Noob Questions

[st_lupo]

Hi all,

After having a really fun first-season of carving on a snowboard, I'm looking at ways of cross-training for next season. Reading this forum it seems that there is some cross-over benefit to be had from longboarding so I've ordered a Loaded Vanguard complete which is in the mail.  I'm not entirely sure what I've gotten myself into yet, but I've been reading the forums to get an idea on how to start out. 

 

What is the best way to start riding a longboard, that will provide benefits for alpine snowboarding?  Here I'm thinking mainly ranges of motion and balance, but if there is some strength training benefit that's great too.  From what I've read, it seems that carving and long distance pumping are what I should focus on?

 

Does anybody stand on a longboard using a stance similar to a carving snowboard setup; high angles on both front and back feet?

 

Is it possible to ride long distance pumping and still look a bit graceful?  This isn't meant to sound insulting but after having seen a youtube video with a guy called Vlad Popov showing different pumping techniques, I'm hoping maybe that he's exaggerating the motions to really highlight the techniques?  The acceleration and speed that he attains is really amazing, but I've probably got a bit of a threshold to get over before I feel comfortable doing all of that in public?

 

How is it best to fall, given I'll have helmet, elbow pads, knee pads and wrist protectors?  Everyone says don't land on your wrists (learned that pretty well from snowboarding), but is there any preferred way to fall that takes advantage of all of the pads?

 

I've been reading the forums here and the tech articles at silverfishlongboarding.com and pavedwave.com.  Any other good resources?

 

Anything I definitely shouldn't try on the Vanguard?

 

Thanks!

[st_lupo]

Eegaad, this is a lot harder than I imagined!  So far I've been ejected from the board twice for accidently kicking my back trucks while pushing uphill and numerous times for starting backside turns that I can't recover from.  Think I might have to order a spare set of wrist guards at this rate.

[slopestar]

LDP and long boarding are great fun. Not sure what your setup is exactly. LDP is setup like a slalom skateboard but on a longer, typically drop decked board. Bushings and trucks are the key elements. Getting the right combination can take time. My LDP setup uses a tracker RTS rear truck and a Bennett 5.0 front. Both trucks bases are canted towards the nose heavily with 3" hardware. The back truck is for traction and the front truck is like the drive that propels it. Rebound from proper bushings up front for me is key. I'm sure more people here have more knowledge than I do. Trial and error and lots of skinned knees. I use at least knee pads and a helmet when I LDP.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think you need to walk before you run.  The Vanguard is pumpable but you'll need to get comfy just riding it with less aggressive inputs first.

 

As far as stance goes, I use much lower angles for pumping than for snowboarding.  You can use more forward angles if you like, back in the day some people used to use side-by-side stance like a skier but I don't know if they got much pump out of that.

 

The basic idea behind pumping is that it's like ice-skating or roller-skating with only one skate.  You want to be pressuring the board when it is on its way from the centre-line to the outside of the turn, then sucking it back through from the outside of the turn back through the centreline.  In snowboarding terms, it's a series of cross-under turns where the pressure is released halfway through each turn.

[Corey]

You can get pretty technical with changing parts to optimize LDP performance if that's your thing. I take a stock Loaded Vanguard and pump around sidewalks or quiet roads for fun. I haven't ventured down the road of modifications yet, and probably won't ever as I only spend an hour or so a week on a board.

Assuming you're new to skateboarding: Learn to skateboard first, just pushing with your foot. This may be a little tricky with the flex of the Loaded board. Then lean/turn and get a feel for it. Then try pumping after you're comfortable with all that.

I pump differently based on speed. When moving quickly I pump like Neil describes above, pushing and pulling the board laterally underneath me. When going slow or stopped, I use more of a twisting action where I tilt the board to turn the trucks, then push one foot forward and one foot back, then tip the board the other way and do the opposite. You can actually start out from a dead stop on flat ground and get up to whatever speed you'd like.

[st_lupo]

Thanks for the help!  

 

As far a board setup, it's not a drop-trough.  The truck are Paris 180mm, with red bushings (are they of a standardized color coding?) and 80a Orangatang InHeat wheels.

