Flexing your boots

[carvedog]

After watching some of the awesome late season vids and thinking about this a bit I am seeing a few riders that seem like they are not getting any flex at all out of their boots.

The rippingest riders I am seeing are getting tons of flex out of their boots and it's not just the clydesdale class guys who are flexing.

How feel you about where you are with this?

During my very few days out this late winter and early spring I was playing with the idea of closing the angle ( of bottom of foot to lower leg ) and surprisingly it seemed like I was doing this more at the very early part of the heelside turn the most.

It seems like I was "fixing" that angle more on toeside and using the knees.

But then again at the very early part of the toeside turn ( coming off of heelside ) I would close that angle to help initiate turns.

Also played with a it lot on cat tracks ( I was riding with my five year old on the Big hill and taking some easy way down) and it sure seemed to be part of why I am very comfortable on cat tracks.

Just wanted to share my late season thoughts.

[Corey]

Ever see Joerg from PureBoarding's crazy legs demo? He did that during one of the clinics at SES, he's got a TON of flex in his boots in all directions.

I move around quite a bit when I'm on my game, but it's never a conscious movement while it's happening. I had tiny red plastic flecks all over my pants and boot liners after a day of riding from the red tongues in my 07 Deeluxe 700T boots. The one ankle strap t-nut rubbed on the tongue.

[heroshmero]

I'm using Head SP boots with stock liners and black tongues but I guess I'm in the "clydesdale" class as I weight almost 250 lbs. I get plenty of flex. Sometimes it feels like the back boot flexes a little too much. I suppose at some point I will get some new liners that will help stiffen the boots up a bit.

[Erik J]

I learned a bit about my boots this season as well.

Used to ride AF600 w thermos, the I dropped a shell size ad went to Deeluxe Suzukas. Fit is now WAY better but now my boots feel mushy-er. I upgraded my liners to powerwraps and that helped a lot. Now my yellow BTS springs feel like marshmallows.

Dropping my angles down a little bit seemed to be the biggest difference in my setup. Went from 69ish to 59ish. Below 57ish, I got a LOT more flex out of my boots than I wanted. I felt that I would want red BTS springs and stiffer liners at those angles.

I really liked the fore and aft flex of my old setup paired with the stiff lateral flex. I'm working on liking my new setup.

Long story short, I like boot flex fore and aft but not side to side (so far). I would like to try sidewiders though.

[two_ravens]

I've had many lightweight riders ask how I can use TD2's - as most small folk seem to feel they are too stiff. I'm guessing that it's because I have so much flex in my boots (Raichle 124's, BTS yellow springs.) I have noticed that my boots are much softer in warm spring temps though and I started to get ankle/lower leg injury issues late season, so I might be looking for something with a bit more support for next spring. However, for my normal riding conditions (about -15 to +15 deg F) my boots are perfect - lots of flex, but enough support to keep me out of trouble!

p.s. Not claiming in any way that I rip (except compared to my own riding at the beginning of the season.) Just saying that my boots are flexy and I do try to think about ankle flex when I ride - it seems to help.

[Beckmann AG]

Don't want much, don't need much, don't have much. On the front boot, just tongue compression. Rigid backwards. On the rear foot, just a bit more forward, also rigid backwards.

Medially/laterally, maybe 5mm at each boot cuff.

Articulation of the foot/ankle required for turn initiation/completion should be primarily inversion/eversion. Neither requires much dorsi/plantar flexion.

I've had many lightweight riders ask how I can use TD2's - as most small folk seem to feel they are too stiff. I'm guessing that it's because I have so much flex in my boots

Perhaps you are the 'better' rider?

Judging by your two most recent avatar photos, there is the distinct possibility that your bindings are set up in a respectable manner, and that your movements are proportional to the task at hand. When those criteria are met, 'stiff' is an asset, not a liability.

Rider weight notwithstanding, calling the TD2 'stiff' is simply amusing.

