Trenches getting fat mid-turn---how to stop this?

[SWriverstone]

I've gotten out 6 times so far this season...and am plagued by a technique issue that's troubled me for a couple years now. I'm sure it's a fairly common issue, so I'd be grateful for some advice on how to overcome it.

In a nutshell, my trenches get fat and sloppy mid-turn (when viewed from the lift on the way back up).

If I never did anything else in carving, I'd love to get to a point where I keep my trenches razor-sharp and pencil thin 100% of the time---all the way around every turn.

The obvious symptom is the tail of my board slipping out. The cause (why it's slipping out) I'm not sure of, but am guessing is because I'm not keeping my edge evenly weighted throughout the turn (e.g. shifting weight too far forward, lightening the tail and letting it slip out).

This sound right?

I suppose what I'm talking about is the same thing as "skarving." And as an aside, I've heard people say that a certain amount of skidding in turns is okay---even desirable sometime.

Still, I know it's possible to keep a pencil-thin track at all times 'cause I see other people do it. And whether it's right or wrong...

THAT IS MY SOLE GOAL IN CARVING RIGHT NOW!

Not surprisingly, I can keep my trenches thinner on flatter slopes. It's when I get on the steeper blues that my tail starts skidding out.

I've definitely hit a wall with this and can't seem to get over it.

Scott

[b0ardski]

slarve happens

A goal of 100% tracking is pretty unrealistic even in hero snow. Too many variables, rider weight, board stiffness, speed, slope angle. Dialing in technique on a particular board can get you close. So aim high & keep shootin', you'll hit it some of the time.

I know, no help at all:freak3:

[GeoffV]

Scott,

Is it heel or toe side or both?

[SWriverstone]

It's mostly heelside...but sometime toeside. Definitely heelside.

Scott

[SWriverstone]

I know a lot of this technique stuff has been beaten to death around here...so I'm not trying to reincarnate a dead horse. :) But sometimes, someone makes a comment that explains something in a completely different way that makes for one of those illuminating moments.

The things I keep focusing on are...

1. Keeping the board's entire edge evenly weighted throughout the turn.

2. Trying not to force the beginning of the turn (e.g. thru torso rotation) but instead letting the board track naturally and come around on its own.

I do sometimes get a clean thin trench all the way...but just as often they get fat...usually not right in the middle of a turn (in spite of what I said above)...but often for the first third of a turn...then at about the midpoint the trench gets clean and thin again. (Which would suggest I need to work on #2 above.)

Scott

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I think a lot has to do with timing of the turn. Sometimes I'll get too close to the slope's edge before initiating the turn...which means I don't have plenty of time and space to complete a nice clean turn...but have to "bang it around" before I go hurtling into the woods, LOL.

At the same time, I've seen carvers better than me do really small, tight turns that are 100% clean and pencil-thin all the way.

[Pat Donnelly]

Posting a video would certainly help others to critique and may help you see what you are doing versus what you may think you are doing. Video analisys of my riding helped me a lot.

Equal edge weighting? Some have mentioned "feeding the dollar bill" or the "figure 8" progression weight transition (longitudinal) over the boards center from turn to turn.

Maybe this will help http://snowboarding.transworld.net/photos/backcountry/the-core-four/

[SWriverstone]

Thanks Pat...and yeah, I do need to get someone to shoot some video. (I'll work on that.)

Nice article, especially this passage:

When I want to engage or pressure my edge into the snow, I sink my body mass down by flexing at the ankles,knees, and hips progressively throughout the entire turn. I concentrate on increasing the edge pressure evenly between both feet so the entire edge of the board engages evenly. Fifty-fifty, baby! As I finish the turn, I gradually stand up by extending, or straightening, my ankles, knees, and hips. At the top of this extension, the board disengages from the snow and is unweighted, enabling me to effortlessly turn and maneuver it. Each turn involves one up-and-down cycle, regardless of its radius. If you’re making wide-open turns, lower your mass down onto the carving edge throughout the entire turn. Follow it with an extension as you end the turn, which leads to unweighting and finally the edge transfer that begins the sequence again.

