Sizing question for those who have tried HSP's, Deeluxe and UPZ's

[icebiker]

Still mulling the move to hardboots. I measure 31.1 heel to toe (size 14 street)

1) Tried HSP's in 31.5 and they were too tight in the toe box (though I know others here have used them up to size 15, but their tolerance for toe pressure is likely higher than mine:o)

2) hope to try some UPZ's soon thanks to a gracious offer from a fellow BOL member with big feet.

3) might as well think about Deeluxe's too (though no opp'y to try these on), and I think they only go to 31.0 (though BOL size chart states round numbers mean that the size is a range (e.g. 31 = 31.0 -> 31.9).

So, my question is: for those that have tried these brands, how would you say the toe box area compares from one to the other?

a) Is one brand (shells/liners) more roomy than another's?

b) How about the height of the boot mid-foot. Do certain brands have less room for bony arches? (top of the arches, I'm not worried about arch support)

Thanks in advance

[xy9ine]

though i haven't tried the others, i was pleasantly surprised by the roominess of the rc10 toe box. nice wiggle room for sure (while still locking the midfoot / heel down).

[kieran]

were you trying these boots on with a proper insole/footbed/orthotic, rather than the manufacturer one?

[philw]

Not sure, I have both the HSPs and Delux boots but I've not had issues with either hence I can't really compare.

They both have heat mouldable liners, and when the guys do that stuff they put something over your toes to give you wiggle room there.

[Bora20]

though i haven't tried the others, i was pleasantly surprised by the roominess of the rc10 toe box. nice wiggle room for sure (while still locking the midfoot / heel down).

I agree. Once I had the liners molded to my feet to relieve some pressure points (due to my feet, not boots) they were like slippers. I love wearing them!

[teach]

31.1 cm looks like you could use M30 with proper footbeds. I wear size 13 street shoe and depending on how I measure my foot, it's 28.9-29.5 or so and I had huge problems until I downsized from 30 to 29 to 28 Deeluxe boots. Still too much room in the heel, but workable. Very close fit in the toes, but much better than having my feet twist around in the boot and bang in the front. Never would have thought I'd fit a "size 10" boot (size 12 street shoes are always too small, haven't worn them since I was a pre-teen.)

If you come to Blue Mt I can let you do the shell test on M30 Raichle AF700s. (I'd let you try them but for now they're missing a BTS.) That would be a valuable data point... you can spend a lot of money, energy and valuable snow time getting this right...

Fit issues with hard-shells are different than shoes with uppers which conform to your foot. Too much room is the major problem: it's like soft-boot bindings with straps that don't tighten, but worse because of the toe bang.

[Flywalker]

The UPZ toe box is very spacious. lf you can find your size l don't think you will be disappointed.

My wife and l both have quite high arches, hers even more so than mine. The RC10 is the first plastic shell boot she has worn with ZERO modification. This is for an ex-ballerina's messed up, squashed and mangled foot that needed massive work to fit into her race ski boots!

The stock liners have been perfect for both of us as well. Even on the first day we didn't have to loosen our buckles, let alone remove the boots.

[tex1230]

1) get footbeds. you may even be able to go a size smaller with proper arch support

2) toe box size: UPZ > HSP > DeeLuxe

[icebiker]

^^^^Excellent input folks, thanks very much. I got in touch with Dan Yoja to learn a bit more about when next season's UPZ orders will be placed. I hope to hook up with a few of you in the Philly area to try your respective boots too (thanks again for the offers!).

[Guest]

So maybe you ran into the same problem as me - the HSP stock liners are horrible for me. SUPER cramped in the toes even when I put them on outside of the boot! Fortunately, when I bought them, I also had intuition liners I could throw in. Problem solved. ALSO: The footbed of the boots actually comes out. It's a 0.5 cm thick piece of plastic. Instead of the plastic, I put in a decent but generic hiking boot orthotic I wasn't using, then put the intuition in. Also, in the intuition liner, I have an orthotic. I cut the toe part out of this. Super roomy now, and I actually get some more shock absorption from the extra orthotic in there.

[icebiker]

So maybe you ran into the same problem as me - the HSP stock liners are horrible for me. SUPER cramped in the toes even when I put them on outside of the boot! Fortunately, when I bought them, I also had intuition liners I could throw in. Problem solved. ALSO: The footbed of the boots actually comes out. It's a 0.5 cm thick piece of plastic. Instead of the plastic, I put in a decent but generic hiking boot orthotic I wasn't using, then put the intuition in. Also, in the intuition liner, I have an orthotic. I cut the toe part out of this. Super roomy now, and I actually get some more shock absorption from the extra orthotic in there.

