Jack M Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Yeah, why not just go legit and do it through the resort? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utahcarver Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Like I said Jack, I couldn't find any other local alternative. Recently, I realized that Chris Karol is operating FAST Snowboarding at PCMR. This will allow me to go 'legit' and not abrogate the rules of Utahs' existing ski areas, if I choose. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipstar Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Was the law violated? Probably. Should I care? Nope. One of the old maxims (?) of law is Habeus Corpus (Bring forth the body). Sorry, I'm not a lawyer so my knowledge of law is from a layman's viewpoint. That is, show the court the damaged property or the damaged person(s). It seems to me that this ski area would have to provide proof that their property (real or productive) was damaged by this agreement I had with my 'coach'. Mark I have never practised law, but i did study commercial law. I think you would find it is a bit of an issue here to just start offering lessons for pay on a ski area; at least probably breach of contract in using the lifts; potential trespass and breach of the terms of the permit granted for use of federal/state land (as you were not granted the right, the ski resort was). Habeus corpus is principally related to unlawful custody rather than any aspect of what you are talking of, namely perceived or real damages. That becomes part of 'damages' in contract law or could be restitution for trespass, a criminal offence. It's quite an interesting case situation, and typical of studying law to consider such an issue. I for one, would prefer not to be part of it. What would make it more interesting; in NZ you do not incur any of the contract issues if you didn't buy a lift ticket, and instead walked up the slope to teach. In USA this would likely or MIGHT be different. By entering the ski area at Mammoth, perhaps you by virtue of entering private property immediately incur a set of legal obligations including having to adher to certain terms and conditions...if so I certainly cannot recall a notice stating them; but nor do I see a notice in front of my house or a farm, both private property also, so it is legally not needed, but the obligations are there nevertheless! I would say teach for free, if you get a gratuity as a result, then that's nice. No contract/consideration with the client; no breach of ski resort terms and conditions, no trespass. Lessons all care no responsbility and not a legal obligation. I taught my then GF for many days in a row on Mammoth....non issue when it is not for money (no consideration = no contract = no commercial activity) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atom Ant Posted September 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Seems like what Kipster is proposing is either just another way to justify the business model in the eyes of the resort ("I'm not charging!), or a pretty massive loophole. Also, OLDSNOWBOARDS... how did you deduce blue hills is the resort in question? I think I know the answer but I am just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrapster Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Otherwise, regarding the liability stuff: how is it that being injured while engaged in a (paid/unaffiliated) lesson entitles you to sue the mountain in a way that being injured during an (unpaid/unaffiliated) lesson does not? I would think that a lesson provided by an endorsed mountain employee/affiliate expressly would give the injured party far greater leverage in a lawsuit than a lesson provided by some yahoo that the mountain doesn't know from adam. Of course, the legal system in the US doesn't always make sense. (I'm not asking this to be argumentative, I'm genuinely curious). I would think suing the mountain over a lesson provided by an unaffiliated party would be no different than suing the mountain over an incident that occurred during non-educational skiing activities. Hi Queequeg, You're pushing the limits of my legal knowledge here. One semester in law school 14 years ago has made me pretty dangerous . That being said, I did get the "thinking like a lawyer" thing down pretty well. My thoughts--for an official lesson, the resort can say that they adhered to accepted standards for the industry, ie. the instructors were trained and certified according to some official program, and the lessons/services they offered were similarly structured and met industry standards. In short, they did the best they reasonably could to serve their clients well. Of course, this doesn't get them off the hook completely. But it helps insulate them from claims they were running some negligent, fly by night operation where they let anyone teach regardless of qualifications or safety considerations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Hi Queequeg,You're pushing the limits of my legal knowledge here. One semester in law school 14 years ago has made me pretty dangerous . That being said, I did get the "thinking like a lawyer" thing down pretty well. My thoughts--for an official lesson, the resort can say that they adhered to accepted standards for the industry, ie. the instructors were trained and certified according to some official program, and the lessons/services they offered were similarly structured and met industry standards. In short, they did the best they reasonably could to serve their clients well. Of course, this doesn't get them off the hook completely. But it helps insulate them from claims they were running some negligent, fly by night operation where they let anyone teach regardless of qualifications or safety considerations. Hey Thanks Scrapster. So I think that explains how the mountain protects themselves from somebody who feels inclined to sue after being injured in a lesson provided by the mountain; but to my mind it doesn't really explain how somebody could sue the mountain for an inury sustained during a lesson provided by a party that is unaffiliated with the mountain. I would think that this falls under "you were skiing on our mountain and got hurt, you knew