An introduction to Northwave hardboots

[WinterGold]

I have been interested in this topic for many years.

I find it interesting how little information there is available about the Northwave boots.

 

And it is funny how people speculate about why they are so glorified.

There was even a rumor of an 850 model, just because of a typing mistake. And guys started looking for those ;-)!

 

Here is a short introduction to the world of Northwave hardboots.

Every model is described in there.

 

I hope you guys like it!

If you have any questions, don´t hesitate to post them here.

 

And leave some comments! :-)

 

http://tomasio.at/temp/NorthwaveIntroductionV1.0.pdf

 

Ride hard,

WinterGold

Edited January 8, 2018 by WinterGold
New link

[piciu]

good read ;)

 

97/98 & 98/99 and that's it for .950???

[snowboardfast]

I can't understand why they destroyed the molds for the boots? You could sell the rights of manufacture and the molds to some one else  if you wanted to. Burton sold the rights to the race plate and they are still produced as IBEX. The Brunswick snurfer is available again.  I would think that Norhwave would be selling boots today if they would have kept making them? Thank you for the info that you found as I did not know about these boots when they were being made. They must have been sold in Europe only and only to high level racers? Isn't northwave still going as I have a pair of Bicycle shoes from them. Norhtwave Airflow, nice shoes.

Edited May 2, 2016 by snowboardfast

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

Boot mold costs are the usual excuse for 'no new models', so, yeah, that's odd. I'd guess a skier-in-charge decided the heel couldn't be made to DIN standards, or the Softboot guy decided 'enough' from within the company. Either way, it means that someone now has to take a pair of Northwaves, cut them in half lengthwise, laser-scan the boot halves, and then load up a 3-D print from the scan. Then, the 'reverse engineered' boot can be made from the original. 

 

The 'stiff' nylon-reinforced' plastic, 45* ankle strap, and nice overlap construction was why I posted up Dodge Boots here... Those guys have the production system that could bring those features to a new snowboard boot. Oh, and, of course, the heelside/forward-lean springs, and correctly placed ankle hinge.

Hopefully, tech will bring us something better than what exists. Not that I think current boots are 'obsolete', but it is the one feature that hasn't been drastically re-engineered in the last twenty years in Hardboot Snowboarding. Stagnation, in a progressive sport, is not encouraging...

Edited May 2, 2016 by Eric Brammer aka PSR

[RoroSnow]

Nice find and some good history info.

Thanks Wintergold ! 

[queequeg]

Thanks for writing this up! Super cool!

[danger]

Great Article!

Thanks for sharing!

[Beckmann AG]

Can you provide an accurate measure (in degrees) of the bootboard?

[WinterGold]

I can't follow you.

What is the bootboard?

[Aracan]

I think Beckmann wants to know the ramp angle, i.e. the angle between a horizontal surface under the boot and the plane on which the foot rests.

Like this:

 

[WinterGold]

That is a bit tricky ... Do you know this kind of stuff for your own boots? How do you measure it exactly???

 

For the Northwaves - the Point series (and also the older models, but differently) has a wedge under the liner inside the shell. Assuming that this wedge is lying flat in the boots (which seems to be the case), we can "just" measure the wedge. This is also not very accurate, because the wedge isn´t formed in straight lines. But on average (like the sketch of Aracan) I would say that the wedge has about 8,5 degrees of slope.

 

I hope that answers your question. If not, please let me know.

 

 

[Beckmann AG]

Thanks. That's what I was looking for, and yes, I do know what the measure is in my own boots down to the 10th of a degree.

If memory serves, I'm at 5.5 on the front boot, and 6.7 on the back boot.

[WinterGold]

Can you tell me how you measured this? What boots are they?

[Beckmann AG]

http://mdbuildingproducts.com/product/120-cm-smarttool-digital-level-mmm-wcarrying-case/

 

I ride a modified Lange WC 150. The zepper is a hard foam wedge similar in execution to the NW.

[slapos]

you can also use iphone degree meter ? 

[WinterGold]

It is an interesting topic!

 

With a wedge it is not so difficult, but measuring the shell on the inside is not that easy and the plane on which the liner rests, is not really flat. So it is even more difficult to measure.

And what about your ordinary shoes for everyday use? They also have a certain slope, don´t they?

And the different insoles inside the liner! 

Tricky stuff!!!

[Beckmann AG]

It is an interesting topic!

 

 

measuring the shell on the inside is not that easy and the plane on which the liner rests, is not really flat. So it is even more difficult to measure.

 

 

And what about your ordinary shoes for everyday use? They also have a certain slope, don´t they?

 

And the different insoles inside the liner! 

Tricky stuff!!!

 

 

 

indeed it is, and one worthy of pursuit. Much of what one sees in alpine skiing, with regard to forward/backward postural issues, are directly related to bootboard ramp, heel height on the binding, and forward lean of the boot cuff. Similar things take place in hardboot snowboarding, but the overlapping variables of cant/lift etc make resolution a more involved process.

 

The DeeLuxe bootboard is molded integral to the shell, with a bump in the middle to reflect arch support. With some interpolation, they measure out somewhere between 10 and 12.5 degrees. That's excessive, and one possible reason why the N-Wave has such a following.

Particularly when one considers that the average athlete, once 'in range', will respond to changes of tenths.

