage in my legs from an injury as kid which means i lack alot of feeling in my lower body to get around this my movements on the board are much more pronounced and aggressive than the need to be but i do think it helps me alot to power the board edge to edge as a result.

bindings wise i use rome targa's there super adjustable so you can properly dial in the heel/toe positioning. I've never tried flow bindings but i did run a pair of metal chassis SP(GNU/VOlKl) bindings which are fairly similar in concept i found the were ok but the lack of solid heel cup caused the chassis to flex pretty badly though i have heard flows are better in this respect. I think my next bindings i get will probably be Flux XF/XV im guessing there must be some sort of logical reason as to why just about every japanese and korean softboot carver uses them...

I'm hoping my next board will probably be something similar to your flux slopestar though getting a custom donek is a bit like kid in the sweet shop in terms of what to get.

[slopestar]

I'm digging my fullbag diamond blade. Also 26.5 wide. My saber is 24.8, power plates/flow nx2gt prototypes with my size 9 boots. I'm looking forward to trying the incline with bindings that aren't broken but I could see getting a 168 26w 10-12vsr saber/flux "candy Store" model from Sean for next season

[scottishsurfer]

The biggest thing for me with getting a custom from Sean at some point other than the width will be flex as i prefer boards to have a fairly stiff nose and tail that I can project weight forward onto entering a turn then load up the rear on the exit. The SG nose to me is a bit softer than i would like its really the only thing about the board that i would change.

[slopestar]

My saber is amazing... I feel like I can overturn it a little and the narrower waist leaves me with a fat Carve instead of a fine line like I'm really bending and plowing the Carve at the apex of the turn. I love it but if you don't go down the rabbit hole, you will never know what really works for you. The incline carves a bit better(fine line) I jumped on it because it had the same radius as my saber. Predicatable starting place... with out buying a custom. Sorry Sean, I've had the Kool aid. I'll be back for more. Seems that this is the season, I'm wearing out gear.....

[scottishsurfer]

Slopestar did you just sell the incline on the snowboard trader facebook page? Just seen one sell there that looks identical to yours in terms of specs plus top sheet/base

[sic t 2]

Well, my first head long dive into the WIDE SOFT BOOT BOARD started at the beginning of the 2016/2017 with the attached board (A-Frame 159 Wide).  I purchased it solely because of input from Ryan Knapton's videos and the bomber thread that was active at that time on this subject.  That W-frame has a 266mm waist.  Prior to that I usually rode a waist width around 250 (give or take 4 cm).   I'm a size 9 burton drifter boot and 180 lbs. at 21/9.

Overall I consider it a pretty big mistake.  Its still a great board but I so wish I had gotten the normal width A-frame at least.

Issues:

#1.  The extra weight (specifically the effect of unsprung weight on rough terrain).  If you begin a blast through a mogul field the extra weight (which is no issue whatsoever for carving) quickly overwhelms you.  First hit; the board comes at you and it takes great effort push her back to the snow for the 2nd hit, 3rd hit you barely get it back to the snow, 4th hit you are in trouble, 5th hit you take in a squatted position,,,,, if you have no bailed out of the field by now.  If you race motorcycles you know what the effect is (its called "packing", and always always made worse by the % of unsprung weight).  And if you board with high level skiers all the time (I certainly do) you face the above described terrain often.  I think the main problem with a non-custom wide is that the entire board is constructed more robustly (HEAVY). 

#2.  The old fashion A-frame camber, yup, you heard that.  Give me reverse camber between my legs and camber at tip and tail (And not the Rossie xavier delerue bends).  The full camber makes the A-Frame very responsive edge to edge and that makes for great shallow carving too.  But when pushed really hard I always feel that camber begins to resist the arc and creates unwanted tip and tail pressures and hinders high g-load carves.  It also creates excessive tip pressure that makes it crash into rough terrain rather than absorb it.  Highly controversial point, I understand, but that is just how I feel about it.  And boy, maybe not camber related, but boy did I EVER  have a  "fold the nose" flipping crash on this board !!!   S.O.B, my knee is still hurting and that was last year !  