the risks: so tough noogies". I would think that if you tried to sue Mountain X for an injury sustained during a lesson that was not endorsed by the mountain, the mountain would defend itself by saying something like: "You were skiing on our mountain, and were injured while taking a lesson from an unqualified instructor that we did not vet. We provide our own ski school that employs professional instructors in order to prevent just such an event, and have a policy against outside instructors providing lessons on our property; you are suing the wrong party, we have no liability here". It still doesn't make any sense to me that the mountain would be MORE at risk from litigation from lessons provided by an unaffiliated instructor than by their own. It does seem to me that the unaffiliated instructor does put himself at risk. Maybe there is something that I am not understanding. Otherwise, I'm glad to hear that it is only paid lessons that the mountains are concerned about —*but that also leads me to believe that this is more of an income issue than a liability issue. I'm still not convinced that prohibiting outside lessons is a good move for them, but companies don't always do what is best for them. I could see setting an official policy to prevent an outside company from setting up shop on their slopes and providing a full-fledged ski school to compete with the mountain ski school-but largely leaving it unenforced such that specialty instructors could provide lessons that the ski school is unable to supply (thus preventing people who what to learn specific skills from fleeing to another mountain to do so). I wonder if it has anything to do with the conditions and compensation that ski instructors have to endure at ski schools at the mountains??? It's a lot easier to enforce onerous conditions and low pay if you can limit outside opportunities for your employees. (From what I hear) It seems like ski instructors are severely under-compensated in these programs for their work; and that there are often disagreements with management on teaching style etc ... prohibiting outside lessons on the slopes effectively prevents frustrated ski-school employees from saying "**** this, I'm going independent" and offering their services to people directly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Local Not for profit) bump advertise pipe and park lessons but have no park instructors. I can rent equip. at a shop not connected to the resort is it an illegal rental ? I can get my board tuned off site is it allowed. NIKE RULES (just do it) Our local joke of a hill is selling more equipment at their pro shop than most sport stores so now they are intimidating patrons (season pass holders) with the hard sell "Support your Club". While money off the gross goes to pay rent for the land most of which is owned by the familty that mysteriously runs the place. Not for profit my --- The rent paid in the last 75 years is more than place is worth infastructure included. It's more each year than the land is worth but they won't sell the golden goose because the whole family works there the whole time operating and getting gov't grants as a not for profit. Want to teach a lesson on some elses hill go for it, but if you get in **** for it be prepared to buy a groomer put up a lift and do what you want on your own property. It worked for me all three kids are now instructors. Want to hit 50 foot kickerd doing 60 k behind a snowmobile, inverted airials and back flips encouraged i know a place. Backboard extra ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Like I said Jack, I couldn't find any other local alternative. No, I meant the question for Atom Ant, who wishes to teach. Why not just become a resort instructor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrapster Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Hi Queequeg, More quick thoughts--suing for personal injury is always a fluid thing that takes into account both liability and the ability to pay damages. Liability is often split among several parties in any given case (I remember it even being broken down by percentages--you're 25% liable for the accident, etc.) This isn't really a bad thing. It reflects the sloppy reality of life where multiple people often do screw up. If you can prove they contributed in any way to an injury, you have a "cause of action" against them. HOWEVER, you also go hardest after the liable party with the most money--even if they weren't the most liable. That's the golden rule, and it's plain old hardball. It makes little sense to put much effort into suing an independent ski instructor, unless they're independently wealthy. It's not about right and wrong. It's about getting the most money for your client. As for why a resort should be liable for independent instructors--Anyone offering a service has a "standard of care" that the public should be able to expect for that given industry. For a ski resort, that would likely include monitoring/policing and discouraging unsafe activity on their property. (If they knew someone was regularly doing their own avalanche control, or holding unsanctioned races, they'd reasonably be expected to know about it and do something about it.) For unpaid, casual instruction among friends, it would be impossible for them to keep on top of it, so I doubt any court or jury would hold them liable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 Bottom line is a person who hires the right lawyer can make a case out of almost anything. Why would a business want expose themselves to any additional liability, no matter how remote the possibility, when there is no return in it for them?. Why would they take the chance of having an element outside their control operate on their hill and possibly damage their image or product? I would not allow you to do this at my resort, and if I found out you were operating on my hill behind my back I'd kick you off the property so fast it'd make your head spin. I'd do it right in front of your customer, and the entire lift line you just waited on. If you had a season pass, I'd revoke it. In response to some of the comments about prices for lift tickets and lessons vs. instructor pay etc.... The cost of running a