Try new boots, or try heat-fit custom liners?

[jishaq]

Hey guys,

I've been riding Head Stratos Pros for about 7 years, I'm 190 pounds, ride a Prior WCR 181, and my calves are horribly inflexible. I carve in tahoe, mostly groomers, and for chop/post-11am stuff/powder, etc, I switch out to a softie carving setup. They HSPs were beating my legs up quite a bit - I would get rubbed-raw shin bang, and black big toenail pretty much a month into every season on them. The most common response from folks was that they were not tight enough and my feet were jamming back and forth in the toebox (makes sense), and to cinch down those buckles! When I tightened them enough to prevent toe-bang, they were so tight on my shins that they would get all swollen and rubbed raw.

The boots carve great on perfect groomers, but if there is chop or anything that requires throwing the board around, I tend to get my feet banged up pretty badly. I put a BTS kit on to try to give my feet a little more mobility -- not sure they helped much, but they sure look cool.

So anyway I was thinking of getting different, softer boots. A bootfitter suggested trying out the custom-molded liners first, and anyone I've ever talked to say custom-molded liners are the ****. Not sure if I want to risk investing any more cash in the Stratos Pros, or if it's time to move on to something softer. Just wanted to know if you guys had any input. Thanks!

[teach]

I had a similar problem with toe bang. In my case it was because my heels are very narrow and no amount of liner molding helped. Downsizing to the smallest shell my feet could fit helped, but I still had heel lift, which caused other problems. I switched to UPZ (from Deeluxe), which have a much narrower heel, and that solved the problem. So I'd suggest trying out a smaller size of HSP and some other brands of boots and noting the differences in fit, particularly in the heel and ankle. I think HSPs have a lot of room there, but I've never tried them myself. Once you get a good fit from the shell, then tweak the liners. Lots of information here: http://beckmannag.com/alpine-skiing/boot-fitting/01-overview

One thing that article points out is how much room the shell should have. The crude test is to put your bare foot into the shell (no liner) and move it as far forward as possible without bunching up your toes. Then gauge how much room there is between your heel and the back of the boot. If it's more than an inch or so the boots are almost certainly way too big. You want a little less than half an inch, probably.

[Hilux]

My first thought is that after 7 years your liners are done and the liners packed right out. Secondly, I would verify if you still have the right sized shell and proper shaped shell for your foot. Believe it or not your foot size and shape can change over the years and I've seen this first hand with myself and working in a reputable running store for years. HSPs are quite high volume through the entire boot I find too. I switched to UPZ and found them to be a perfect shell fit for my D width foot with moderately flat arch ("corrected" to some degree with off-the-shelf footbeds). You might also want to check out Eliminator pads that are placed in between your shin and liner if you have extra space with your current liner but that might only be a band-aid to the issues you are having. But first I would ensure that your shell size is still good by following this (you may have already done this so sorry for potentially stating the obvious :o)

https://bomberonline.3dcartstores.com/assets/images/PDFs/Sizing_boots.pdf

I'm a huge proponent of custom liners. I toughed it out at first with stock liners from both HSPs and my UPZs and then I baked a thermoflex liner and it made a dramatic difference in comfort and feel as well as eliminated any shin bang and slop I was having. I must admit after the first molding my feet were a little sore and it took a couple times out to really be near perfect but that was my first run at DIY molding. If you buy liners you aren't necessarily "investing" anything more into the shells, more investing in the longterm comfort of you foot and then the liner can be remolded (typically 5-6 times) if you decide to switch shells/boots if that makes sense. Hope that helps a little and I'm sure others will chime in with their experience and expertise.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Hilux

[Hilux]

Great minds think alike teach :D

[Bobby Buggs]

A set of Thermoflex liners can be life changing.

[avante]

I've spent three seasons riding Stratos Pro with Intuition Power Wrap (it is one of the stiffest out there) custom moldable liner. Overall impression is great, I may recommend it. With proper fitting it may solve your problem (though I can not guarantee that). Also, keep in mind that any moldable liner will not be that stiff as the original liner of HSP (my weight is 220 lbs. and it was not a problem for me).

[Corey]

Do your heels lift in the Heads? As noted above, they're a high volume boot so if you have a skinny heel your foot can swim around in them. The Deeluxe shells are narrower in the toe box and mid-foot, and the UPZs are narrow in the heel and fairly wide in the toe box.

I struggled with heel lift and my foot sliding forwards in Deeluxe boots with every liner I tried, even with the buckles cranked down super tight. But I'm happy in UPZs with Intuition liners. Different feet like different boots, maybe Heads are the best for you.

The cutting mod for Head boots discussed above is shown here: http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9505#p9505 (Plug that into http://translate.google.com/ to convert to English, sort of...) There is also lots of spring talk through that thread.

[Beckmann AG]

Kinda sounds like your boots are too big, or a poor match for your foot volume.

The added drag of the chopped snow, combined with the length of the Prior, are conspiring to remove the shoes from your feet.

Changing liners and foot support will change the size of your bank, not the size of the boot.

FYI, a properly sized stiffer boot will usually feel softer than a softer boot that is too big.

[Mike T]

FYI, a properly sized stiffer boot will usually feel softer than a softer boot that is too big.

So true!!!!

[jishaq]

Thanks for the input guys, it's really helpful.