 

The LDP technique descriptions are hopefully helping me get a better picture of what I need to be doing for that but...  You are both entirely right: I need to learn to walk before running.  I see that I've been entirely over optimistic about my ability and in how challenging longboarding is going to be. 

 

I've just finished day 2 on the board and I think that I'm going to have to forget about the LDP thing for now and just get comfortable with the basic techniques so I've got some more questions that are probably more applicable to what I'm able to do right now.

 

1: How much of snowboard carving carries over to longboard carving? Tonight I've just been focusing on trying to control my speed by turning more.  I've had various degrees of success.  Specifically:

• I've been trying to do the angulation-->inclination to turn the longboard with pretty erratic results. Sometimes if the speed gets up it seems that I can't initiate a turn what-so-ever.  Any attempt at leaning into a turn gets washed out as the radial acceleration just pushes me out again.  I can get the board to turn with my ankles but then it feels like the board is just going to turn out from underneath me.  
• Counter rotation: is this as evil on a longboard as it is on a snowboard?  I absolutely, positively cannot get my upper body to follow the longboard through the turn.  It's a lot like the hyper-chihuahua turning I was going through on my first days on a hardboot snowboard.  When I've got a "good" groove going, my upperbody pretty much faces the fall-line and I've got the longboard swiveling around below me, and my arms swinging around trying to keep me balanced 

2: It seems there must be a lot of technique to be learned in just controlling the torsional flex of the board?  If I turn mainly with my front foot the response feels a bit more controllable, but slightly less maneuverable, whereas if I really get my back foot into the action the board really seems to "slash" through the turn, I'm I reading this right?  Is it generally advisable to steer more with the front foot when going faster (is it more stable)?

 

3: How much does one tend to crouch when riding?  Do you try to get a lower cg or do folks ride more relaxed?

 

4: For just carving (no sliding) what kind of weight distribution am I looking for?  I sometime catch my weight going rearward on my turns but it seems pretty easy to keep in check if I anticipate it.  Do I want a 50/50 distribution through turns (not ldp yet). 

 

5: I've got the wrist/elbow/knee pads and a helmet on, but I can tell that I'm being a lot more timid on the longboard than I am when trying new stuff on the snowboard.  Am I being overcautious, or even with padding are skating injuries more severe than snowboarding?

 

This is fun stuff though, even if the neighbors laugh and shake their heads.

 

Thanks for any more help!

[Neil Gendzwill]

Snowboarding and skateboarding are related but different sports.  There is way more ankle involvement skateboarding, which is why IMO steep stances don't work so well skating.  If you start out trying to replicate snowboarding body positions on a skateboard, I think you will fall a lot.

 

And yes, the penalty for failure on a skateboard is way more severe.  Learn to control your speed through foot drags, it will save your bacon.  Remember if you get going faster than you can physically run, bailing is going to result in a crash.

[lordmetroland]

Remember if you get going faster than you can physically run, bailing is going to result in a crash.

 

If you doubt Mr. Gendzwill's supposition and decide to test it for yourself, please don't forget to have someone manning the video camera. That's some straight up Wile E. Coyote s*** there. On that topic though, my sliding needs a lot of work this summer!

[Corey]

I also learned I can't run sideways nearly as fast as forwards. Lots of tangled legs.

[ExcelsiorTheFathead]

I always wear everything. A helmet, elbow pads, knee pads, and gloves. I have been run off the trail by bicyclists, flown through the air because of wheelbite, and bailed because of huge cracks in the pavement. I am very uncomfortable with high speeds on a downhill grade. If I think I am going too fast, I will run off the board before things get out of control. One of my favorite pumping trails had an elevation drop of 300 feet over five miles. It was very enjoyable and easy to control speed.

[lordmetroland]

The truck are Paris 180mm, with red bushings (are they of a standardized color coding?) and 80a Orangatang InHeat wheels.

