Got cash, but meagre talent: how much should I drop on a carving board?

[trailertrash]

Dude, how many times do I need to invite you to ride with me in Utah? You are just scared it might be a powder day and you would have to sit in the lodge! :D

Just because I stayed at your house doesn't mean I will ride with you!

:D

[Beckmann AG]

Would you teach your kid to drive in a stick shift car with no power steering?

Absolutely. And given the proper context with appropriate safety gear, they would be encouraged to slide it around and get it up on two wheels, if possible.

[queequeg]

Agree on that. But when it comes down to covering bad technique with top notch material, it looks a bit different.

You can't hide bad technique with modern technology. Modern technology will help every rider get the most out of their skills, regardless of what levels they are riding at but it will not magically erase mistakes. If you've got a bad habit of petting the dog and sitting on the toilet, metal under your feet will not suddenly make that go away. Metal may not magically make you a better rider, but it will help you achieve the greatest amount of power and control from the skills you have honed so far. The amount of benefits you reap from new school decks improve in tandem with your skills: the better you get, the more you get out of them.

While it is true that a super stiff, narrow glass board will punish mistakes more immediately and more violently, those same mistakes have the same effect on new-school shapes and construction: you just have a bit longer to correct them. Some people think that riding a less forgiving deck will teach you to be a better rider by forcing you to be more precise. That may be so for people who have achieved somewhat advanced skills, but for most people a less forgiving deck is just going to make it harder for you to experiment freely with technique—and that will definitely slow down the learning process.

If making things more difficult improved the learning curve: we'd all start out carving on Burner 197's mounted with OS2's, wearing Indy's and locked Lean Mechanisms, down an icy double-black diamond.

[kieran]

Absolutely. And given the proper context with appropriate safety gear, they would be encouraged to slide it around and get it up on two wheels, if possible.

also, no ABS or traction control!

[Buell]

I don't want to make any masochistic suggestions. I just don't agree that NSR boards have no downsides and are generally easier to ride.

I've been riding metal boards for 5 years now. And I love the smooth feeling they give me. I agree that smoothness if not dampness can be of great value even for the beginner. But maybe more so for the advanced rider because he goes faster. After all IMO it is a question of personal preference, not of quality.

This goes even more for the other NSR features. There is some positive aspects to say e.g. about decambered noses, and for most of us these benefits may outweigh the downsides. But I believe that there are riders who learn faster on classic shapes because they need the guidance a classic noseshape offers. And there will be riders who don't like decambered tails because they prefer the snappiness of the classic tail.

I have ridden 5 different NSR boards last year, and none of these boards I would describe as "easy to ride".

Buell, you made positive experience with NSR and therefore you like it . No problem with that. I just bought an NSR board myself. But are you sure that Helvetico is the same type of rider as you are? Or as I am?

edit: just seen that you've edited your post. I'm with you when you say there's no need to use an old or outdated board for learning. but I still doubt that titanal and decambered solves all our problems just because its titanal and decambered. and i doubt that wider and softer board are always the right choice for the beginner.

yes, the original post was a bit over the top so I edited it. I was hoping you had not quoted it. ;)

I have ridden a decent number of metal boards with decamber and a decent number of metal boards without decamber as well as quite a few boards that were built before metal construction existed for freecarvers.

Yes, I have found all of the metal and decambered boards I have ridden to be more pleasant to ride than the just metal boards or the older nose shape fiberglass boards. I do not expect that everyone will have the same experience though and it sounds like you have not.

Last year, I let 4 riders (one fairly skilled and the rest beginners that have been riding for a little while) try my Coiler 165. All four of them bought one just like it immediately. They were all previously on fiberglass boards with non decambered noses. This year I am on a couple of Kesslers which demand much more rider input and I doubt are nearly as beginner friendly. Hopefully I can have the same guys who bought the Coilers tell me what they think of the Kesslers this season.

You could definitely be correct that Helvetico may not like that type of board. However, based on other's opinions of that type of board, I expect he will. In the end though, it is only my opinion and I am always amazed at the variety of equipment that different riders enjoy.