I originally bought & had these fitted at Elite Feet in Squaw Valley back when they still sold them to support Flo (Brian) and Christian, so I think they are sized correctly. I just didn't shell out for custom liners, it was painful enough buying the boots at retail prices.

Foot volume: I should have mentioned that I have high volume feet, mostly because they are comically flat -- I don't think my ankle pulls up when I ride (but that sounds really annoying).

Sizing: I wear a size 12 normally, and the Stratos Pros are 28.5 which I think are more like a 10.5. When I put them on, I usually spend about 2 minutes per boot in a whole-body static contraction as I jam my foot into the liners, frantically wriggling the tongue, forehead veins bulging out, teeth gnashed, arms waving about trying to make myself heavier to wriggle in that last half inch before my foot plops down inside. Once they're on, they *very* snug when walking around, but not to the point of actual discomfort ... well unless I have a partially-detached and bruised up toenails, horribly-bruised and rubbed-raw shins, that kind of thing, and then any notion of comfort is replaced by excruciating pain. But it tends to go away once I'm locked in to my forward lean so I just man up and carve.

So from your guys' input:

* I am pretty confident that the shells are sized correctly and aren't too big

* My fat feet probably have packed the **** out of the stock liners by now and that's not good

* I should definitely invest in getting custom heat-molded liners for my existing boots, rather than trying to switch brands

Regarding custom orthotics, I actually am getting some made by a physical therapist in Incline Village -- that is why I brought all of this up in the first place. I plan to use these orthotics as the basis for the custom liners, so if that doesn't dial me in, I don't know what will!

[teach]

Foot volume: I should have mentioned that I have high volume feet, mostly because they are comically flat

High volume can mean a lot of things. High volume heels? If no, then it sounds like your heel is allowed to slide forward. If yes, then maybe your foot isn't so flat, but flattens out in certain circumstances. That can also cause them to lengthen, and I suppose toe bang could result. Better support or more room in the appropriate toe area might help. I'd say before spending money (and wasting time), pull the liners out and put your bare feet in (carefully) and get a sense for how the shell suits your feet.

Sizing: I wear a size 12 normally, and the Stratos Pros are 28.5 which I think are more like a 10.5

I wear size 13 street shoes and had to go down to M28 in Deeluxe. I use M29 UPZ now (plenty of room in these) but intend to try M28 with proper support.

[Hilux]

LOL, love the description of getting your feet in the boots.

I would still double check your foot size though against the shell size before taking the plunge with new liners...just to be 100% certain. Check your mondo size and if you are within a few mm of 28.5 for each foot you should be good.

The last thing you'd want is to buy new liners for your shells that don't fit your foot anymore. If you do need to upsize/downsize shells then you run the risk of being stuck with new liners you can't use as they were sized to your current shells. I measure a 27.9 left foot and 27.6 right foot and a 27.5 shell is good. I do however upsize my heat moldable liners to a 28 which some companies suggest (Intuition used to, and my old thermoflex are 28) and I just recently acquired a pair of Palau's in a 28 that fit right in. I know some on here have fit scarpa’s (intuition) a few sizes up, I believe a 30/31 mondo into much smaller shells too.

Hope you get this sorted out and it may take a while with some trial and error.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Hilux

[Beckmann AG]

In light of recent developments:

1. An Egyptian foot

2. A low instep

c. A large-ish calf muscle scenario

d. All of the above

5. Some of the above.

Which circles back to:

...or a poor match for your foot volume

If any of the above ring true, punch out the big toe area, reduce the forward lean of the cuff, and slip a spacer shim (or two) under your liners to bring your instep closer to the 'ceiling' of the lower shell.

In whatever order suits your fancy. That-all should run you around $50+-, depending on the local exchange rate.

(Ask for a 'Bontex' shim at your friendly neighborhood ski shop, or carve a pair of foot-shaped sections from the side of a 5 gallon pickle bucket.)

Maybe post a few photos of your 'most hammered' foot, as viewed from above, and from the side?

In some cases, supporting a foot with a footbed/orthotic will actually make a boot 'looser'.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Beckmann AG

[jishaq]

I had the shells fitted to my bare feet when I bought them many years back. I don't remember the details, but I do know we went down to 28's and deemed them too small, so went with 28.5. But who knows, that decision might have been based on going with the stock liners vs getting more space-efficient custom liners, I don't remember.

When I go in, I will certainly make sure the bootfitter goes through all of the motions again, as if I were buying new. It makes sense that the shells might still be too big based on the symptoms, and downsizing shells is always attractive because it allows lower binding angles.

Also I have some reading to do, there are some good links in this thread that I've dog-eared.

I'll be sure to follow up with progress and pictures. I'm sure you're all looking forward to pictures of my stinky feet!

[Pat Donnelly]

Shintronics might help you http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?40557-Manoove-Shintronics&highlight=manoove

[Allee]

When I put them on, I usually spend about 2 minutes per boot in a whole-body static contraction as I jam my foot into the liners, frantically wriggling the tongue, forehead veins bulging out, teeth gnashed, arms waving about trying to make myself heavier to wriggle in that last half inch before my foot plops down inside.

Thank Dog. It's not just me.:)

[Shred Gruumer]

New boots...I gave up on the whole smashed toe thing this year went to rc8 up a size and use the special inserts they give to take up space..finally a boot I can stay in all day and no morw new toe nail evey year..