ski area is astronomically high. Nobody's gouging you or pocketing huge profits in this industry that I know of. Especially at a small area. You would reel in disbelief at the money that it takes for, electricity to run chairlifts and pumps for snow making, purchase and maintain snow cats, buy diesel for snow cats and other machinery, pay the wages of the army of people you need to run the place, move earth around to keep steeper parts of the hill from eroding, repair and replace water and electric infrastructure for snow making in the off season, pay the insurance bill, snow removal from roads lots and walks, maintain trails and glades in the off season, run ski patrol, buy and repair snow guns, etc., etc..... In the North East the season is only 3 or 4 months, and you only make money on Christmas vacation, President's week, and MLK weekend. The rest of the year you hemorrhage cash. Snow sports school may be a small percentage of our overall take, but we need every scrap we can get in order to not go the way of the other five hills you used to be able to throw a stone and hit from ours. More importantly, it is an integral part of creating and maintaining our customer base. We create our product, we control our product. We rely on the product we sell to create a living for ourselves, and our employees. The hill you were thinking about may have a different view. I'd suggest asking them if you want to pursue it. If they say no, the answer is no, unless they hold the land in some manner that specifically allows for that sort of use by the public. I'm not aware of anyway that could be the case in my state. Perhaps it's different where you are? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 The Department of Conservation & Recreation (DCR) of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts owns the ski area, which has been leased by numerous companies in the past. The revitalization began in 2007 when Ski Blue Hills Management, LLC (SBHM) was awarded a 5-year lease of the area Looks like the DCR owns the land and the lease is up for renewal. Maybe you could finagle an in with the state. You got any buddies on Beacon Hill?:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 Hi Queequeg, More quick thoughts-- Thanks again Scrapster—again, just curious not trying to be argumentative. I found out you were operating on my hill behind my back I'd kick you off the property so fast it'd make your head spin. I'd do it right in front of your customer, and the entire lift line you just waited on. If you had a season pass, I'd revoke it. (Hangs head in shame and slinks off to the parking lot with his tail between his legs). I was wondering when you would chime in on this thread—thanks for the information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tufty Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 I would not allow you to do this at my resort, and if I found out you were operating on my hill behind my back I'd kick you off the property so fast it'd make your head spin. I'd do it right in front of your customer, and the entire lift line you just waited on. If you had a season pass, I'd revoke it. Fair enough, I guess. Your gaff, your rules, and all that. In response to some of the comments about prices for lift tickets and lessons vs. instructor pay etc....... Cost stuff ... In the North East the season is only 3 or 4 months, and you only make money on Christmas vacation, President's week, and MLK weekend. The rest of the year you hemorrhage cash. Dunno about the haemorrhaging cash bit, but that's probably a difference between resorts and countries. We make *serious* money Christmas / New Year, School Holidays in February and (if we've still got snow) Easter. The rest of the time, we pretty much manage to not make too much of a loss. Otherwise, everything you say is true. Costs a frickin' fortune to run a resort. Snow sports school may be a small percentage of our overall take, but we need every scrap we can get in order to not go the way of the other five hills you used to be able to throw a stone and hit from ours. More importantly, it is an integral part of creating and maintaining our customer base. We create our product, we control our product. We rely on the product we sell to create a living for ourselves, and our employees. That's an odd attitude, from my point of view. But then in France, the schools are independent of the resort (even the ESF), and pay *nothing* to the lift operators apart from the passes they buy (for their clients and instructors). Where I work, there are 3 separate schools giving lessons, as well as a number of independent instructors targetting "niche" stuff like snowskate and snowscoot (no alpine or skwal, though). They don't bring any money in to the lift/resort operators directly, but the fact they are there brings in clients, and clients means pass sales, means cash. We don't run the hotels, bars or restaurants, either. That said, I am *not* sure how you go about being an independent instructor over here, though. There's probably all sorts of certification and (above all) insurance requirements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 Dingbat. Thank's for giving us the "Ski Area" view. It shoud be noted that Jeorg having a "Session" on hill was not an issue. But then who could say "No" to a powerfull snowboard spirit like his. What a great soul he has. Just saw your video of your event. VERY COOL!! What a perfect example of a great time shared by alpine riders. Well done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 First customers on my list would be kids of lawyers lots of lawyers, judges kids too target them with special rates with lots of small type about representing you if you encounter problems with resorts (real small print) get their business cards with weekend cell numbers to contact if you and kids are assaulted by resort staff. Wear lots of body armour. Give candy to the kids that's always a hit. Interesting thread by the way but the length of some replies are starting to look like they are written to generate billable hrs. remember there are only 60 min in an hr. No wonder kids are doing the urban rail stuff. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 (Hangs head in shame and slinks off to the parking lot with his tail between his legs). I was wondering when you would chime in on this thread—thanks for the information. Jose, I'd probably look like this as I snapped your board over my knee too... ...just in case you were wondering. :p:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 Actual laughter was produced! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 I have both been a student through ski school- and also learned from people coaching style not affiliated with a ski school (the ski school's "hardbooter" was sort of clueless riding a Burton M6 in 2003). I have taught through a ski school and also without. My thought is ... if you offer something that is the same as the ski school- Beckman's opinion rings true for me. So for instance. You attend ski school- get certified, and then teach that program on your own... well you are in direct competition with ski school. Not good. If you teach something that is not taught by ski school.... well then...it's different....but still that may not be enough...and it may never be accepted. However, keep in mind the ski school drills took a long time to evolve for a reason, and many principles are sound. Also there is some director at ski school with many years of experience overseeing the instructors to make sure they aren't doing something stupid (that being said...I have seen at Aspen MT. -many times instructors taking young kids on terrain that is both out of their ability level- and in places where they could not be seen from above- perhaps to boast to their parents that their kid skied hard terrain, in hopes of giving the impression that their student is making progress). The thing is... they are insured (for boneheaded moves like that)... you are not. So if you plan to teach on your own (even teaching friends for free) , you had better be sure you are even safer than ski school. And that means not only what looks safe to you, but what actually IS SAFE ..ie from above, or not feeding a student into an area with people whizzing by etc... I have taught sports for many years. With no injuries to anyone..even 15,000 people to Inline skate. There is a method to the madness of giving injury free lessons. You have to be methodical- and thinking of your students safety and possible reactions (correct and incorrect) at all times. I teach people a completely different style of riding and make it clear to them that these skills will not transfer smoothly to the existing ski school teaching method, and that they should explore the other teaching methods and ski school and compare and decide what is best for them...not just take my word on it. I encourage them to go to ski school FIRST. Some people come up to me because they specifically want to ride like me (please don't take the internet videos of me as an example- those are just drills). Which I can do...safely, but I don't openly solicit lessons.. I just do them if asked. If you are not at the level where someone wants to specifically ride like you- you might ask what you are offering your student beyond that of ski school other than just a lower non insured rate. IF you find, after reflecting upon this, that you are not that person with riding ability that people specifically request to ride exactly like you or you can not fulfill the need to make the person into someone of your own calibre.... you may want to go to attend ski school until you become that person. (not to be a PITA, but really ALL students should have a path that doesn't dead end as a terminal intermediate). And all that being said... you still might get hassled whether you are right or wrong. IMHO Great teachers always take the best course for their students into account before their own needs. Some guy shows up to me at age 65 with a bad back and gets 10days a season.. I don't teach that guy... he goes to ski school. Why, Because I would not be able to deliver on the promise before he is 70 and then the G-forces are a bit much for a desk job guy. Always think of your students as wanting to tell people you are the best teacher they could ever hope for....and a good part of that is being able to deliver the goods safely. To put it simply, one accident or injury and you can consider your "private ski school" out of business. And still, you likely will get hassled at some point- because your students success will get known.... they will talk at the bar (where the bartender will hear...and likely is friends longterm with the ski instructors). Personally, I'd like to teach for ski school... if the wage was even good enough to cover my gas.- for the most part teaching is not a money making profession, a lot of bus boys make more after the expenses are tallied. It is more a donation of your time than anything else...even at $150 hr. for 90 minutes a day 15 days out of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 Fair enough, I guess. Your gaff, your rules, and all that.Dunno about the haemorrhaging cash bit, but that's probably a difference between resorts and countries. We make *serious* money Christmas / New Year, School Holidays in February and (if we've still got snow) Easter. The rest of the time, we pretty much manage to not make too much of a loss. Otherwise, everything you say is true. Costs a frickin' fortune to run a resort. That's an odd attitude, from my point of view. But then in France, the schools are independent of the resort (even the ESF), and pay *nothing* to the lift operators apart from the passes they buy (for their clients and instructors). Where I work, there are 3 separate schools giving lessons, as well as a number of independent instructors targetting "niche" stuff like snowskate and snowscoot (no alpine or skwal, though). They don't bring any money in to the lift/resort operators directly, but the fact they are there brings in clients, and clients means pass sales, means cash. We don't run the hotels, bars or restaurants, either. That said, I am *not* sure how you go about being an independent instructor over here, though. There's probably all sorts of certification and (above all) insurance requirements. I'm curious; Do the lift operators own or lease the land they operate on over there? Just to be clear about my