 

For almost every load-bearing activity, (and individual skeletal conformation) there is an optimal heel height. Tuning takes a bit of time, but it's not that difficult once you know what to look for in terms of feedback. 

 

Depending on the product and/or process, custom insoles may or may not have additional height added under the heel. I don't add anything to those I fabricate, but to the casual observer, it looks like there's a wedge under there.

[philw]

... The DeeLuxe bootboard is molded integral to the shell, with a bump in the middle to reflect arch support. With some interpolation, they measure out somewhere between 10 and 12.5 degrees. That's excessive, and one possible reason why the N-Wave has such a following.

...

 

I certainly found that I needed to switch around back heel/ front toe lift when swapping boot type, and I would assume that the reason is the built in slope, as the lean of boots is something adjustable within the boot, but this is not.

 

Translation:

 - because different design boots hold your foot at a different angle relative to the board, you may find that toe/ heel lift in the bindings is necessary in order to adjust this angle to your preference.

[Beckmann AG]

^On average, the Most Wretched Tecnica Icon had a heel height that was at least 3/8" 'too high' for the average skier.

Or at least the ones I was dealing with at the time. 

Never bothered to measure in degrees, but that discrepancy is insane.

[Jack M]

Thanks WinterGold for the interesting read.  I can't fathom why dearly expensive capital equipment like boot molds would be destroyed.  The mind boggles.  Unless it was an accident, like how the original Madd tooling was destroyed by fire/flood/locusts/etc.  How sad that these cherished pieces of gear seem to be lost forever.

 

Vic Wild winning double gold on 15 year old boots, ridiculous.

 

 

 

 

The DeeLuxe bootboard is molded integral to the shell, with a bump in the middle to reflect arch support. With some interpolation, they measure out somewhere between 10 and 12.5 degrees. That's excessive, and one possible reason why the N-Wave has such a following.

 

 

 

With the Northwave heel ledge under the rider's heel, I'd be surprised if they had less ramp angle than Deeluxe.  You can see how this puts the heel higher than necessary just from pictures.  UPZ is similar.  I can't imagine it does squat to reduce drag.

[WinterGold]

Jack, it´s been a while ... 

 

You know what is crazy? They gave the molds to a recycling shop for a few bucks ...

 

So many World Cup riders still use them and most of the rest wants them  ...

 

I guess, it won´t be long now before somebody reproduces them ... 

[Beckmann AG]

 I can't fathom why dearly expensive capital equipment like boot molds would be destroyed.  The mind boggles.  Unless it was an accident, like how the original Madd tooling was destroyed by fire/flood/locusts/etc.  How sad that these cherished pieces of gear seem to be lost forever.

 

 

With the Northwave heel ledge under the rider's heel, I'd be surprised if they had less ramp angle than Deeluxe.  You can see how this puts the heel higher than necessary just from pictures.  UPZ is similar. 

 

 

I'd suspect asset reduction. Surplus equipment/materials are, I think, considered as part of taxable value.  If assets aren't being used as a means of adding to the bottom line, they become liabilities and need to go, so as not to detract from that bottom line.

 

Used to see all manner of usable high end manufacturing equipment in the local scrapyard, some of which had never been used, 'new on pallet'.

Walked out one day with a perfectly good Bridgeport head, and 10 hp 3ph electric motor, both @ .20/lb.

 

 

Appearances aside, I suspect the NW has a lower ramp, which is why I asked for confirmation.

 

Regardless, the need to accommodate the step-in heel module creates excessive ramp in both the UPZ and DeeLuxe.

 

As to using old boots, when a top athlete finds something that really works for their unique physical circumstances, the risk of failure due to equipment/body/technique mismatch far outweighs the risk of boot failure.

 

Some boots simply 'work', while others don't, regardless of bells and whistles. Apparently the NW is one of the former.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Beckmann AG

[philw]

I guess, it won´t be long now before somebody reproduces them ...

 

...It can't be that hard. They probably didn't even use computer aided systems to design those, just trial and error. I would assume you would not reproduce them: we have learned some stuff in the last 30 years. The time has to be coming when you can significantly surpass them.
 

 

There's a huge variety of (mostly useless) soft boots. Presumably that's because they are made largely by hand in sewing shops staffed by people working in cheap parts of the world. Their tooling costs are probably negligible, hence the huge variety and suitability for a fashion business. The best hard boot people is change the colour every so often.

 

It seems unlikely that there's not a better way to make hard shell boots at lower volumes. It's just a bit of structure and a bit of three dimensional design. Moulded "plastic" is one approach, but it has this big low volume market problem, so we should maybe look at other approaches. The important thing is that the boot is stiff, not that it's made from Tupperware. Someone posted a link to Carbon Fibre ski boots the other day, for example. I wonder how much investment it would take...

Edited May 22, 2016 by philw

[Aracan]

I know very little about those methods. But I seem to recall that while the tooling costs for carbon fibre are significantly lower compared to plastic, the cost per piece (for materials and work) goes up like there is no tomorrow. Perfect for low-volume production where cost is not that big an issue - say high-performance auto parts. Snowboard hardboots are already not exactly cheap. For carbon, I would not be surprised if they cost at least twice as much as now.

[Jack M]

The best hard boot people is change the colour every so often.

The red Deeluxe T700s were stiffer than the older white ones. The new T425 is an all new boot, sitting above the T700 in the lineup.