Intuition PowerWrap+ vs Intuition SBC

[queequeg]

Has anyone compared the Intuition SBC liner vs the Intuition PowerWrap+ (aka: dalbello gold). As I understand it: the PowerWrap+ is intuitions highest-volume liner, and the SBC is a medium-volume liner. That said, it seems like the SBC has extra volume in the calf area? What I'm wondering is how much of a difference there is going to be around the ankle and forefoot? If nobody knows I'll post my results here. I suspect I'm going to to with the PowerWrap+ as It seems like it will keep my foot more stable? Obviously I'll be transferring my footbeds. My hope is that I will be able to return one of the liners without molding them, but perhaps I'll just need to try them both to really know. My gut says that if the powerWrap+ is tall enough for the boot, to just go with it and return the SBC?

I just got a new pair of UPZ's to replace my ~2010 RC-10's, which were downsized at MP26 (and seriously deteriorating after ~7 years of putting up with my abuse). My natural boot size is MP28, and after 7 or so years of dealing with the constant bootfitting adjustments required, and pain of a super high-performace fit I've decided to give a normal boot-size a go. Kind of incredible to be able to slip my feet into a pair of boots so easily, but I am concerned that there may be a bit too much room in the foot area? The boot is nearly wide enough (I think the forefoot will still need a 6th-toe punch) but being able to wiggle my toes with the stock liner (if ever so slightly) has me worried that I will not be happy with the performance of the more comfortable fit. Part of me thinks that I am just so accustomed to having a race fit, that I am freaking out about what is probably a totally normal/comfortable fit.

Edited February 14, 2017 by queequeg

[Jack M]

My foot measures 28.5cm, so I got the UPZ 28s.  I had to have one of the boots punched out for 6th toe width.  The stock liners would squirm around in the boot slightly, so I replaced with Intuition PowerWrap.  I'm happy.  I know I couldn't tolerate the PowerWrap+.  I'm loving the performance, I get no heel lift at all, which wasn't an issue with the stock liners either, but the new liners improved the overall performance of the boot significantly.  I think you'll be just fine.

[queequeg]

1 hour ago, Jack Michaud said:

My foot measures 28.5cm, so I got the UPZ 28s.  I had to have one of the boots punched out for 6th toe width.  The stock liners would squirm around in the boot slightly, so I replaced with Intuition PowerWrap.  I'm happy.  I know I couldn't tolerate the PowerWrap+.  I'm loving the performance, I get no heel lift at all, which wasn't an issue with the stock liners either, but the new liners improved the overall performance of the boot significantly.  I think you'll be just fine.

Thanks jack, this is useful info. My feet measure 28.5 too, were you able to wiggle toes pretty freely in the stock liner? I find I can get the heel on the rear foot to lift in the stock liner too - do you recall if you were able to do that? ...  sounds like maybe you were? Obvs the stock liner is junk, but I'm just trying to figure out what my volume situation is compared with an average 28mo foot. 

Edit - re-read your post and found you already answered my question. Seems like you might have a somewhat higher-volume foot than me so I might try the gold liner after all.

Edited February 14, 2017 by queequeg

[Jack M]

I don't think I got heel lift in the stock liner.  Just the squirm, and the boots felt softer overall with the stock liner, and not in a good way.  I was able to wiggle toes a little in the stock liner.

[avante]

queequeg, my 2 cents... 

PowerWrap series is constructed with a very firm foam. From my point of view it is a very uncomfortable stiffness, say good for racing and absolutely not doable for the whole day riding.

If you have any doubts on what liner to choose, just email Rob from Intuition. They have lots of expertise and are generally able to assist on such matters.

Another thing is you might want to give stock FLO liners a try. I use them for 4 seasons already. Heel pocket (with supplied plastic teeth inserts installed) and overall flex feel good.

 

How come we did not meet on ATC? =\

[Jack M]

Seems to me that the PowerWrap is the original Raichle Thermoflex.  Been using some form of liner of this stiffness for over 20 years.  Love em.

A buddy uses the stock UPZ ("FLO") liner with success but he has more of a race fit. With my "natural fit" M28 boots for my 28.5cm feet, they squirm.  They do seem like a quality stock liner though.

