Extended (nose) -on PLATE

[bjvircks]

Let me ask.... did racers go off and develop plates to make their ride more comfortable or make the board flex perform better?

Screw this.... get back to the duck bill! I think it's there to put advertising and sponsor logos.

[mykcuz]

Time for a cubicle carver to chime in with $0.02

Several comments have been made throughout this thread regarding damping (that is "damping"... DAMPENING is wetting your pants or whatever.)

DAMPEN--to dull or deaden.

DAMPING--–noun Physics .

1. a decreasing of the amplitude of an electrical or mechanical wave.

2. an energy-absorbing mechanism or resistance circuit causing this decrease.

3. a reduction in the amplitude of an oscillation or vibration as a result of energy being dissipated as heat.

I think use of either is acceptable. To dull the impact of the nose of the board and the plate to reduce stresses on the board may even be more accurate than decreasing a mechanical wave. As the motion is more of a sudden impact and bending of the board, of which the impact forces are being dulled or deadened, then it is a wave.

But you could also argue that going through the turn is in deed causing waves of energy. However, I contend that we are talking about a singular specific intense bend (wave) in the board during an extreme aggressive dive of a turn.

The plate idea is something that can benefit a racer by helping the board to over achieve, just as it helps a smooth mountain carve by helping to keep contact and position of the riding edge to maintain a clean line over difficult riding conditions. Similar to being able to steer a race care with power steering and independent suspension, means the driver not having to muscle around a turn compensating for wheel hop. Just as the average car driver benefits from the smoother ride and safety of swerving and maintaining control in an avoidance maneuver around a bend.

The duck bill reference is dead on...under the water there's motion like crazy, but up top everything looks smooth. As in a duck paddling its feet like hell.

[scrutton]

the duck bill! I think it's there to put advertising and sponsor logos.

Best idea yet.

Actually, I think that if it was longer/higher and had a small travel mountain-bike rear shock attached to the front of it, and the nose of the board, it would make a lot more sense. Maybe, it's there for future development projects. :-)

[ursle]

OPEN FOR DISCUSSION:

I've seen pixs of Extended front part of APEX Plate, I was wondering the reason to add more weight to it. I've also seen pixs where they attached some kind of hard foam underneath the plate on the front end.

1) I wonder if this nose shape cud have saved his board? The extended nose shape is intended to reduce/limit the board bending?

2) When front part of the board push the front plate "nose" end up, the plate will be bend in the centre, wud it that be defeat the purpose of having a stable platform?

RT

IMHO

The nose of the Apex plate is being tuned to control the amount of bend in the front of the board, used a Vist plate last winter and on the toe side turn there were times on hard snow when the board would make 10' or less carves at speed, if I were on a course I would have hooked right off the course.

1) No, (caveat)he was cartwheeling, was he cartwheeling because the nose hooked?, if so, the board wouldn't have hooked with a plate with a tuned,extended nose, but as he cartwheels several times per season...

2) No, the plate isn't going to bend in the middle, the amount it bends in front is being tuned, length, thickness, bumpers to change where it contacts the board.

Plates were put on skis to improve the ability of the ski to bend during a carve, plates are being put on boards to improve the ability of the board to bend during a carve.

Boards designed for plates are getting beefed up noses because the plates allow them to hook, "pre" beefed up boards need plates with a device on the nose to restrict the amount the board is allowed to bend.

[Corey]

Similar to being able to steer a race care with power steering and independent suspension, means the driver not having to muscle around a turn compensating for wheel hop. Just as the average car driver benefits from the smoother ride and safety of swerving and maintaining control in an avoidance maneuver around a bend.

I was going to use the power steering analogy in my review of lowrider's plate (http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=324099#post324099) but didn't. I try to avoid car analogies as most posters here aren't as nuts about car racing as I am. I think the analogy is very appropriate in many ways:

1. I think the feedback is still there with a plate, but quite subdued compared to a naked board.

2. When power steering was first implemented, race drivers complained constantly about not being able to feel what the tires were telling them. They were used to feedback with the volume knob turned to 11; you can still 'hear' feedback with power steering even though the volume knob is turned to 3 or 4.

3. Current power steering systems are much more refined than early ones, and give better feedback to the driver. I'm sure Karl's first plate wasn't successful, every design iteration makes it a bit better by removing unneeded frequencies and keeping the good ones.

You could do an Engineering Masters or Doctorate thesis trying to discern what sorts of signals a rider needs to receive in order to know what a board is doing on the snow and which ones could be filtered out to reduce fatigue. Or you could just give a range of designs to expert testers (World Cup racers and others) and see which ones they like. Sounds like what all the plate manufacturers are doing/have done, doesn't it? ;)

[Jack M]

We do not know the original intents behind the birth of the plate. There would be value in increasing both the performance of the board and the comfort of the rider. A device that only allowed the board to work better but didn't increase the riders' comfort wouldn't allow the rider to perform much better, and therefore wouldn't be as effective. Setting out to design such a device would be short-sighted and ignoring half the equation.