Dayum, that's exactly what my issue is...and why didn't I think of that? I assumed that that plastic footbed was required:confused: I have since returned the HSP's as I had a 30 day window to get a full refund. May re-consider the HSP's if the UPZ's I plan to test out don't work out well.

[Guest]

I went to a bootfitter and he pulled out the plastic insert and said "See, there's nothing I can really cut here...this is why we stopped selling head boots...." blah blah blah. So I went home...sad.

Then I was messing with my boots and thought, Wait a second...what's under that plastic thing? So I pulled it out and I don't know why I expected to see like razor blades or something down there...it's just more plastic. Granted, it is not flat, as it would be with the plastic bottom. But with the orthotic it works (luckily or not) perfectly for me.

If you were using the standard liners, I would say that those were probably your problem.

[icebiker]

Thanks Nick and Dave.

All, I've given all the above a read several times, as well as used the search function to find tons out more about the Deeluxe and UPZ's. Have also been in touch with Dan Yoja at UPZ and Michelle at BOL. Here's my dilemma:

I know HSP's in 31.5 (notwithstanding Dave/Nick's trick) are a pinch tight on tips/tops of toes, yet my feet measure 30.8 (not the 31.1 I previously thought) so can't figure out why they feel short. The liners are numbered 29.5 - 31.0, though, so perhaps that's the problem?

So, my options:

1) UPZ: I hear UPZ's have a roomier toebox, but Dan Yoja tells me the largest size available is 30.5 (seems like a big diff to the HSP's), yet some guys are running size 15 feet in them and he feels I could still fit (in fact maybe even down size).

2) Deeluxe: I hear Deeluxes are a bit narrower, but that the Thermoflex liners give you a fair amount of latitude to shape the liner to give you more room lenght and width-wise. They are available up to 31. Liners can supposedly accommodate 31.0 - 31.9

UPZ's are sold out till next year, Deeluxe are available in limited quantities. If you were a big foot like me (size 14), and wanted no toe pressure, would you go with UPZ's in 30.5, or Deeluxe in 31?

Drives me crazy that I have no place nearby to try them all out to help my decisioning, so really appreciate your continued guidance.

[Beckmann AG]

I know HSP's in 31.5 (notwithstanding Dave/Nick's trick) are a pinch tight on tips/tops of toes, yet my feet measure 30.8 (not the 31.1 I previously thought)

so can't figure out why they feel short.

The liners are numbered 29.5 - 31.0, though, so perhaps that's the problem?

What is your foot type?

Egyptian? Greek? Cuboid?

You may notice that the toebox of the boot does not much resemble the peripheral contour of the average set of toes. And it may be particularly at odds with yours.

A qualified boot fitter should have a press die which would enable him/her to reshape the toebox to more closely resemble your foot, and easily gain up to 5mm of interior length without much fuss. And that would be before grinding.

It may also be the case that something about your hindfoot volume does not match the shell, and this could be pushing your foot further into the front of the boot.

Insufficient instep clearance

How about the height of the boot mid-foot. Do certain brands have less room for bony arches? (top of the arches, I'm not worried about arch support)

can also drive your toes into a wall.

If the numbering on the liner is on a plastic wrap around the cuff, this is not necessarily the size of the liner, it may simply be the size range of that plastic piece itself.

With your bare foot in the shell, preferably atop a quality custom footbed, you should have about 5mm of clearance between foot and shell on all sides, notwithstanding one or two errant points of contact. If this is the case, then the liner itself is the problem, and liners are easy to modify.

[Bora20]

Why don't you:

- buy all 3 sets of boots in your size

- try them on with a good bootfitter to see which one fits your foot the best

- keep the best one

- send the other 2 back for a refund

You will only be out the shipping cost, which is probably quite minimal compared to the cost of buying the wrong boot, being in pain, and having to buy another set of boots.

I am still confused if you are tight in the toe box in width or in length???

[icebiker]

and liners are easy to modify.

Thanks Beckmann, does this mean that a liner's interior volume can be stretched to be larger? For example, the HSP 31.5 boot's liner must be something like 30.5 (inside dimension, seeing as my feet are 30.8 and make contact with the toebox of the liner). Yet, the outside of the liner itself has a hard vertically stitched seam at the very end of it, which I would assume means the liner itself can't be stretched...so I am still not certain how it is that a 31.5 liner that doesn't seem to fit a 30.8 foot can be made to be any "longer" inside. Is there that much "moldable" material between the inner and outer dimensions of a liner to create sufficient wiggle room?

Bora, you are right that's really the only way to go for me (Buy, try, return). I started with the HSP's, now mulling Deeluxe, but would like to know if the physical dimensions of a Deeluxe 31 liner are likely to be larger or smaller than an HSP 31.5 liner. As for your question, my main issue is length, not so much width. My big toe (and to some extent 2nd and 3rd toe) are pressed up against the inside of the front of the HSP 31.5 liner. If I get a Deeluxe 31 boot (the liners of which are supposed to accommodate 31.0 - 31.9), I wanted to get a sense of whether I'd have a better or worse length-wise capacity than the HSP liners.