[Pokolikrat]

PowerWrap si extremly firm. It did my Heads non rideable and went to garbage can after a couple days. I just did not work for me. Be careful about asking people at Intuition  about help with snowboard boots. I did it last year and they recommended liner which was too short for UPZ. In the end I got their Classic RD, but even that one is not like old pink Raichle thermoliner. I put in in my Dynafits and currently have Full Tilt Plush in UPZ. 

[crote123]

I have SBC swap liners in my UPZ RC-10 (MP26).  I purchased them 2 years ago when my Head's Stratos Pro liner were well beyond their life expectancy.

I bought RC-10s this season and tried them as is  As I like to set my front boot very stiff, it became obvious that the liner was not capable of providing that fit without any pain.  So, I've decided to try SBC Wrap liners.  I went to a local bootfitter, who also rides alpine boards so he knows all the different snowboard boots, to get the boots fitted.

I've only had one day riding on it and I'm not entirely sold on them with the RC10's but I'll give them a few more days of riding before I decide what to do next.  My bootfitter has a couple ideas (including modifying UPZ's liner) as it seems we have the same issues (but he rides Deeluxe).  Note that I have fairly large calves for my size so that's an issue that needs taken care of.

In any case, check out the specs for both liners as the SBC Wrap is a fairly tall liner.

From Intuition website:

SBC Wrap

Specs: Wrap Style Liner, Medium Volume, Extra Tall Design, Cuff and Ankle Reinforcement, 2mm Stroble Sole, 7mm Shims Included, Anti-Microbial Lining Treatment

Dimensions: Height (cm): 33-36cm, Weight (grams): 508-756g

PowerWrap Plus

Specs:  Wrap Style Liner, Cuff and Ankle Reinforcement, 9mm Sole, Anti-Microbial Lining Treatment

Dimensions: Height (cm): 27-32cm, Weight (grams): 326-526g

Hers's a picture of one of my boot with the SBC Wrap..  You may (or not) be keen on the extra height.  Next time' I'll probably put on a Booster strap to reduce freeplay at the top of the liner and give me more rebound too.

 

[1xsculler]

3 hours ago, Ladia said:

PowerWrap si extremly firm. It did my Heads non rideable and went to garbage can after a couple days. I just did not work for me. Be careful about asking people at Intuition  about help with snowboard boots. I did it last year and they recommended liner which was too short for UPZ. In the end I got their Classic RD, but even that one is not like old pink Raichle thermoliner. I put in in my Dynafits and currently have Full Tilt Plush in UPZ. 

I'm not sure what liner I have but it's probably a Full Tilt Plush Intuition too, size 11/29 which I use in my size 28, 325s and RC10s for my 28.2cm feet..  I remolded the toes only for my rear foot using a heat gun before riding yesterday and it seemed to help.  I used a modified Deeluxe toe cap and 1/4" thick, fairly dense foam between my big and second toe and the next toe to create some room.

[queequeg]

Hey everyone, thanks so much for all of your useful and informative replies! To my mind: I'm keen on the extra height of the SBC liner but am not convinced that it will have enough volume in the ankle area to really hold me down (narrow/bony ankles). I am not too concerned about the powerwrap+ being too stiff or high volume because: I'm coming from a race-fit with my previous boots being two sizes too small and I like my boots pretty stiff. 

With regards to the flow liner, I know some people get away with them but: I think a thermo/wrap works better in this boot - particularly given that its a 3-piece/tongue boot.

Otherwise: the heel lift I notice with the stock liners is not my heel lifting in the liner but rather: the liner sliding somewhat in the boot (is this what you mean by squirm Jack?). I think that's a product of the fact that the FLO liner has lots of smooth firm surfaces on the outside that slide too easily against the boot plastics ... and I suspect it wasn't really designed expressly for this boot? I can crank down the buckles to stop the liner from lifting but I like having blood in my feet and a thermo would make that unnecessary.

my gut says the powerwrap+ is going to win the day, given that I am coming from a crazy-tight race fit, but at the end of the day: no way to really tell without molding them both? The more I think of it, the more it makes sense to mold both and observe the differences, and sell the less-appropriate version online at a fair used price. Will post my findings here!

[1xsculler]

 

It seems like the Palau 141 liner is similar in stiffness and thickness to an Intuition Power Wrap and the Deeluxe Thermoflex 131 liner is more similar, but maybe not quite as thick, to what I think are my Full Tilt Intuition Plush liners. 

