Soft Bindings For Freecarving

[eajracing]

On softies I follow the same rule as hardboots. Let the board determine the angles by lining up the toe and heel with the edges of the board. In powder, there is a little leeway but if you want to carve when you hit the soft powder day groom, you better have your toe and heel with the edge of the edges of the board (and that is not always enough to avoid boot out).

Ditto.

I usually run a about a 20-30F and the rear changes according to conditions. Hard groom (and for whatever reason I dont have my hard boots on) its centered and about a +10R. As conditions get windswept/choppy, or I'm running trees i'll drop the angle down as it's more important (to me) to get the board around, and carving becomes secondary to not hitting something. This however bears in mind the rule #1 - no overhang so anything under +6 to -6 is impossible for me on my board (176 prior MFR). I've found myself running about a -6R all the way back on the inserts when i'm running cats/trees/etc. I've got so comfortable with it, I've even been riding that set up back in ON and can carve pretty well on it, run BX etc. If I want to carve, I get the right tool for the job, and that always has hard boots mounted on it. I can ride plates in the glades at revy... but not nearly as much fun as the soft set up on big pillow lines.

I'd love to try a dual. or an eliminator. or a kessler bx. or a donek sabre.... and i'd do so if cash flow allowed or opportunities presented themselves. the 'niche' they seem to target has me as a well planted resident.

[nils]

Johnasmo'

I am confused however by Nils comment that early morning corduroy is outside the dual brief. ..Translation distortion perhaps?

...

How critical is length for freeride at the extremes of the recommended rider weight range? Nils points to width as the limiting factor; but that's with hardboots and bigger angles. With softboots and lower angles, is length just as restrictive re' manoeverability when not carving? ...or can the longitudinal flex reduce this?

Ahh hehe no translation distortion: its just that when its morning corduroy, i rather destroy it with an Extremecarver with much more efficiency..its still great fun on the Dual, but you better use F1 car on F1 tracks than a Lancer Evo X right?

As for length, check the tables: you can see the sizes overlap rider height or weight by some: I can use both the 175 and 168 really, ( am 6'3 / 80 kilos/28,5 feet).. its up to you to decide if you want the bigger or smaller adapted size: length will give stability at speeds and more edge, shortness will give manoeuvrability, shall it be on softboots or hardboots..its also true in powder.

Nils

[Zone]

The problem I see with the above 3rd strap system is although it would add lateral stiffness, it would also a major detriment to forward flex. You'd lose the ability to really bend your ankle and coil up before the turn, esp. if you're thinking about doing EC.

Would a strap in figure of 8, with the top and bottom of the 8 firmly attached, and the crossing happening between the boot and the back help? You'd add lateral restriction of movement, yet still have some flex due to the figure of 8.

I've got yet to try high angles with my softies and I'm hoping being a lightweight, lateral flex is not too much of an issue.

[bobdea]

What Sucks?

Nonsense...I have forward flex ? and wonderful lateral flex.

Yea, years ago the tabs would break from the chair...have not broken

anything since I bolted highbacks however...

Have changed top strap now to leather for last two seasons...even better!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdsIGfHPHcc

is the rear locked out with a bolt?

it will break eventually, particularly from a chair on it.

if the binding is locked out and you have a 3rd strap you have next to no travel any that you do have is a function of boot material compression and the bindings deforming. I have ridden more than one 3 strapper and if the back is locked it sucks. if the back is not locked it's somewhat pointless to have a 3rd strap at all.

in 1992 when softboots were terrible and there were no good 2 strap binding available this had some merit but now it's a relic and you're promoting it. do you still ride with fins/skegs? what about baseless bindings? I have a line on some elfgens if you're interested or perhaps a sweet crazy banana.

if it were superior in any way someone would make them, the truth is they are a crutch for either bad set up, weak ankles or people who refuse to ride hardboots but want to emulate them in a poor manner.

your posts speak mostly on inexperience with modern hardboots but you push and push this agenda of yours that insists on pushing otherwise good products out of the range they are designed for and into an area of products that are actually made for said purpose and work better. because you're close minded and refuse move out of the 90s when it's 2010.

the reason you need a 3rd strap is because you're not using your gear the way it was meant to function. if you set it up properly or bought something that fit what you want to do in the first place you'd not have to mad anything.

no one here suggests riding duck with hard boots here, that about equates with what you're promoting..... it's not what they were meant to do and they don't do it well.