Fit is now WAY better but now my boots feel mushy-er

A boot in the correct anatomical dimensions will often feel softer than the equivalent boot of the wrong size, for no other reason than the contours of the boot match the contours of your body, and they 'move' more as a unit. In your case, the shell plastic may also be different.

[b0ardski]

I use old 124s with thermoflex for powder 'cause that combo flexes like a stiff softy setup on wider freeride boards. I'll put ski race boot liners in the 124s for all mountain and most carve days. For the 18 wide GS boards I use blax (head) with stiff liners which gives me a lot more lateral stiffness with 60+ angles.

[Zone]

Personal preference for me, as softer feels more surfy, so take my ideas with a grain of salt.

I like my boots flexy fore and aft and rigid sideways.

I use the Swoard forum/site recommendations for spring set up with the Northwave boots, and adapted it to my 130lbs, ie small original soft spring cut up (1/3) and very soft spring (bought separately) for the remaining 2/3.

I also had to put a pair of old Raichle tongues in (bought from Bomberonline) because below -10C, the Northwaves tongues were very rigid and I could not bend the boots. This way, my boots flex is temperature independent and relies only on spring characteristics.

[patmoore]

I need a lot of forward flex. When I switched from Raichle 324s to Head Stratos Pros I couldn't get enough forward flex for GS racing. Cutting the plastic (a fellow BOL member was kind enough to do the modification for me) and switching to the yellow tongue did the trick.

At the NASTAR Nationals this year I noticed Ron Shepard racing in stiff Nordica ski boots. He's an amazing racer. I've tried racing my board in Lange World Cup 120s (also cut to increase forward flex) and I can barely turn them.

At my age (63), weight (170 lb) and ability level I need a lot of forward flex.

I'm getting a little off topic here but would appreciate some guidance. I need to replace the ancient Technica Icons I've used for my pacesetting duties on Okemo's NASTAR course. I'd like to find a pair of boots that will allow me to set the pace on skis and then hop on my board without changing boots. I've been looking at the Dalbello Krypton Cross with the softer tongue. I'm wondering if it will give me too much forward flex on skis and/or not enough on my board. Your thoughts?

[valsam]

After riding for 13 years in burton reactors and winds last year i picked up a pair of shadows (bought them very cheap!)and thought that they could not compare in any way to the stiffer winds and reactors but to my surprise the shadows suited me better then my previous boots with there flexier feel and lateral flex!

[BlueB]

I came from the ski background and never quite adjusted to the propper snowboard boots... Forward softness just killed me at first, but later I realised it is actually the latteral flex that I disliked a lot. I want my side to side motion to come from the binding under, not from the boot. When my ankles start flexing at high loads in 2 axis, I'm always on a verge of catastrophy.

Raichle/Deeluxe just have wrong shape for my feet and I always have terrible heel lift and never liked the flex pattern. UPZs fit me well and I think I could make them work, yet I do not want to deal with super short footpeint (I've got small feet) and the rear bail slot tucked way under the heel. I found my holly grail in Dalbello CRX/Carvex boots, basically Head Stratos with ski DIN blocks, probably made of stiffer plastic.

While I can freecarve on good snow with super stiff boots and like it, I constantly worked on softening my boots over the years. Freeride just doesn't work that well in super stiff boots. So, my Dalbellos are now fitted with blue BTS and undergone all internal cutting mods sugested in various HSP treads. Result is the boot that's stiff latterally (yet it can twist around cuff axis a bit), but forward flex can be adjusted in many ways.

Generrally, I preloaded the BTS to a medium setting and I play with the buckles to add or restrain the flex. For aggressive crving and skiing with my baby son I tighten to the point that I have to lean into the cuffs to flex the boots. For freeriding, I loosen enough that I can flex the boots a tiny bit by movement of the ankle. I guess for aggressive skiing I would have to crank up the BTS a bit, too.