Edited February 15, 2017 by 1xsculler
mistake

[GeoffV]

Jose, I'll be curious how this experiment works for you. What was your measured mondo size? Are you new RC-10's a Mondo 27 or did you go to a 28?

I am in a race fit T700 mondo 27. My measured mondo size is 28, I am using the dalbello gold, the stock T700 Thermo liners are a lot thick and took up more volume in the boot and did work for me. I downsized because of heel lift in my rear boot. Going down a size, solved my heel lift but introduced a new problem. My current issue and has been since I down sized from a 28 to a 27 is snow shooting in my front boot. I really pressure the boot cuff a lot and flex the tongue so much that it creates enough of an opening to have snow come in on my heelside turns. The only way to keep the snow out is a boot glove. I am considering UPZ and will track @Jack Michaud on and probably make a decision later in the season.

[queequeg]

Hi @GeoffV - I measure a 28.5 and was previously in a 26. It was a ton of work wedging my feet into those tiny boots but the performance I got from the fit was incredible ... but the pain/inconvenience was also a factor. I considered a 27 but as I inderstand it ... the next (actual) shell-size up from a 26 was a 28, and since I'm 28.5 that seemed like an ok choice. 

My understanding is that the UPZ's have comparatively excellent heel hold-down, though I don't have any experience with the T700s. I expect @Jack Michaud is probably a great source of information on that particular topic!

Snow in your boot?? Thats a new one!! I figure you've tried covering the opening with a thick neoprene pad or something like that??? Wowsers.

I'll definitely post my findings. I'm a little worried things may be too loose but we shall see!

Edited February 15, 2017 by queequeg

[GeoffV]

2 hours ago, queequeg said:

Snow in your boot?? Thats a new one!! I figure you've tried covering the opening with a thick neoprene pad or something like that??? Wowsers.

 

Yes I tried neoprene under the tongue, but because the shell moves the neoprene would shift. It was also to thick and would create an ever bigger opening. 

[jl1]

4 hours ago, GeoffV said:

Yes I tried neoprene under the tongue, but because the shell moves the neoprene would shift. It was also to thick and would create an ever bigger opening. 

Hey Geoff-It is Joe who sent you the vouchers-Just an FYI-I have RC-10's and have the same problem with snow coming in under the tongue-used to have Raichle's and the snow just filled every void in them-I have tried a few different things with no luck yet-It is not as bad as the old boots but after a full day of riding in the perfect snow I can dump an ounce or two of water out of my shell .I may have to try the boot glove  

[GeoffV]

Hey Joe, thanks for the vouchers, they will be used next weekend :0) I get a lot of heat from my riding buddies on my boot glove, I only use it on my front foot, but it work. I raced on Monday tried no boot glove and instead tightened up my boots super tight. I pulled my liner out and had snow wrapped around the side and back.

[Bobby Buggs]

Jose, if there are any near you dont skip on the Zipfit liners. I was out again today in mine and love them. You can actually try them in your boot before you buy them. I could probably make an entire couch out of All the liners I went through in the last 17 years. I didnt believe in the whole ZipFit design when I saw them a couple years ago and wasted over $1000 on other liners. Its surprising they have not caught on here yet.

[queequeg]

31 minutes ago, Bobby Buggs said:

Jose, if there are any near you dont skip on the Zipfit liners. I was out again today in mine and love them. You can actually try them in your boot before you buy them. I could probably make an entire couch out of All the liners I went through in the last 17 years. I didnt believe in the whole ZipFit design when I saw them a couple years ago and wasted over $1000 on other liners. Its surprising they have not caught on here yet.

Thanks Bobby - I've considered zip fits in the past, I'd prolly give them a shot but so far I've had pretty great luck with intuition/dalbello liners :)

[queequeg]

Ok so far so good with the SBC liner. With footbeds and two 7mm shims beneath the footbed there is enough volume to keep everything from moving. The Powerwrap+ hasn't arrived yet, but if the SBC works out I might try in in my malamutes, which could use a bit more support.

it seems like these UPZs are made of a softer plastic though ... which is annoying, since they are less stiff than the older ones I had. I may take a look at using the powerwrap+'s to see if they will make things a bit stiffer. Nonethess the SBC seems like a great liner.