[bobdea]

and I just watched your youtube videos.

how old are you?

[docrob]

Love it! ..the american attitude, the volume/ outspeak ! Should have married mine in '83 instead of womanising in europe! She's just the same. Can't wait to move over.

lots of sucking going on here though! Maybe I'll get some on Valentines.

Nils, I know the table (by heart!). I see it in my sleep! I am 75 kg..on the edge for 175 dual, but 28.5 boots (32outside)..they want me to buy the 175!

Too stiff for me, the 175?

What are the smallest angles you can achieve on the 175 with your 28.5 softboots? In 5 words, how can you turn that board in a 5-6m radius ? You mean at speed, or slow?

[docrob]

Dave; thanks for the offer. When did Bomber (?) first make those bindings? Are those in the pic from that year or a later year with mods?

Bobdea, you mentioned the Catek (F2?) earlier, Can you rank a few 2 strap bindings in order of what you see as suitability here ?

[bobdea]

Dave; thanks for the offer. When did Bomber (?) first make those bindings? Are those in the pic from that year or a later year with mods?

Bobdea, you mentioned the Catek (F2?) earlier, Can you rank a few 2 strap bindings in order of what you see as suitability here ?

catek fr2s I like, lots of binding though almost overkill, most high end bindings these days will do the trick ride, burton, nidecker, volkl, rome and many others make decent bindings. a good boot is essential here too. I like burton ions and drivers but other like ride, DC, 32 and salomon make boots great riders swear by.

those bindings dave posted are burton custom freerides. from 1997 or 1998, they made them for two years and were the last 3 strappers to be sold by any company AFAIK. you don't want them only thing they will do is hold you back. 3 strap bindings are akin to the rear entry ski boot, relics.

you can get a really nice set of boots for 250 US retail price and the same goes for bindings. as the price goes there's some really nice stuff but the stuff from the last few years has been getting so much better than older softboots you can get a new 2009 $175 boot that works as well as well as a $300 boot from 2002.

best advice you can get is buy a good high end boot and binding and pair it with a board that's wide enough that you don't have to ride above 35 or so degree angles. stuff does not need to be as stiff as people here seem to think. even me being 260 LB riding a 187 board was thinking that catek fr2s or nidecker 900s were on the stiff side when I was doing anything but riding groom. for riding in the woods a softer binding is ideal. burton p1s or cartels do it well without braking the bank.

[docrob]

I'll check those boots out Bobdea. Mine are good boots; but not good enough I think.

I tried to contact Catek a few times re' ordering.. for a week now without success. I always check it will work first; with uk billing and US shipping address, as I have waited weeks for deliveries that never showed from some US companies. Catek don't reply to emails or answer the phone, and their forum isn't accepting registration!

Someone on here was saying they had breakages on F2.

Are Catek really up to speed, or are they just complacent / not in need of sales?

The only store I found who'd sell them (Donek) have some archaic and laborious system requiring faxed photocopies of credit card and so on.

Does anyone know anywhere in the US I can phone right now and get those Catek bindings ordered? I only have a few days.

[docrob]

OK; Catek replied.

[bobdea]

if you just can't wait call bola at all board sport 303.415.1600

[Dave ESPI]

Docrob, a lot of the difficulty in understanding about 3 straps versus 2 strap bindings is a lot of how you ride in technique.

I for one love my 3 straps as do some others, and clearly there are those who say they suck.

I ran the gauntlet with boots, and bindings, new versus old technology, and found that the newer stiff boots really did not help my style, and even when I tried adjusting and re adapting technique, I was actualy held back by some of the "newer" gear and experienced a good bit of knee and ankle pain in soft boots. For the record, I have full access to all the newest gear and also hold love for the older stuff.

All I can say is Experiment, and find what suits you best. There are no rules with this snowboarding other than to have fun and enjoy it.

We can go around and around about locking pins, and highbacks getting busted by chairs, and flex yada yada yada....