[energyrail]

well I would say the amount of flex depends on the temp.

days at -20celsius they don't move at all. In the spring at +5 they flex quite a bit. that is with 08 upz rtr

[Beckmann AG]

I'm getting a little off topic here but would appreciate some guidance. I need to replace the ancient Technica Icons I've used for my pacesetting duties on Okemo's NASTAR course. I'd like to find a pair of boots that will allow me to set the pace on skis and then hop on my board without changing boots. I've been looking at the Dalbello Krypton Cross with the softer tongue. I'm wondering if it will give me too much forward flex on skis and/or not enough on my board. Your thoughts?

Boots have a significant impact on performance, be it on skis or snowboards, so I would say that your question is very much on topic.

The perceived need for flex in ski boots can be traced back to three geometric issues: too little or too much forward lean, too much forward angle on the bootboard, or ineffective contact angle between the ski and snow when your bones have settled under load. (To say nothing of funky technique, but that is often related to the first three.)

If the boot geometry is not appropriate for your skeletal system, your 'default' location, (tip to tail), on the ski will not be effective, and you will need the additional flex to find a 'better' place to stand. Similarly, if your bones in compression do not allow you to engage the ski in a productive manner, you will need additional flex in the boots to allow greater articulation at the knee, which, in turn, allows for more rotation at the hip, which then permits greater attenuation of edge angle.

Of course, then you have no suspension system, but that is another story.

So too the obvious parallels to hardbooting...

I have no first hand experience with the Dalbello, though I skied on the original Raichle Flexon 5 and its progeny. If you recall, there was a time when the Flexon was used to great effect in the speed events on the World Cup, where snowfeel and glide are of great importance. I have no idea what your Nastar course looks like, but many of those courses favor glide over rapid, 'high load' direction changes. That said, the Krypton may work well, and the softer tongue will present you with the opportunity to develop a better sense of touch. I.e., with less lever at the front, you will become more effective at skiing off the sole of the foot.

I have altered the heel height in many an Icon. The original boot board angle is so far out of the ballpark, there isn't even a game on the schedule. In order for each client to be 'balanced', I had to cut down the heel height by at least 3/8" in every case.

I do not know if the zepper in the Krypton is easy to alter. Given that your Langes have a boot board angle of between 4.5 and 5 degrees, I would put the Krypton on one foot, the WC 150 on the other, and see how they compare.

If you are concerned about the Krypton being too soft for skiing, you may want to consider finding a better ski to match. If Nastar does not have restrictions on ski length/geometry, you would do well to look into a non-FIS womens GS from Rossignol, or the longer length Jr. GS skis from Fischer or Atomic.

Under adult feet, these skis favor 'touch' over 'impact', will activate at lower speeds, and encourage glide. Their construction is sufficiently robust to permit use at speed, so long as you ski with finesse.

[Zone]

well I would say the amount of flex depends on the temp.

days at -20celsius they don't move at all. In the spring at +5 they flex quite a bit. that is with 08 upz rtr

Hence replacing the tongue with the old Raichle tongue which stays soft even at very low temp. The springs are not affected by 10 to -20C temp. (at least not perceivable to me).

[patmoore]

Boots have a significant impact on performance, be it on skis or snowboards, so I would say that your question is very much on topic.

The perceived need for flex in ski boots can be traced back to three geometric issues: too little or too much forward lean, too much forward angle on the bootboard, or ineffective contact angle between the ski and snow when your bones have settled under load. (To say nothing of funky technique, but that is often related to the first three.)

If the boot geometry is not appropriate for your skeletal system, your 'default' location, (tip to tail), on the ski will not be effective, and you will need the additional flex to find a 'better' place to stand. Similarly, if your bones in compression do not allow you to engage the ski in a productive manner, you will need additional flex in the boots to allow greater articulation at the knee, which, in turn, allows for more rotation at the hip, which then permits greater attenuation of edge angle.

Of course, then you have no suspension system, but that is another story.

So too the obvious parallels to hardbooting...

I have no first hand experience with the Dalbello, though I skied on the original Raichle Flexon 5 and its progeny. If you recall, there was a time when the Flexon was used to great effect in the speed events on the World Cup, where snowfeel and glide are of great importance. I have no idea what your Nastar course looks like, but many of those courses favor glide over rapid, 'high load' direction changes. That said, the Krypton may work well, and the softer tongue will present you with the opportunity to develop a better sense of touch. I.e., with less lever at the front, you will become more effective at skiing off the sole of the foot.

