Don't Pat the Dog

[eajracing]

I've noticed with beginner that the bend at the waist is a subconscious way of making the fall to the snow a shorter distance, and many riders at all levels do it once things get a little hairy for the same reason. As a trick to beat it out of those who wouldnt give it up, I'd make them carve down the bunny hill leaving only perfect lines - you cant go slow and lean over like that. In regards to the EC style - it was watching the peter bauers and jean nervas that got me doing it and it lead to many broken walkman's before I realized that you have to let the snow come to you. Watch Bruce. He's got it nailed. I continue to attempt to emulate.

[jtslalom]

I constantly bend at my waist but definately not in the direction that is shown in the video. I try to bend and hang over the edge of my board as much as possible. My knees drive my boards turn while bending at my waist towards the edge of the board gets a lower center of gravity. My hands rarely touch the snow, however on occasion my left and right hip and both knees do.

[Skully]

haha, not really. :D shoulders are still above the hips.

Jeff's shoulders are "above" his hips here too?

[Guest]

so maybe this is part of it: (green is the shoulder line, blue is slope of hill)

[Guest]

Just remembered this: somewhere in the technique articles section there is a tip that says to borrow a ski pole or peice of bamboo and make sure it's constantly parellel to the slope of the hill.

I had a moment last year where I caught myself, only on toeside, reaching for the snow just like we're talking about here. Riding with a ski pole flips me out (impale yourself, much?) so I just held my arms out like an airplane and made sure they were parellel to the slope. As soon as I did that, I noticed how I was reallllllly reaching for the snow and how bad my form had been - Keeping the arms out like that was a good constant reminder to stop trying to touch the snow (or pat the dog, as I understand the term).

You can see in the picture above (or maybe you can't, i had to shrink it so much) that if Jeff held his arms out like an airplane, it would look totally off, whereas if Jack held his arms out like an airplane, it would still look alright.

[Jack M]

I think this is a better view of what's going on in my toeside. This turn is a bit better because in my avatar I was hamming it up for the camera. I wasn't aware of it here:

What I meant by shoulders above the hips was that if you imagine a line drawn perpendicular to the top of the board, like a mast, the upper body is angled up further away from the snow than that line. In the (old?) picture of Jeff, his upper body is tilted down from that line, towards the snow.

I think this photo of Jasey Jay Anderson is the ultimate toeside:

(there used to be a bigger version online somewhere)

I try for that. The snow conditions above allowed me to be a little lazier though.

[Skully]

Dang it all to heck, I forgot to include the correct tags in my first post in this thread.

[sARCASM]Jeff's shoulders are "above" his hips here too? [/sARCASM]

I believe this was a Mike Jacoby drill in a magazine I read once: Hold your arms out to your sides, and pretend you are holding a bucket of water by the handle in each hand as you turn. Keep the buckets level with each other, and try not to spill the water...

I can't count the number of times I've used that example with folks...

[Jack M]

Ha!

I remember reading that Mike Jacoby tip, that's a good one, thanks for reminding me.

[Beckmann AG]

Take a run or two holding a pair of power-walking hand weights. That will put a few things in perspective.

[philw]

...

What I meant by shoulders above the hips was that if you imagine a line drawn perpendicular to the top of the board, like a mast, the upper body is angled up further away from the snow than that line.

...

I think this photo of Jasey Jay Anderson is the ultimate toeside:

Agreed on both points. I think you want your centre of gravity pretty much in line with the acceleration of the board - a line from I guess the edge to the centre of the turn radius, perpendicular to the top of the board or there abouts. Just like banking a bike.

In fact is not the "arse in the air, hands on the snow" pose a reflection of precisely that? Bending one bit of you down is going to cause another bit of you to stick up or you'd fall over. It's the old "cause and effect" thing - you don't want to get them the wrong way around.

But even done well, diving down to the snow looks a little odd, like ballet skiing or something but done continuously.

[Pat Donnelly]

Mark Fawcett

[Jack M]

I think you want your centre of gravity pretty much in line with the acceleration of the board - a line from I guess the edge to the centre of the turn radius, perpendicular to the top of the board or there abouts. Just like banking a bike.

Right, but you don't just want your c.o.g. there, you don't have a choice. If it's not on that line, you're either falling or rising or skidding.

In fact is not the "arse in the air, hands on the snow" pose a reflection of precisely that? Bending one bit of you down is going to cause another bit of you to stick up or you'd fall over. It's the old "cause and effect" thing - you don't want to get them the wrong way around.

Right.

But even done well, diving down to the snow looks a little odd, like ballet skiing or something but done continuously.

I think Patrice Fivat makes it look like fun. Same for Ray here.

[CaRtharsis]

I was riding with Jack last winter at Sugarloaf and having quite a bit of frustration. I've been riding for a long time but just couldn't seem to progress.

He gave the the task of lifting my inside shoulder and bringing the outside arm across my body. I may be over simplifying it so please correct me Jack. It effectively forced me to not break at the waist by exaggerating the motion which kept the shoulders parallel to the slope.

Consciously lifting the inside arm prevented me from reaching for the snow, and being a fat guy prevented me from being able to reach across the body and touch the snow. Win Win!! LOL

[WASMAN]

no need to draw a straight line on this pic.... I think I was practicing 'the hold out your arms drill without even trying.....'