While you are at it, feel free to completely remove the highback and ride the board without one for a few days and get a real feel for what its like to not be handicapped with range of motion restrictions :rolleyes: but I digress.

Same board, same rider, same boots, same style... different bindings.... Personaly, I feel better in the 3 straps and have a SOLID connection feel and don't want the highback moving on me, so to each their own.

[nils]

Nils, I know the table (by heart!). I see it in my sleep! I am 75 kg..on the edge for 175 dual, but 28.5 boots (32outside)..they want me to buy the 175!

Too stiff for me, the 175?

What are the smallest angles you can achieve on the 175 with your 28.5 softboots? In 5 words, how can you turn that board in a 5-6m radius ? You mean at speed, or slow?

It all depends on what bindings you will ride! and what style of riding you will achieve on that particular day!.

The 175 is not too stiff, if you are not a midget ;) you will be able to turn in easy if you are over 180cm. If the tables say you are right on spot for the 168, then its all about the settings and preferences:

1. Do i want to ride duck stance / softboots and do fakie, tricks?

2. do i want to ride hardboots hard on piste with occasionnal tricks, small jumps, powder ...

3. settings will of course be very different, on the same board, for such a different kind of riding.

Of course 27cm is not enough for a 0° setting: you would need at least a 32-33cm board to be able to ride EC turns at 0°. My 28.5 mondo decided my angles, i started at the back foot, set it to 36-37°, found it would not overhang, then added 7-8° on the front.

Closing 360 ( almost, will try better in three weeks) is achieved in a violent turn not too fast with the right slope ( you need to find an up going part to relaunch the last part of the turn). Its not really too fast ( EC turns are not really fast). On my Extremecarver 175 i usually close them at around 9m ( theorical radius of the board is 13m), I estimate its about 5-6m on the Dual but i'll verify this soon.

N

[Dave ESPI]

Nils said: Of course 27cm is not enough for a 0° setting: you would need at least a 32-33cm board to be able to ride EC turns at 0°. My 28.5 mondo decided my angles, i started at the back foot, set it to 36-37°, found it would not overhang, then added 7-8° on the front.

I have to agree as I also am rocking the size 12.5 (~mondo 30) boots with this setting for that width as a baseline starting point with toes/heels on the edge or just under them.

I'm really looking forward to trying out the next generation of softboot boards @ SES next week. I'm very much leaning twards a SWOARD as my weapon of choice, but a SABRE or RAZOR may be more apre-pro for my particular wants and needs. I'm keeping an open mind. Its not always about the best, as it is with what makes you personaly ride your best and feel good all day long :)

[docrob]

Nils,

Softboots, Catek freeride pro.

Height 180 cm, wt 75kg, learning / progressing carver.

No fakie, flakie or flickie (no tricks)!.

Freeride/freecarve only.

175 or 168?

Jacques recommended 30/15 with risers on 168...but with 32 cm boots (outside) there will be bootout.

What's your opinion?

Don't worry; I won't come back later for revenge!

[docrob]

Estimate bootout dual with 28.5 mondo softboots (32 cm external)

168 model:

15 degrees=3.8cm

20 degrees = 1.0 cm

175model:

15 degrees = 2.8 cm

20 degrees = zero

[nils]

no clue :)

If i had the time i'll modelize it in autocad and see how it would be, alas i have no template of a softboot/binding combo in dxf of dwg...

I think you should try and see by experimentation rather than try to calculate things precisely: this topic clearly shows the need for a new generation of softboots able to take angles and do real power carving...Duck stance is not an option in my opinion when you need to really carve...from what it seems, the Catek freeride seems a very interesting binding, alas its a bit confidential distribution and i think its a boot/binding combo that should be developped for this new softboots with angles tendency.

N

[zoltan]

I'm a bit late to the party, but I've been very pleased with Ride's SPi bindings. They aluminum construction, so they're stiff and durable. The highbacks can be rotated enough for the 39,30 angles I run. The convertible toe strap is comfy and useful, and the ankle straps are comfortable and still have a lot of support.

That said, there are no cant or lift options with them, but it's fine with me as I even ride my plates flat.

[bobdea]

This thread was about SB carving with angles of 45 deg. or more...I offered a suggestion for a way to do this.