 

I'm no expert - certainly not on the LDP topic - but I've spent enough money to know what works for me. I like Paris quite a lot as an all-around truck (though I've bent several hangers doing dumb tricks). I suspect you'll want to graduate to something more "fit-for-purpose" once you get comfy with the pumping technique. For now, the stock red bushings are quality (maybe Venom?) and just fine for learning. You may find yourself wanting to play around with shapes and hardnesses to "tune" the ride, but I warn you that the arcana associated with bushings is enough to make your head swim. It's as if there's a Nobel Prize for Bushingomics some of these guys are striving for. Experimentation may be more helpful than reading too much.

 

In my experience, those InHeats are a very nice, high traction wheel so you can push pretty hard in a turn without fear of having the board slide out from under you. So you don't have to be too cautious.

 

5: I've got the wrist/elbow/knee pads and a helmet on, but I can tell that I'm being a lot more timid on the longboard than I am when trying new stuff on the snowboard.  Am I being overcautious, or even with padding are skating injuries more severe than snowboarding?

 

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but my worst injuries haven't been to the hard, pointy bits, but to the soft exposed skin that seems to always lose in a friction battle with pavement. So maybe a bit of caution is indeed in order.

 

...flown through the air because of wheelbite...

 

The most insidious of longboarding issues. Make sure those big diameter wheels have sufficient clearance from the deck when the trucks are fully turned. If not, the snowboarding equivalent is burying the nose. And then landing on a pile of thumb tacks.

 

I take a stock Loaded Vanguard and pump around sidewalks or quiet roads for fun.

 

I'd be interested to hear what some serious LDPers have to say about the Vanguard for pumping. I love Loaded boards, but always thought a springier board might not transfer as much energy to a pumped turn as something a bit stiffer. Thoughts?

[ExcelsiorTheFathead]

I've pumped a stock Vanguard before. It is pumpable but doesn't compare to a purpose designed pumping set up. The Vanguard improved after I swapped on the larger wheels from my pumping board and put in some different bushings. A vanguard deck with the common Bennett and tracker trucks setup would be pretty good and wouldn't suffer from wheel bite.

[ExcelsiorTheFathead]

What is the best way to start riding a longboard, that will provide benefits for alpine snowboarding? Here I'm thinking mainly ranges of motion and balance, but if there is some strength training benefit that's great too. From what I've read, it seems that carving and long distance pumping are what I should focus on?

Is it possible to ride long distance pumping and still look a bit graceful?

When I am pumping for speed on a flat surface, I'm pretty sure that I look like a ridiculous maniac. I think that the technique is similar to using a hula hoop. it is necessary to find the right groove in order to get propulsion. Pumping doesn't feel at all like big turn snowboard carving. it is more like doing short turn slalom at a very fast pace.

[slopestar]

I tend to ride more surfy. Here is a quick clip. I did push to get going... But I can pump way faster and more efficiently than pushing. Downhill on my ldp does not work... Smooth asphalt over glassy concrete is the best surface

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tuNHez_YwKc

[Corey]

I found this randomly today. I start with method 1 to get rolling and do a hybrid of 1 and 2:

[st_lupo]

And yes, the penalty for failure on a skateboard is way more severe.  Learn to control your speed through foot drags, it will save your bacon.  Remember if you get going faster than you can physically run, bailing is going to result in a crash.

 Why are things like this so obvious only in hind-site?!?

 

Seriously thanks for all of the help!  I'm guessing from Corey's last video that counter-rotating is something I need to beat down pretty quick if I want to progress to trying LDP.  I did have a couple of toe-side turns the other night where I tried rotating like method 1 above and I felt something.  My big problem is that at the end of that one "pump" I am so out of balance that I loose the momentum when trying to recover.

[Neil Gendzwill]

 Why are things like this so obvious only in hind-site?!?

Stepping off at mach schnell the first step or two seems survivable and then it turns into "oh shit" in a hurry.  I have accumulated the road rash to verify this problem several times.

[BlueB]

Thanks for the help!  

 

As far a board setup, it's not a drop-trough.  The truck are Paris 180mm, with red bushings (are they of a standardized color coding?) and 80a Orangatang InHeat wheels.