#3.  The extra width was not a benefit to me.  But I  must say that the wide width is kind of a cool feeling when standing up real high on edge.  And, yes, if the snow is shaved concrete, it is harder to pick her up off the "floor".  Like lifting a single sheet of 4x8 plywood off the garage floor :).  I can deal with the energy but  I was certainly stressing my bindings to their max.  And, of oourse, with the 4x8 plywood effect comes the ever increasing "strap-ins" to deal with that effect (on ,my insteps, CRUSH CRUSH).  Bottom line, if you are not booting out now,  don't expect any tangible benefits from a wide board.  Pretty obvious point,  but I guess, but we all fantasize about edge pressure and leverage (and then let our better judgement slip at when it comes time to pick out next years board).

Anyway, back to normal width boards.  And back to reverse Camber.  

[slopestar]

So I took her out for one more day. 5” of heavy new. Changed out my broken Beloved flows to nidecker carbon 900’s. First of all, I’m Flow for life. I can’t ride strap bindings. They hurt, are less responsive, just plain horrible for ME. Great bindings though. They are available for sale. I discovered the same things said recently. I prefer a skinnier board. I think my Fullbag Diamond Blade at 26.5 is great for my size 9 feet and 220lb frame. I’m saving my pennies for my next hybrid saber that will be about 25.5-26.2 at the waist. I sent the incline on to a freestyler in WA State. I hope he likes it.

[Jack M]

20 minutes ago, slopestar said:

26.5 is great for my size 9 feet

26.5 sounds about right to me for size 9.  This is sensitive stuff - I love my 27.5 wide board, hated a 28.

[scottishsurfer]

Makes sense I'm a UK 11 which equates to a  us size 12 so I imagine I'll top out at higher waist width than you guys will do so.

[slopestar]

I think these boards have their place especially for big feet...I did love the floatation but feeling the bottom and trying to confidently navigate the bumps underneath was tough. Ryan uses a three strap “lazy boy” high back that I’m sure helps with control and leverage. Then again, some guys can rip on a 2x4

Edited January 9, 2018 by slopestar

[Rob Stevens]

Jack sold me a board last season that I was nervous to try. It's a Donek Sasquatch, at least 29 wide, full camber and a 170. I thought it would handle me. 

Surprisingly, it's been a real beauty to ride. I don't notice the extra width until I'm laid out on a heelside. Carving turns is amazing, plus it gets after freeride terrain in ways I didn't expect. I'm only a 9.5 boot, but with 28 and -3 angles, the overhang struggle is real. 

Now that I have this board, it's giving me ideas for a custom... another cm in the tail, 2 in the nose, decambered up front with the wide point moved back a touch. I'd also see what my other options are for construction, as when I ask Melissa to load the Sasquatch in the roof box, she can't lift it over her head. 

[Jack M]

Wow, really glad you are enjoying that thing Rob.  I thought it was 28 wide but I could be wrong.  That was my brother-in-law's board.  He is 6'2" with size 12 boots.  He was coming from a K2 Fat Bob 164, 27.5cm wide.  He was also coming from two ruptured Achilles, and he only gets about 10 days a year.  Although I thought the Sasquatch was sized well for him on paper, it proved to be just too much for him.  I tried it with my size 10.5 boots one day and thought it was an unmanageable plank.  You must be a savage to be able to tame that thing with size 9.5s. #impressed

[Rob Stevens]

Correction... 28 wide. 

Sick bord Jack. Thanks for passing it on to me. 

[crackaddict]

On 1/9/2018 at 6:35 PM, Jack Michaud said:

 You must be a savage to be able to tame that thing 

True dat!  Witnessed Rob riding that thing yesterday at NES, just ripping up the steep hardpack, dragging his butt with a duck stance!  Savage for sure.  We're gonna set him up on a Coiler in Revestoke on Monday and watch the magic happen.