SES 2011 at Buttermilk.

[nurse ben]

Okay, I'll admit this before starting: I'm a skier, worse, I'm a telemarker. All of my race training is as a skier. So when I think about edging, body position, transitions, etc... I think in skiing terms.

Do you all know what I mean by making your body into a "C" to counteract the forces of gravity and to keep the weight on the edges?

Some of the picture show a very laid out position, which is certainly fun, but is more likely to push the board/edge across the snow (destablize). Notice the body position that Jasey is keeping is more of a C, which keeps some downward pressure on the edge. This also allows a quicker transition to the other edge.

Another thing to consider; more of my ski training, is that your body will follow your extremeties and head, meaning that if you drop your hands, shoulders your body will follow. In this case, you may be leading with your hands before your body and the board are ready to drop, in essence forcing the turn and leaning the board too early, which would cause you to skid or rail.

In skiing, a few exercises we practice are skiing without poles with your hands in front of you (in the box) pretending you have a light on your hips and shoulders with the goal of keeping the "light" pointed down the fall line. These techniques prevent shoulder drop and body twisting, helping you maintain proper body positon and keeping your square to the fall line.

I know, damn skiers

[BlueB]

I know, damn skiers

Nope. Skiing and snowboarding = same sport. Well, almost...

[barryj]

Jack,

Great post! ....and I'm old enough that I also owned that Chris Karol video!, it was the first eye opener to the mechanics of carving technique.

....and the second had to be this photo of Mark Fawcett from Alpine, 2001:

I still have that mag and it's folded to that page and still pumps me with motivation each season and I refer back to it continually....so it was equally satisfying to see somebody else also saw something special in it and had keep it all these years and used it as a reference........ great technique and style stand the test of time!

[Jack M]

Jack,

Great post! ....and I'm old enough that I also owned that Chris Karol video!, it was the first eye opener to the mechanics of carving technique.

....and the second had to be this photo of Mark Fawcett from Alpine, 2001:

Thanks Barry. Indeed, Fawcett was the man.

Okay, I'll admit this before starting: I'm a skier, worse, I'm a telemarker. All of my race training is as a skier. So when I think about edging, body position, transitions, etc... I think in skiing terms.

Do you all know what I mean by making your body into a "C" to counteract the forces of gravity and to keep the weight on the edges?

Some of the picture show a very laid out position, which is certainly fun, but is more likely to push the board/edge across the snow (destablize). Notice the body position that Jasey is keeping is more of a C, which keeps some downward pressure on the edge. This also allows a quicker transition to the other edge.

Good skiing technique certainly brings a lot to alpine snowboarding technique, and vice versa. But I have never liked this PSIA notion of downward pressure or sideways pressure. No such thing man. If your board is carving, it doesn't matter if you are hunched over in a "bad C", or executing a perfect "good C", or touching your toes, or standing bone straight like a pole, or riding backwards. You are pressuring the board in exactly one direction. It is the precisely the single direction that balances gravity and centripetal force. If your center of mass is on that line, you will carve, no matter how silly you look, and all your "pressure" will be going straight down that line into the snow.

What makes one body position better than another is if it allows you to maintain or recover that balance when the snow surface gives way or tries to knock you over.

Another thing to consider; more of my ski training, is that your body will follow your extremeties and head, meaning that if you drop your hands, shoulders your body will follow. In this case, you may be leading with your hands before your body and the board are ready to drop, in essence forcing the turn and leaning the board too early, which would cause you to skid or rail.

Agreed.

In skiing, a few exercises we practice are skiing without poles with your hands in front of you (in the box) pretending you have a light on your hips and shoulders with the goal of keeping the "light" pointed down the fall line. These techniques prevent shoulder drop and body twisting, helping you maintain proper body positon and keeping your square to the fall line.

Pointing the light down the fall line is obsolete technique if the goal is round, C-shaped carves that start and finish perpendicular to the fall line. That goes for skiers and snowboarders.

I know, damn skiers

Haha, no way, skiers are welcome here! :D

[Mats]

Hi guys,

For more than a decade I have read this "don´t pat the dog" discussions and I think I have one more clue than pure technique to why it just won´t work for some riders. And that is that a lot of us guys are to stiff and not have enough core strenght. If you can´t simulate the correcte bodyposition in you living room or touch the floor with your hand´s without to much disccomfort you'll never make it on a carving board. Also - it takes a lot of core strenght to counter the forces of gravity over and over and over again charging down a slope. Leg strenght is just half of what you need to surf the snow.

If you bike a lot and then hit the machines in the gym without stretching/yoga you totally **** up on a snowboard I promise (if you don´t a have solid background in boardsports). The guys who skateboard, SUP and surf usually don´t have any probems getting in the positions for smooth snowboarding their body's adjusted and limber enough. As you get older (i´m 51 this year) I need more and more stretching to keep a level of elasticity in my body. Friends of mine can´t get low on a snowboard anymore simply because "it feels like I´m breaking my back and ass".

Fittness is 50% of the secret! Fawcett was half BOL's median age when those pics ran in Snowboard Life. It´s my 50 cents fellow carvers.