Unfortunately, the bushing colors are not standardised... Here's a chart I've put together few years ago. I don't know how outdated it might be now. Probably not much. I hope it helps:

 

Go for softest bushings you can ride without scaring yourself, up front and the hardest ones you can still flex without rear wheel lifting of the ground at the back.

Definitely wedge both trucks in forward direction (turny front, stable rear). Propper board setup makes pumping (and carving) much, much easier.

Stand on the board with front foot as far forward as you can. Like on alpine snowboard, toes and heels on the rail, without much overhang or underhang. That would determine your stance angles.

Learn to push on flat, foot brake and carve on gentle slope first.

Proceed to learn to pump on a very gentle slope, by tightening your carves. When the board seems to be accellerating more then if just turning, you are pumping! Try the same moves on flat. When you think you are really good, try uphill :D

Helmet, wristquards, kneepads and elbow pads are a must, especially while learning. Elbow pads that extend all the way to cover part of the lower arm are better.

 

Have fun ;)

[svr]

st_lupo,

 

I too have been looking for the elusive summer feel of snowboarding and after a long time of trying other things (surfing, mtn boarding, sand boarding, wake boarding, etc.) I finally took some advice from some of the great guys on this forum and tried my hand at longboard skateboarding. I bought a vanguard flex 1 with paris 180mm trucks and yellow o-tang Durian wheels (the hard ones) and love the vanguard for cruising around and easy transportation here in Honolulu as it frees me from having to find parking and I have taken the deck with me on two trips and found that it was great for getting around in Seattle and Tokyo too.  

 

While the vanguard is a great cruise/carving board, I wanted more speed and have attempted downhill longboarding with not much success, as the body motions for traveling straight with minimal turns is similar to snowboarding, but foot weighting, body postioning, edge pressure, sliding and speed checking require very different inputs on a longboard v/s a snowboard and even with knee/elbow pads and a helmet, I have achieved some unique reminders that gravity always wins in my new road rash scars. This is not to say that I have given up, but mastering speed on a longboard is very different than snowboarding...on the positive for my style of riding, my longboard setup has led me to make some changes for my Vanguard...I have replaced the paris 180 trucks with caliber II 50 degree trucks (and replaced the stock cone bushings with the blue harder RAD bushings) as I like the feel of these better than the Paris'. I also swapped out the Durian wheels with purple Keggles and I love my vanguard even more for cruising around at under 20 mph as I get some of the same feel of riding a snowboard in soft snow. Not sure if that will help you much, but thought I would share what I have learned and that I do like the vanguard for cruising around.

 

Additionally, I ride my vanguard with my feet very similar to my snowboard stance and good luck on looking graceful for LDP ;-)

 

cheers,

sandy

Edited May 25, 2015 by svr

[svr]

Some pics of my setups:

[breeseomatic]

good luck on looking graceful for LDP ;-)

 

cheers,

sandy

 

The first time you LDP, you are going to look like a fish out of water:

 

Eventually you get the hang of it:

Edited May 28, 2015 by breeseomatic

[breeseomatic]

I have a Loaded Poke with Carver trucks.  Pretty awesome way to get around the neighborhood to grab a 6-pack.  Very surf pumpy...

 

The best bet is to get used to pushing the board, then try pumping after watching a shit ton of videos to get you amped up.  When you fail, come back and watch more videos with some booze.

Edited May 28, 2015 by breeseomatic

[lafcadio]

I have a Loaded Poke with Carver trucks.  Pretty awesome way to get around the neighborhood to grab a 6-pack.  Very surf pumpy...

 

Curious about which Carver trucks you're using.  Are you using CX or C7 in front?

[breeseomatic]

Curious about which Carver trucks you're using.  Are you using CX or C7 in front?

 

 

CX front and C2 rear.  Loaded soft bushings in front, medium in rear.

[st_lupo]

Thanks!  I might have to look into those kegel wheels. 

 

I'm probably being over-optimistic but I'm planning on packing up the board to keep me occupied at night during a trip to Detroit next week.  I'm a little worried though since one of the things that I remember most from my last trip there were all of the pot holes!