comments above, this is my viewpoint and experience regarding the hill that I work at. We are a small family oriented area that is not a destination resort. We also own the land we operate on. The percentage of revenue from lessons at other resorts is likely larger than at ours. We don't see natural snow 'til late December usually and we're well into spring skiing by mid March. Our season is great while it's here but it's Short. We also don't charge anywhere near as much for a private lesson as the area Mitch was hypothetically talking about and we pay our instructors more and significantly more if they are bringing in clients (ie. private requests). I would love to have a guy like Mitch on my staff and would most likely find a way to make it worth his while if he had a niche market to bring to our hill. I'd also find ways to enable him to market the program so long as we weren't loosing money on the deal. We actually already do this with some of our ski instructors. It's a win-win for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 Dingbat. Thank's for giving us the "Ski Area" view. It shoud be noted that Jeorg having a "Session" on hill was not an issue. But then who could say "No" to a powerfull snowboard spirit like his. What a great soul he has. Just saw your video of your event. VERY COOL!! What a perfect example of a great time shared by alpine riders. Well done. Thanks very much! It was a real honor having Joerg and Remo out last season, and what he has done as far as setting up the Pure Boarding rental program here has been just tremendous. I'm looking forward to what sort of interest we can generate in the sport this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 Joerg...he is a great example of how to do it right. Interesting is that he has many older cliental for many many many years (very unusual)- and they are still able to snowboard well WITHOUT INJURY (which tells me he is a great instructor) ... He offers something completely different from ski school. And brings people to the Mountain that likely would not come without his influence. For the Mountain and Joerg it is a clear cut win/win. But you'll see... Joerg is one of the guys that people would say.... "I wanna ride like him!" and exactly him.... Which is why he is VERY successful. People have fun, do not get hurt, and he likely changes their technique a bit to adapt for age if needed. He is a smart instructor ,and he has young students too!.... it is just a credit to him that the older ones do not stop... it proves he knows what he is doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 Blue Hills will know very shortly if you do this without their blessing. Know that. Although if their legal dept is similar to the web department it might have trouble with follow up?Vertical Drop: 309' Skiable Terrain: 60 acres Blue Hills... a better place for a flexible flyer than a snowboard. I think it would be very hard to teach any real skills on such limited terrain...other than setting up a short slalom run. I'd say there wouldn't be much of a service at all to your students who want to carve. Like bomb for 100 vertical feet and make 2 turns..... nah... do not even bother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrapster Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 I'm curious; Do the lift operators own or lease the land they operate on over there? I'm just impressed by your use of a semicolon in a post on an online forum. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordy Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 I didn't read the entire thread and am sorry if this was brought up. According to the US law teaching at a resort if you are not a employee is considered Theft of services, and is a crime that you can be arrested for. If you reveive more then 500 dollars for your services it is considered felony theft of services, the resort operates the hill to make money by giveing lessons when they operate a ski school,(even if there are no hardboot lessons avalable) you are stealing from there possible income. It woulo be like trying to sell burgers next to the lodge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carvedog Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 I didn't read the entire thread and am sorry if this was brought up. According to the US law teaching at a resort if you are not a employee is considered Theft of services, and is a crime that you can be arrested for. I know they have applied theft of services to lift operations; ie you ride the lift, you are stealing the ride up. Any kind of reference for this? I think they would have a very tough time proving this. I can't believe this hasn't been brought up yet. The main reason at most of the mountains I frequent, has been USFS regulations regarding commercial activities on public lands. If money is changing hands and you are on USFS land, they have to approve, get a cut etc. Teh ski area as such cannot prohibit activities until money is involved or if it is public safety related. So they can't prohibit you from walking up the mountain, unless it is say avalanche control related then they can close access. They can't stop you from giving a buddy some riding tips or even a flown blown 'lesson'. If you charge for it, then as the concessionaire that controls access to the mountain - if they know you are providing a commercial service I believe they are bound by the terms of their lease to prohibit, report and prosecute. Or something. The parasailers who access the mtn for commercial rides all have to be licensed through the USFS and the mtn can deny them access if they are not, even though the mtn doesn't offer any kind of sailing itself. I could get into the whole work comp, state's liability and all kinds of other things too. I know a couple of instructor who were injured on the job and their bills ran well over 100K per incident. If you don't have the right insurance or enough, then I guess the state ( us) is just supposed to pick that up and pay for your disability?? Not even to mention if your student gets hurt.... Much more complicated than it appears at first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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