I ride 45 deg. F and B and have for more than 20 years with a booster strap or top strap, and I like the highback locked.

I ride 5 hrs. a day typically and will have gone over 365 days in the last three seasons...It has been a 25 year Love affair.

I have never suggested that anyone stop what they are doing and follow the Sailer...rather I have offered a different way

to SB Carve than what many here are familiar with... Calm down Bob, You do not need to Froth at the mouth over this...

Here some recent pics from last two weeks showing how much I love to ride the edge...

so, in other words you're set in your ways from 25 years ago, you don't care about performance just what you've been doing for 20 years and that's your argument for doing it. that it worked 25 years ago?

give a valid argument like about how there's softboot gear made for such a purpose.yes the original post was "does anyone have any good recommendations of soft boot compatible bindings to work with higher positive stance angles e.g. 60F, 45R ?" riding that type of angles on softboots is not a good idea, as a member wanting to actuall help someone on this forum I said so. no way around it. you come in pimping a home made version technology that was outdated 15 years ago acting like it's a valid answer what you're doing is holding back that person's riding experience. the fact that what you suggest to can't even be bought for more than a decade says volumes.So, you suggest goofball mods but IF YOU USED THEM IN THE MANNER THEY WERE INTENDED YOU'D NOT NEED TO MODIFY ANYTHING.

christ, everytime anyone says your setup is not the hottest thing since dayglo and koflachs we have to gather 'round and listen about how long you've been riding the same type of setup and how much you love it. that's the problem though you're close minded to anything from the last 20 years. if you were a skier you'd want leather boots and straight skis. we get it, you like having a attention getter on hill. there's a guy at sunday river who still goes out on wooden skis and bamboo poles over xmas vacation. he uses a similar argument, "well, they've worked for 40 years and I've been in love with these for 40 years"

for the record, every time you suggest this to someone I will explain why it's wrong.

just because you do it does not mean it's right.

had your response to the first post been posted on the AASI forums or any other forums there would not of been this much civil discourse people would of straight up called you a idiot for suggesting such a thing to a rider who does not know any better. in fact I challenge you to go pimp your suggestions and setup here http://www.psia.org/forum/category-view.asp?showall=true

[b0ardski]

Lace up boots don't have to be ridden duck, just like buckle boots don't have to be ridden at 50-65 degrees(unles it's 18 wide). I ride (softer) hardshells as low as 20r-30f on freeride/powder boards.

I rode 3strap burtons at 30r-45r back in the day and thought they worked great, then I discovered the comfort & convenience of AT/mountaineering boots. Less bulk on the board and ease of entry, binders & boots, so I gave up the hassle of laces & straps.

If all I rode was laces and didn't mind the bulk, I'd put a 3rd strap on some flows and laugh at bob as I carved away.

[Corey]

You guys are talking past each other.

Bob, say someone wanted/needed to run soft boots at 45 degrees, the reason why is in the poster's head and isn't up for debate. Would you agree that current equipment wouldn't work well? Wouldn't adding a 3rd strap help regain the loss of lateral support?

I personally wouldn't like the reduction of toe-heel flex over the hardboots I currently use, but SBS is having fun making turns so where is the big problem? He's very clearly stated that it's AN option, not THE ONLY option.

[Jack M]

softbootsailer, I forget and I don't feel like searching... have you ever tried hardboots? I think you would freakin' kill it in hardboots.

[bobdea]

You guys are talking past each other.

Bob, say someone wanted/needed to run soft boots at 45 degrees, the reason why is in the poster's head and isn't up for debate. Would you agree that current equipment wouldn't work well? Wouldn't adding a 3rd strap help regain the loss of lateral support?

I personally wouldn't like the reduction of toe-heel flex over the hardboots I currently use, but SBS is having fun making turns so where is the big problem? He's very clearly stated that it's AN option, not THE ONLY option.

adding a 3rd strap while it could be done is not smart not saying it can't be done. I outlined why it was a bad idea. it should not even be a consideration when someone is looking to buy new gear to encourage anything like that is a dis-service to the rider. it CAN be done at the expense of performance.

as far as boardski comments go, yeah, exactly, 15 years ago they worked.

a 3rd strap flows? nice, do that and tell me how that works out.

there's lots of things you don't HAVE to do waxing, sharpening or using bindings at all (noboarding is cool actually) but in putting a noboard mat on a kessler GS would be stupid and that's basically what's being suggested, way out of the intended range for said product.

just because there's a couple yahoos out there that like it does not mean it's a good idea.