Edit to add: I do know that some of the new boards have been built with too soft (longitudinally and particularly torsionally) noses. I have not ridden any of these boards and if I had, I doubt I would have had a positive experience.

Buell

[Buell]

Just because I stayed at your house doesn't mean I will ride with you!

:D

See if I ever give you a place to stay again. You can just sleep in the driveway on your motorcycle. :p

[frunobulax]

yes, the original post was a bit over the top so I edited it. I was hoping you had not quoted it. ;)

I have ridden a decent number of metal boards with decamber and a decent number of metal boards without decamber as well as quite a few boards that were built before metal construction existed for freecarvers.

Yes, I have found all of the metal and decambered boards I have ridden to be more pleasant to ride than the just metal boards or the older nose shape fiberglass boards. I do not expect that everyone will have the same experience though and it sounds like you have not.

Last year, I let 4 riders (one fairly skilled and the rest beginners that have been riding for a little while) try my Coiler 165. All four of them bought one just like it immediately. They were all previously on fiberglass boards with non decambered noses. This year I am on a couple of Kesslers which demand much more rider input and I doubt are nearly as beginner friendly. Hopefully I can have the same guys who bought the Coilers tell me what they think of the Kesslers this season.

You could definitely be correct that Helvetico may not like that type of board. However, based on other's opinions of that type of board, I expect he will. In the end though, it is only my opinion and I am always amazed at the variety of equipment that different riders enjoy.

Edit to add: I do know that some of the new boards have been built with too soft (longitudinally and particularly torsionally) noses. I have not ridden any of these boards and if I had, I doubt I would have had a positive experience.

Buell

Now we're pretty much on the same page. May I add that in Europe there's still not many Titanal-decambered freecarve boards on the market (but getting more nearly every day) so if you want to buy such a board here chances are high that you will end up with a GS raceboard. And I would only reluctantly suggest a GS raceboard to a carving beginner.

And yes, I made some ambivalent experience with soft nosed partially decambered boards. Great grip on ice, but also somewhat awe-inspiring when it comes to going fast on softer snow.

Maybe it's all a matter of personal experience.

[philw]

...

Don't confuse shape and construction. Shapes are awesome and I have tried somewhere here in the past to present the mathematical benefits of the Klothoid (clothoid) shape but we seem to be stuck on traditional radius.

...

Wait until you get on the real McCoy.

Clothoid seems like an obvious candidate for a board radius. Any idea why it took so long, if it's used in skis etc?

How do you mean "stuck on traditional" - I thought all Kesslers used clothoid; not sure what the others use - haven't heard anyone boast about "elliptical" sidecuts for a while.

Here's the Kessler patent.

[pogokoenig]

Pogokoenig, how're the Viri treating you? Let me see you back on the earlier models and tell me they beat the pants off the Evo III. You and I know you will be lying.

Lying? Never! Only when it is really necessary:o

I must confess, I ordered my first Evo III (UFC narrow) recently. You got me. It is a modern shape, camembert-nose, metal, carbon and all the nice stuff in it.

But - and here is the point - I am not of meagre talent. I am an awesome kick-ass rider.

You are right. Evo III construction and the new shapes seem to be a huge progression in the Virus portfolio. However, would I recommend such a board to a carving-beginner? No. To an enthusiastic carver being on the step to a higher level? Probably.

Please guys get me right. I am big fan of nice equipment and spend a lot of money on it. But is there really anyone here trying to tell me that you cannot have a great ride on a decent solid and forgiving freecarving board. You can ride any slope with these toys, you can go into powder and whatnot.

[Buell]

Frunobulax looks like like you are coming around to Buell's points.

I have also come around to his points. It was a very good conversation.

[frunobulax]

@buell: same to you!

Hey Eric.. got a headache today?

Concerning your and pogokoenig's ass.. maybe I will spare the time and kick both of them simultaneously this winter.

@bola: I remember that time when the first carving skis came out.. that was a revolution. I tested them and then I sent my whole family to the store to buy new skis. Including my old mother.

Carving skis were at that time an improvement for everyone (Nevermind that my mum had some typical carving-ski-beginner-crashes which left some ugly bruises in her face.. she was not very happy with me after that).