On the other hand, there would similarly be very little value in a device that increased the rider's comfort without increasing board performance (edge hold). Actually this would be even worse because it would give the rider a false sense of increased performance. I think it's a safe bet this was not Karl's intent.

[mykcuz]

We do not know the original intents behind the birth of the plate. There would be value in increasing both the performance of the board and the comfort of the rider. A device that only allowed the board to work better but didn't increase the riders' comfort wouldn't allow the rider to perform any better, and therefore wouldn't be as effective. Setting out to design such a device would be short-sighted and ignoring half the equation.

On the other hand, there would similarly be very little value in a device that increased the rider's comfort without increasing board performance (edge hold). Actually this would be even worse because it would give the rider a false sense of increased performance. I think it's a safe bet this was not Karl's intent.

I disagree with paragraph 2. It's a basic principal that if you reduce the amount of calculations and adjustments required of the rider, you free up his concentration to focus on things such as body position. By reducing the attention required on a given workload you allow an expansion of productivity. More of an efficiency thing. Think of an astronaut trying to guide his flight using manual instruments as if he were in a piper. removing the need for him to micro-manage one thing allows him to focus on a new aspect. Like all areas of life, you lose the romance a little.

you are right though, if the plate did not help with edge hold. But from what everyone is saying, a plate allows you to plow through chop and like butter.

[Corey]

This is probably the wrong thread for this, but I can't think of a better time:

Mark - what are your thoughts on axle spacing? I believe the Bomber plate places the axles considerably further apart than the Donek plate, just going on the fact that the Bomber design cantilevers them outside the typical 4x4 pattern while the Donek design has them within the pattern. I imagine that changes the 'feel' considerably.

[ursle]

Not completely accurate. I mounted up a Burner (which rode awsome btw)and several pre nose stiffened Doneks with a plate and there was absolutely no indication the the nose of these board was being over powered.

2 Good point's

1 The board was an NSR(metal, different flex characteristics)

2 This phenomenon only applies to hard snow.

[Jack M]

I disagree with paragraph 2. It's a basic principal that if you reduce the amount of calculations and adjustments required of the rider, you free up his concentration to focus on things such as body position.

If the board isn't performing any better, but you make the rider <i>think</i> it is, that's trouble. I rode a prototype set of isolator plates that were reeeeealy cush. They increased comfort a lot. However, they were separate - one for each foot, and they were very heavy and had massive foot prints (dead spots) on the board. This would make the board perform worse, but I felt more comfortable. Fortunately (or unfortunately) I was on hero snow, so it didn't matter. But devices like that aren't solving any problems. Any device worth using <i>must</i> increase edge hold and rider comfort in harmony.

[Jack M]

Huh, the board is performing better by default. By this I mean that it is allowed to flex/bend/and deflect as it needs without opposing and performance defeating inputs from a directly mounted rider, hence "isolation".

Right, but improving board performance had to be one of the design intents. If you set out to only improve rider comfort, you end up with a device like the one I described above.

The quote from Fin says very nicely that improving board performance was one of the major design intents.

[Jack M]

Duh, improving board performance by allowing the board to act/react to the snow surface and rider imput in a natural and unimpeeded fashion by isolating the ride on a elevated and dare I say floating platform.

yeah? That's what I'm saying.

[mykcuz]

I would argue that the plate does not improve board performance. It improves rider performance. It is not changing the board in any way. It prevents the rider from preventing the board to act in it's natural way.

So, instead of the rider micro managing the board to perfection at every change in terrain, the plate isolates the rider from preventing the board from doing what it otherwise wants to do. Essentially requiring less "talent" to get that pinnacle amount of edge hold. It is not doing this completely for you, but it is making it much easier for the rider, which results in a better overall performance.

I think we basically agree on this Jack, we are just splitting hairs for arguments sake. You are right as i added in the last sentence of that post. If the plate resulted in no performance gain it would be pointless. But then again you would also have to concede wearing comfortable socks has little or no performance gain, but there's a reason we wear them.

[Jack M]

I would argue that the plate does not improve board performance. It improves rider performance. It is not changing the board in any way. It prevents the rider from preventing the board to act in it's natural way.

Semantics. If edge hold is improved, I'd say that the board performance has been improved.

I think we basically agree on this Jack

I think so.

[mykcuz]

Because you are removing interference from what the board would otherwise be doing. This is not board performance increase, it is allowing the board to perform at its true potential.

Improving suspension does not make your tires better, it allows them to grip like they were intended. resulting in better track performance. A better driver could have had a better lap time, but instead of a change in skill you improved lap time by having more contact time of the tires to the ground thus more time under control and acceleration. But the tires are the same, they are just doing their job more often as compared to someone skidding through a corner because of a suspension not providing proper contact of tire to ground.

like i said we are saying the same thing, but looking at it from a different aspect.