[Corey]

Do you actually have some boots? Do the shell test with no liner in place. The idea is that a conventional liner can be shaved/modified, or a thermo-liner will adjust to your foot once it's molded. If your foot hits the plastic, no amount of work on the liner will fix it, but the shell can be punched/ground/etc. a bit.

[Beckmann AG]

does this mean that a liner's interior volume can be stretched to be larger?

Most likely. If the liner is not a thermo-moldable unit, the interior dimension is constrained by the fabric of the outermost layer. More often then not, this outer layer will not readily stretch until you 'relieve' it with a razor knife. Sometimes toe clearance is gained in a liner by relieving around the heel.

If you do have a thermo liner, inside volume is constrained by the internal dimensions of the shell.

It sounds like the problem here is more the liner and less the shell?

[icebiker]

If you do have a thermo liner, inside volume is constrained by the internal dimensions of the shell.

Thanks Beckmann, you just gave me an "ah-hah" moment. I didn't realize that. The Deeluxe liners are Thermo. The HSP's are partially moldable and have a "felt-like" cover to them.

It sounds like the problem here is more the liner and less the shell?

Yes, when I stand in the HSP's and do the shell test I can get about 2 fingers in there, so I don't think the shell's the issue. If the Deeluxe 31 shell is same as HSP's (I would think they'd have to be at least as big if the liners can take up to 31.9), then perhaps the Deeluxes would be ok. I'm going to give them a shot. WOrst case, I return and try UPZ's next year. Thanks again, appreciate all the advice from everyone.

[Beckmann AG]

when I stand in the HSP's and do the shell test I can get about 2 fingers in there, so I don't think the shell's the issue.

The shell may not be the issue now, but with a two finger fit, it will be, not too far down the road. If you plan on riding more than three times/season, two fingers is a little excessive.

Particularly in a boot with a thermo liner.

Unless your fingers are dimensionally akin to linguini.

[Beckmann AG]

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=33052

[zoltan]

I know HSP's in 31.5 (notwithstanding Dave/Nick's trick) are a pinch tight on tips/tops of toes, yet my feet measure 30.8 (not the 31.1 I previously thought) so can't figure out why they feel short.

I just rolled through UPZ, Head, and Deeluxe boots myself.

A possible reason why your toes feel pinched in the Heads (which is what happened to me) is there's a huge ridge of plastic inside the boot, just above your toes. If you can, pull the liners out and feel it for yourself, it's pretty shocking how large it is. With the shell stock, it pinched down on my toes. When my bootfitter punched out the toes, he also added a little vertical, pushing that ridge away from my toes. It's perfect now. Another option to dealing with the ridge is grinding it down.

For a given size, Deeluxe with have the highest instep, the narrowest toes, and the widest ankle.

[teach]

Thanks, zoltan, once again! Now if a fourth boot company materializes, they have a clear niche to fill: high instep, wide toe box, narrow midfoot/heel boots. I'll buy a lifetime supply.

Icebiker, think of getting boots in two parts: 1) getting the right shell fit. Totally crucial and not always easy, especially when you confound it with 2) getting liners to have a secure but comfortable fit. I suspect Deeluxe MP30s are just right (with plenty of toe room). Again, let me know if you are going to be at Blue Mt anytime soon and I'll bring the MP30 shells for you to do the shell test. Come to think of it, I now have lean adjusters for them, so you could actually try them out if you have some liners.

[icebiker]

Thanks Teach. Totally agree Zoltan's posts (there are a few of them out there that compare the three main brands) are very valuable. Appreciate your offer regarding the 30's. I decided to order a pair of Deeluxe 31's for now (length is my biggest concern) and see how they go. If they aren't right, I'll take you up on your offer, as well as Phil's (he has UPZ's and rides Bear Creek in PA).

Agree with everyone that boot fit is totally an individual issue, and one that is highly subjective...some folks like a form fit, others like a little breathing room, some can't deal with heel lift, others can. I'm a newbie to this all. I've only tried three boots so far:

HSP 31.5's (toes pinch)

Burton Reactor 31's (toes pinch)

Raichle rentals (circa '98 in Wengen, Switz): Not sure what size, but it was the biggest size they had, and they fit great.

Hoping that if Deeluxe didn't change much from the old Raichle molds, maybe I'll get lucky:)

[zoltan]

Have you tried Deeluxes before? From what you've explained, I think they'd be the boot least suited to you.

To my knowledge, the Deeluxe and Raichle molds are the same.