I have altered the heel height in many an Icon. The original boot board angle is so far out of the ballpark, there isn't even a game on the schedule. In order for each client to be 'balanced', I had to cut down the heel height by at least 3/8" in every case.

I do not know if the zepper in the Krypton is easy to alter. Given that your Langes have a boot board angle of between 4.5 and 5 degrees, I would put the Krypton on one foot, the WC 150 on the other, and see how they compare.

If you are concerned about the Krypton being too soft for skiing, you may want to consider finding a better ski to match. If Nastar does not have restrictions on ski length/geometry, you would do well to look into a non-FIS womens GS from Rossignol, or the longer length Jr. GS skis from Fischer or Atomic.

Under adult feet, these skis favor 'touch' over 'impact', will activate at lower speeds, and encourage glide. Their construction is sufficiently robust to permit use at speed, so long as you ski with finesse.

Thank you for the very detailed assessment!

For skiing I use non-FIS cheater skis, most recently the Fischer Progressor 9+. Okemo's NASTAR course is typical with a gentle to moderate pitch. There isn't enough width for me to make it turny unless I set a single course. On most weekends I'll set one course with ski gates and one with snowboard gates.

My Lange WC 120 right boot has been extensively modified to compensate for a severe inward bending of the right knee resulting from three surgeries. I'd like to change the ramp angle but don't think there's enough material left to do much.

Speaking of knees, I tore my left ACL while pacesetting in early February. I was able to race at the Nationals in Winter Park last month with a brace but I'm unable to bend either knee (the right one is bone on bone). I just met with the knee doctor to schedule surgery on the left one on June 22nd. I showed him the shots below and told him I'm the old guy on the left and I need to be able to look like the guys on the right. :o

Once that surgery's over I'll probably need to plane the left boot!

We may have met before. Were you instructing at Sugarloaf about ten years ago? I remember a hardbooter who could carve beautifully while riding switch. He had two different colored boots as I recall.

[Beckmann AG]

You're welcome.

Once that surgery's over I'll probably need to plane the left boot!

We may have met before. Were you instructing at Sugarloaf about ten years ago? I remember a hardbooter who could carve beautifully while riding switch. He had two different colored boots as I recall.

So are you doing a full replacement? One of my cohorts split off one side of his tibial plateau, got tired of dealing with the pain, and finally replaced the joint. This is his second full season on it, and he's very happy with the outcome. Incidentally, he's skiing on a non-FIS women's ski; the logical outgrowth of a research project he and I ran this winter.

I have been known to shun fashion in favor of function in the boot department, so that was probably me. And I have been teaching here since 1990.

When you planed your boot, did you alter the internal boot board, or just the sole? A lot of people add a thicker riser plate under the toe to negate an aggressive ramp. This is generally not as effective as lowering the heel internally, for a number of reasons.

Anyway, good luck with the surgery, rehab, et al, and let me know if you have any other questions.

[Miltie]

Yo Carvedog, Nice Poll.

Had a heck of time getting my 08-09 Track 700Ts dialed in for the last 2 seasons. Felt like they had way too much forward flex. Upgraded the liners and moved from blue BTS springs to reds on top (I weigh 160). Finally at a point where I am happy. Still have some ankle movement when I want but have the foward stiffness I like.

[Surf Quebec]

I took the PSR clinic at ECES, he told me I was fighting with my boots more than with my board...

I then ride HSP with blue springs.

I've also compared the flex of my HSP with other HSP owners, I was the lightest rider (162 pounds) with the less flexible boots.

I've changed my springs for the yellow ones and did alter the boots a bit, I now have a lot more movement available.

I did ride once in soft snow conditions, I was able to get lower .

I can't wait to test the new flex on the usual hardpack I'm used to, unfortunately it won't be before next december.