I used John's boiling water method to mould them. Worked like a charm. I was going to try a sous-vide element but it was too thick to fit in the boot and allow good flow at the same time.

Edited February 19, 2017 by queequeg

[queequeg]

Received the Powerwrap+ liners tonight. They do take up a bit more volume, and are definitely stiffer I think I am going to mold them and see how I like them and decide. Without molding they feel ok and there is no need to add any shims underneath since the sole is a bit thicker. Perfect height for the UPZ boot. It would seem like they do add some stiffness, which is welcome.

Update — after molding the PowerWrap+ I think I am going to be much happier with them. I got a really firm solid fit from them with no give whatsoever. Toes are still free to wiggle but the rest of the foot is locked down. I've got four days in the mountains coming up so we shall see how I feel after a day of making turns but I am feeling pretty optimistic. Comparing the outside of the SBC and the PowerWrap+, the PW+ took a better impression of the shell than the SBC, which only took a faint impression of the shell; which seems to indicate that the SBC didn't have quite enough volume for my foot in this boot. Both seem like pretty good liners but the PW+ is the better choice for me. I have a feeling I would have packed out the SBC pretty quickly.

Added some photos for comparison, both liners compared after molding. One note about the SBC is the cuff angle. The volume around the lower calf is about the same between the two, but the PW+ has way more volume in the lower part, where I need to fill in space around my dainty/bony ankles. Hope this stuff is useful to somebody in the future!

Edited February 24, 2017 by queequeg

[GeoffV]

I just got fitted yesterday at Happy Tunes at Sugarloaf with the PowerWrap in UPZ's. I'll take then in this Saturday for my first run every  on UPZ. I will be swapping out the tongues with a medium flex and if needed the stiffest tongue, the stock tongue is way to soft for me. The PowerWrap+ would have taken up to much volume for me because I have a high instep. 

[queequeg]

2 hours ago, GeoffV said:

I just got fitted yesterday at Happy Tunes at Sugarloaf with the PowerWrap in UPZ's. I'll take then in this Saturday for my first run every  on UPZ. I will be swapping out the tongues with a medium flex and if needed the stiffest tongue, the stock tongue is way to soft for me. The PowerWrap+ would have taken up to much volume for me because I have a high instep. 

I think I'm in the stiffest tongue and it feels good for carpet carving with the new boots, will find out this weekend. Will still be OK if it stiffens up a bit with the cold, hoping it all works out.

[1xsculler]

Am I correct in saying that the PowerWrap+ is pretty similar to the Palau 141?

[mauihardbooter]

Aloha Queequeg from the great white north. I'm following this thread because I'm re-doing my boots right now as well.  There is a lot of great product out there but it's not a one size fits all world. So your re-tweaking your boots, it goes with the territory.  Feet change, liners pack out unevenly, shells can go soft or get stiff. Up here it's the land of Intuition. Some facts first: 1)  The foam is the same in all Intuition liners. 2) most intuition liners come in a choice of low , med , or high volume. Exceptions are, Race (low only) Godiva (med) and Classic (med). Not to be sexist in any way. but women's specific models have more volume in the heal / calf area if you need it. Toe room can be filled by getting a liner one size longer, the shaping process will snug up your toes. Personally  if I can't wiggle my toes my feet get cold, that's not where I want my boots snug.  Intuition offers 20+ options ifyou count the different volumes .  Boot fitting shops seldom stock more than a few, the sell what they have, it's business.  Avante suggested you contact Rob at Intuition.   Rob knows his product but Tom is Intuition's custom boot fitter. E-Mail him at intuition with specific questions.  By design the power wrap will stiffen the boot. If more stiff is not what you need, a tongue design like the Luxury might be better for you. My Raichle 325's came with a  tongue design liner, my Deelux came with a wrap. The boots are almost the same, the difference is the stiffness of the plastic, hence the liner design change.  The best way way to fit or re-fit intuition liners is with the hot rice trick. Details at Intuitions web site. All you need is 5 lbs of white rice, a microwave, and a nylon sock.  A kit is available with a toe cap for people like me who want toe room, You can re-fit up to 10 times, even from one boot to another. Final thought, you need some flex some where between your feet and your edge, where you put it is up to you. Wishing you happy feet