But evidently not every technical innovation is of the same quality. Think of the Swingbo, the monoski, the rotary engine (in which I believe until today), the zeppelin, the personal helicopter and non-alcoholic beer...

NSR is IMO not like the carving ski revolution. As you're pointing out, there are different aspects of NSR one has to set apart. Some are good for everyone, some may only be an improvement for special target groups.

As for the new progressive SCR shapes.. yes they are amazing. But I haven't made the experience that they are good for the beginner since they make turns wider and faster when you shift your weight rearwards (which a beginner tends to do when he gets uncomfortable with increasing speed) and which get snappy and quickly turning if you shift your weight to the front, e.g. on a bump in soft snow, which can lead to painful crashes.

So I bought a board with progressive SCR because I liked the additional fun and thought I could cope with the additional challenges. But would I recommend doing the same for the medium rider? Guess not..

[BlueB]

A carving begginer I'd rather see on a radial scr and old, but shallow, camber shape, but softish board. That way the boards locks in a very positive shape of the turn, so the rider can focus on balancing the turn forces, rather then fighting the turn shape changes and early release...

Next step up should be small to medium nose decamber and metal.

Old Prior metal tops are just about ideal to learn carving.

My 0.02 CAD

[Buell]

That way the boards locks in a very positive shape of the turn, so the rider can focus on balancing the turn forces, rather then fighting the turn shape changes and early release...

The tapered, decambered metal boards (the well designed ones ;)) are incredibly easy to ride. Turn initiation and locking back into a carve after skidding are markedly improved from older board designs.

I have not experienced "fighting the turn shape changes."

The idea that these boards release early from turns is based on rider technique that was needed for older boards. Older boards often required the rider to pressure the nose to initiate a turn, sometimes aggressively. The new designs initiate much easier and respond poorly to pressuring the nose too much. Most often, the tail will pop out of the turn.

They want to be ridden much more centered and have some pressure maintained on the tail at the end of the turn. Ridden this way, the board will go where ever I want and hold or release a turn when I tell it to.

[Gossamer]

Don't wanna get all Rodney King here, but I will. I love all the input here, when I wanted to get into carving 9 yrs. ago I came here to learn and I did. It is difficult to separate the good from the not so good. (political correctness) I went back and looked and noticed that Helvetico (user whom started this thread) only replied once since the start of this thread. With more people interested in alpine each day maybe we can spend more time offering useful information and less time picking each others comments apart. The cream does rise to the top and anyone that wants to put in the time to research what is said here can separate the good from the bad. And as I tell the kids on the hill: if you are not having fun, go home (or do something else other than boarding if your parents drove) Helvitico I hope the family doesn't mind the long drive to Soelden. Hang loose, live long and prosper and pray for snow. Look for me at Powder Mountain, Kipp

[Gossamer]

Please ignore my previous post, I've been drinking.

Mormons doing 151 Rum

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[Corey]

With more people interested in alpine each day maybe we can spend more time offering useful information and less time picking each others comments apart. The cream does rise to the top and anyone that wants to put in the time to research what is said here can separate the good from the bad. And as I tell the kids on the hill: if you are not having fun, go home (or do something else other than boarding if your parents drove)

:biggthump

Well said.

[BlueB]

The tapered, decambered metal boards (the well designed ones ;)) are incredibly easy to ride. Turn initiation and locking back into a carve after skidding are markedly improved from older board designs.

I have not experienced "fighting the turn shape changes."

The idea that these boards release early from turns is based on rider technique that was needed for older boards. Older boards often required the rider to pressure the nose to initiate a turn, sometimes aggressively. The new designs initiate much easier and respond poorly to pressuring the nose too much. Most often, the tail will pop out of the turn.

They want to be ridden much more centered and have some pressure maintained on the tail at the end of the turn. Ridden this way, the board will go where ever I want and hold or release a turn when I tell it to.

I've ridden lots of well designed, modern boards. I offered what works the best for a begginer, from my experience.