Back to the main thrust of this thread, I ride a custom Donek Sabre SRT Twin 165 with a 12m sidecut and 31cm wide waist.  Yes, it's a beast but it rails hard with no boot out.  The cord here is often quite soft and deep, and on those soft days I'm glad to have that extra width.  Driver X size 10, 15/30 degrees.   IMHO, appropriate waist width should be determined not only by your foot size, but also by the type of snow you ride and your carving style.  I like to push really hard in my turns and make big boards turn tight.  I also like to straighten out my legs whenever possible which causes more boot out than a lower, bent knees position (but looks and feels cooler). 

Bottom line: don't be afraid to go wide if boot out is a problem for you.  A lot of intermediate carvers can get away with a slight boot overhang on firm snow, but if you're a ripper and ride soft cord, don't be afraid to go 30cm or more at the waist.  Sure, it's a bit more work to transition edge to edge, but once you get going it's less noticeable and you can push as hard as you like without fear of the dreaded boot out. 

On the flip side, a 30cm plus waist is not an all mountain board, it's a dedicated soft boot carver.  Floats on pow for sure, but there's just so much surface area there that the impact from landing jump turns or hitting buried moguls is intense.  Not recommended on inconsistent snow, but sooo fun when there's a few inches over groom.  

 

[Rob Stevens]

Such a great day with you Bud. 

An inspirational day all around, to be honest. It's probably been 20 years since I've seen 20 good alpine riders all on the mountain at one time. 

Looking forward to the demo... I think I'll be deep in the weeds, but stoked to give it a go again. 

[Mig]

On 09/01/2018 at 11:41 AM, slopestar said:

I think these boards have their place especially for big feet...I did love the floatation but feeling the bottom and trying to confidently navigate the bumps underneath was tough. Ryan uses a three strap “lazy boy” high back that I’m sure helps with control and leverage. Then again, some guys can rip on a 2x4

Where can we see his binding setup?

[scottishsurfer]

i don't think hes shown them yet

Out of curiosity what is the camber profile like on the donek incline,flux and saber as there website doesnt give any info regarding this?

[slopestar]

Camber

[slopestar]

3 hours ago, Mig said:

Where can we see his binding setup?

Burton cartel/malativa with a third strap and pipe insulation with gorilla tape and a folgers coffee can... it works, he throws down!  Loved the video BTW Mig! Playful carving epitomizes resort riding which is what 99% of us do 99% of the time. Hoping that snowboarding in general stops embracing the stink bug carving style. The laid out toesides with weak heelsides. The Koreans and Japanese riders really know carving style. 

Edited January 15, 2018 by slopestar

[scottishsurfer]

13 hours ago, slopestar said:

Camber

I kind of guessed that but is it pure camber or is there some rocker towards the nose? For example SG soul has alot camber pretty much from the very tail of the board to well forward of the front inserts then it goes to a bit of rocker about 20-25cm from the nose.

i jokingly took this picture when a friend asked how cambered it was the, answer being about £2.50 worth of change

Edited January 15, 2018 by scottishsurfer

[slopestar]

I don’t know what Donek can do with those profiles. I’m assuming whatever you want. My saber is pure camber. And having not ridden it this past weekend, I miss it. I was on my coiler NFCE 22.5 waist 174 and it has a bit of decamber in the nose, nothing like some of the sg’s ive owned. I’m looking forward to my next build(hopefully in time for spring riding) 168ish wolf in sheeps clothing. 

[scottishsurfer]

The fact that there so custom probably means there isn't really a standard profile i guess hence they don't list them on the site :) Unlikely to be until the summer that'll ill get the money together to put an order in for one.

[bigwavedave]

16 hours ago, scottishsurfer said:

Out of curiosity what is the camber profile like on the donek incline,flux and saber as there website doesnt give any info regarding this?

I can only speak to the Incines:

I have two Inclines, a 2001 and a custom one built for me a couple of years ago. The old one has the standard fixed upturned nose and tail that all boards had back then with a full camber between. The new Incline has a more shallow upturn in the nose and tail with a subtle decamber at both ends, a little more in the nose. This was the "new standard" flex profile for the Incline. I can feel how the new flex profile carves a smoother line with less resistance. The old upturned nose profile plows a fatter line through the snow.