[dano]

softbootsailer, I forget and I don't feel like searching... have you ever tried hardboots? I think you would freakin' kill it in hardboots.

Please create a "Delusional Soft boot Carving, ETC" catagory.

These 45* softboot guys all need to try riding unlocked, flexy, perfectly fitting hardboots on an AM board off piste. there is just no going back.

I can only assume the resistance to hardboots is low income or bad fitting uncomfortable boots.

[docrob]

Nils; why the focus on duck? Wouldn’t we need more positive angles to develop freecarve?<O:p</O:p

Softbootsailer/Bobdea…<O:p></O:p>

When starting the thread, I asked about 45+ angles because I was looking for the best softboot bindings for high angles....to really examine the cutting edge of the technology; how far the concept could go. I realise, as recommended by several on here, that in making the transition into carving, much lower angles will be more relevant..but I don’t want a binding that restricts to only that; but rather one to enable pushing the limits higher on the learning curve.<O:p></O:p>

I prefer to buy kit that doesn’t become redundant when skills grow.<O:p></O:p>

I have really found both of your ideas extremely helpful (the drama/outspeak has been an unexpected and additional perk!..love americans!). Bobdea has done a great job warning against retro’ as far as function is concerned (a sound principle), but it is interesting to see what went before (3 strap). ..and sometimes the older stuff disappears before anything better has been developed; due to marketing pressures. <O:p></O:p>

….An example of this resonating with windsurfers here, might be the absence of versatile fast rough water boards when “wide style” developed / took over.<O:p></O:p>

While the new stuff opened up learning for beginners, and increased manoeverability and versatility in poor waves / inconsistent winds, there was a decade before anything came close to matching the late 90’s/early 2000's high end narrow fast freeride boards like the Fanatic Bee or mistral Flow for speed and comfort in high winds and rough water. Those boards that do now challenge them are twice the price.<O:p></O:p>

I lost count of the number of sailors, unable to come anywhere close to my speed and control offshore, who came up to marvel at my 8 year old boards.<O:p></O:p>

<O:p></O:p>

Dano/ others, maybe I didn’t say when I started the thread; but I recognise that hardoots are the business…. spending my savings on Sidewinders and Deeluxe in the euro sales ..to experiment.<O:p></O:p>

…But that setup is maybe a tad ambitious after a weeks snowboarding. I want to plan out the tools to steepen the learning curve in the early stages, since I don’t get much time on snow.<O:p></O:p>

Learning carves with a softbinding and small angles on a freeride/ freecarve board will ease a rider in, but also, It’s good if kit doesn’t become redundant once a learning stage has passed. Hence the desire to explore options for progression, and versatility at a higher skill level. I.e. Once having dialled carving and able to lay EC carves on a specialised board (e.g. Swoard EC), It will be good to use the kit one progressed carving on to enjoy hybrid performance in soft boots.<O:p></O:p>

The pro euro carvers developed the dual specifically for this latter role.<O:p></O:p>

Also, yes, I am prejudiced against hardboots for other than high adrenalin EC. They are heavy, they are clutter, it’s a pain to get the liners in and out to dry, and they are a general inconvenience in my lifestyle.<O:p></O:p>

I seem to spend a long time changing footwear. Softboots make life easier. Get up 5 am. In softboots, take dogs over icerink yard (boots warm in minus 20 celcius) to check animals /chase off / shoot coyotes, indoors in softboots again to feed dogs and get kit/breakfast, softboots to feed and water stock, drive to hill, board, pick up groceries, round up escaped stock, take dogs out..back to trainers: easy! <O:p></O:p>

<O:p></O:p>

Boardski, do you still use AT boots for hardbooting?<O:p></O:p>

<O:p></O:p>

Zoltan, I’ll check those SPis.<O:p></O:p>

<O:p></O:p>