Variable SCR and big tapers offer another dimension to carving, which is not necesserilly needed or wanted for a begginer. Fighting the changing radius occurs when you screw up the boddy position. Maybe you never do it, but I doo. Beginners do it all the time. When teaching someone to carve, I want the board to track nice round predictable turn, indespite of how not 100% the technique was... For advanced carver, VSR is probbably better, but not necesserilly for all applications.

Oh, and yes, moder boards DO release easier, which can translate into earlier, then the old boards. They are simply designed to do so, due to their race inspired background.

[Buell]

I've ridden lots of well designed, modern boards. I offered what works the best for a begginer, from my experience.

Variable SCR and big tapers offer another dimension to carving, which is not necesserilly needed or wanted for a begginer. Fighting the changing radius occurs when you screw up the boddy position. Maybe you never do it, but I doo. Beginners do it all the time. When teaching someone to carve, I want the board to track nice round predictable turn, indespite of how not 100% the technique was... For advanced carver, VSR is probbably better, but not necesserilly for all applications.

Oh, and yes, moder boards DO release easier, which can translate into earlier, then the old boards. They are simply designed to do so, due to their race inspired background.

When I started, I had (aside from the forgiving Prior 4WD) a few different zero taper glass boards. When I was out of position on those things (often at the time), they would sometimes just stay locked in a carve that I could not get out of. Guess the easy release of the tapered shapes just sounds like a design that would have scared me way less! ;)

I would have loved to have started on the custom Coiler I had last season. It had loads of taper with VSR and Bruces AM flex (softer middle and a stiffer nose?). Not the best at high speed (compared to my Kessler with very similar dimensions), but very forgiving and easy to ride at lower to moderate speeds.

[Guest]

When I started, I had (aside from the forgiving Prior 4WD) a few different zero taper glass boards. When I was out of position on those things (often at the time), they would sometimes just stay locked in a carve that I could not get out of. Guess the easy release of the tapered shapes just sounds like a design that would have scared me way less! ;)

I would have loved to have started on the custom Coiler I had last season. It had loads of taper with VSR and Bruces AM flex (softer middle and a stiffer nose?). Not the best at high speed (compared to my Kessler with very similar dimensions), but very forgiving and easy to ride at lower to moderate speeds.

I'll second that. 1st board was an older Proton. Couldn't get out of a turn to save my life.

[Helvetico]

So I'll make it back to Sports 2000 or whatever it was called in Soelden and try what they've got. It'll save me the trouble of having to work out all the technical minutiae regarding board construction.

I'm not THAT bad a rider. On hardboots I pass quite a few skiers and practically all snowboarders. I can carve at will on easy/intermediate slopes and can negotiate my way down black slopes effectively, if not carvingly. I can even handle powder pretty well on my longboard.

Limitations? How about zero explosive power, as in maybe a foot of vertical leap. Middle age. Average sense of balance and coordination.

In my original post I was essentially bitching about the Vantage's rounded and uplifted tail, which, to my untechnical mind, seems like it won't lock into the last part of turns. It also seems a little less snappy than it could be. Granted, it's designed as an all-rounder, so it's really a bundle of terrain-handling compromises.

[queequeg]

When I started, I had (aside from the forgiving Prior 4WD) a few different zero taper glass boards. When I was out of position on those things (often at the time), they would sometimes just stay locked in a carve that I could not get out of. Guess the easy release of the tapered shapes just sounds like a design that would have scared me way less! ;)

I would have loved to have started on the custom Coiler I had last season. It had loads of taper with VSR and Bruces AM flex (softer middle and a stiffer nose?). Not the best at high speed (compared to my Kessler with very similar dimensions), but very forgiving and easy to ride at lower to moderate speeds.

Ditto that. While I was getting back into carving after a few years of not riding, I was on an older glass donek with no taper. I loved riding this board but it was not hard to get locked into a turn and once or twice I got locked in close to the edge of a trail and actually flew out into the woods - luckily I was never injured. For that reason, I think I would always recommend new school shapes for a new carver.

[pogokoenig]

I got a nice Bentley at home with a chauffeur.

Since I ride this combination driving a car is much less stress and more fun. Should have started with that in driving school already.