I would say a plate is not increasing board performance, it is increasing overall performance by isolating undesired interference from the rider. You are saying a plate is making the board better. I am saying it is stopping you from making the board under perform. Theres a subtle difference.

[mykcuz]

Anyway... If the duck bill intererence happens at a point that prevents board break:biggthump

If it happened at a point that caused stresses and breakage...

Lets hope it isn't there because someone figured why not, but because it was planned and purpose built.

[Michael Pukas]

Essentially requiring less "talent" to get that pinnacle amount of edge hold. It is not doing this completely for you, but it is making it much easier for the rider, which results in a better overall performance.

Just be a careful with that statement... plates are not for beginner or intermediate level riders with "less" talent. They are for advanced/expert riders. It takes a lot "more" talent to ride a board with a plate than without. Does a plate make it easier to get to the pinnacle of edge hold? Yes, if you've already got the talent, the plate allows you to get better edge hold than before. But if you don't have the talent a plate won't make you a better rider. You have to be of a certian level already to get the added benefits a plate offers (and I'm only just there :p).

I've noticed that the primary benefit of a plate is rider isolation from the bumps, irregularities, etc. on the snow. Calling it "comfort" can be a bit misleading I think, but I'll concede it's an appropriate term. I like to think of it as causing less upset to the rider. This aspect is HHUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEly apparent. Everything else about the board bending in it's natural arc, better edge hold, better performance of the board, etc, is all there, but its' secondary and not nearly as significant. Plates have a noticeable effect on perfect groom, even when you don't really need a plate you still notice the benefits, but on choppy irregular snow is where the plate's function is most noticeable.

Maybe not a good analogy, but does a front suspension on a mountain bike allow the bike to perform better, or allow the rider to perform better due to less upset from the terrain under the bike? I suppose you can look at it from either perspective...

[mykcuz]

Understood. You are achieving a ride equal to someone who is more talented without immediately increasing your own talent. I doubt anyone reading this confuses that. for example you have "x" talent and are riding a hand me down with the edges ripped off. Your ride perormance is "P".

switch the next run to a brand new carver, you still have "X" talent but now your performance is "P" times 100.

In the words of Bill Clinton, What's the definition of "Is?"

[Jack M]

It takes a lot "more" talent to ride a board with a plate than without.

Umm, did you just say that riding with a plate is more difficult? I'm out!

[Michael Pukas]

Umm, did you just say that riding with a plate is more difficult? I'm out!

No, didn't mean to imply that, just trying to make it clear that a plate is for advanced riders; Or that a plate will not make you a better rider than you really are. You can't just hop on a plate and sit back and think that your work is done for you.

[Michael Pukas]

Understood. You are achieving a ride equal to someone who is more talented without immediately increasing your own talent. I doubt anyone reading this confuses that. for example you have "x" talent and are riding a hand me down with the edges ripped off. Your ride perormance is "P".

switch the next run to a brand new carver, you still have "X" talent but now your performance is "P" times 100.

Yeah, I sort of see what you're saying... The talent level you have is all you've got; a plate won't make you a better rider. It allows you to perform at a higher level in adverse, less-than-ideal conditions.

[GeoffV]

No, didn't mean to imply that, just trying to make it clear that a plate is for advanced riders; Or that a plate will not make you a better rider than you really are. You can't just hop on a plate and sit back and think that your work is done for you.

I agree Michael, you can't sit back and let the board+ plate do the work. You need to be on your game. My concern is that entry level and intermediate riders will purchase a plate and will not necessarily be happy with the results (if the expectation is that the plate will improve their riding). In hero conditions there should be no need for a plate.

[pokkis]

Hmmm.

Could someone specify required riders skill levels when rider is allowed to use metal board and when allowed to use plate

[Shred Gruumer]

"In her coniditions".. The short bus must be taking a beating these days... :lol:

Its all good... cool that you rode one..

I tested a SGP plate with the new lower mounting and must say I can't wait to get back on it.. For me I like everything about it.. Love how cushy a ride it is ... like a big ole caddi DeVille with worn out shocks..Not bouncy but it made hard pack seem like it was ridding through soft pack, that butter cutting feel.. I like that and thats what im used to feeling as I try to get my boards as damp as possible.. Never felt like I didn't know what the board was doing it just felt smoother.. had no problem getting low and laying out carves like with out a plate, it was the same.. but better.. I just wouldn't use it in real soft snow as I think I would bury it..

Dunno.. Im sold on a plate for my reasons ,... It works for me...

Very entertaining post...

RSS

[Michael Pukas]

Hmmm.

Could someone specify required riders skill levels when rider is allowed to use metal board and when allowed to use plate

At least as good as you Pok! ;)