I think I've intuitively been doing that, but need to do it more!

Scott

[Snowman]

Scott-try to initate your heelside turn buy leading with your head, upper body and hands. Drive the turn, look way into the turn with your eyes/head and follow with pronounced rotation of upper body. Usually when you start washing out your tuns it means your upper and lower body are out of sinc and you are loosing the ability to hold and pressure your board through out the turn. Lead with the upper body, commit and dive the turn as hard as you are able and continue looking as far into the turn as possible.

Think Snow!

[SWriverstone]

Usually when you start washing out your tuns it means your upper and lower body are out of sinc and you are loosing the ability to hold and pressure your board through out the turn.

This is an excellent point Snowman, thanks. I *am* actually good about leading with my head/upper body and looking through the turn, where I want to go. But one problem I recently discovered is that I was leading *so* well with my upper body that I was actually leaning too far forward (like getting my leading shoulder WAY over the nose of the board) and unweighting the rear of the board...which of course meant the rear of the board went "weeeee!" and skidded out.

What also seems to happen when I lead/rotate my head/upper torso in the direction of the turn is that my "coiled" body acts like a spring that tends to yank the board around too quickly.

So this is the thing i'm struggling with! :)

Scott

[Hans]

When you start to carve built up the carve and pressure slowly to the middle of the carve. What I mean is: we/I make almost the same mistake, we want to carve right away as we lose the control and focus in the middle of the turn, halfway.

I have leant this not by myself but have gotten some instructions from Sjoerd Remmelink a lot of years ago in a trainingscamp in Austria.

A time ago there was a carve vid of Thedo Remmelink here where he demonstrated this technique built-up.

Edit: here it is and fill in Remmelink, two vids: http://snowfun4you.blip.tv/rss

[lonbordin]

When you start to carve built up the carve and pressure slowly to the middle of the carve. What I mean is: we/I make almost the same mistake, we want to carve right away as we lose the control and focus in the middle of the turn, halfway.

I have leant this not by myself but have gotten some instructions from Sjoerd Remmelink a lot of years ago in a trainingscamp in Austria.

A time ago there was a carve vid of Thedo Remmelink here where he demonstrated this technique built-up.

Edit: here it is and fill in Remmelink, two vids: http://snowfun4you.blip.tv/rss

Thanks for the cool resource! Had not come across that one.

[Mr. T]

As you said, sounds like the tail is not getting enough pressure mid to end of the turn and the nose is plowing into the end of the turn. Perhaps you are just rotating too deeply and driving your hip late in the turn. Some drills you could try in order to even out pressure if not increase tail pressure are:

Try and hopping off of the tail, sort of an ollie, exiting the turn, start with skidded turns and try to progress to full carve.

Try to grap the toe edge of your board behind your rear foot with your rear hand on heel sides. Lead hand to heel edge in front of your lead heel on toe sides. Again start slow and skidded, maybe even visualize and practice stationary prior to try it moving. There should be lots of knee bend with this one, some waist but, again start slow and skidded.

Ride ride with arms crossed across chest. This will feel completely strange as it will really take you out of your comfort zone, take er' slow at first.

Practice short radius turns keeping upperbody static, use hips, knees and legs to initate and complete turns. Often helps to visually pick a downhill point to focus on. Progressively work towards fully carved turns.

There are a few more drills and weighting/unweighting positioning discussions on the board here. Dan Bogardus did one I think titled "Your butt and where it should be" that was pretty good and seems aplicable.

[Dave ESPI]

What board?

Do you experience this on all boards, or just one in particular, and have you played with stance or anything else?

I found with a few boards I needed to as Bobby bugs so aptly put it: "Find the sweet spot" and then ride accordingly. Every board is different. I was out with another rider this week, and was having the same issue. All we had to do was roll his rear binding back from toeside to 1 alignment hole and get his heel off-set a bit and he was ripping the heelsides perfectly after being frustrated in the same way you are.

Try getting weight back on the trailing leg at the apex of the turn, and unweight the nose a bit at the end just before initiating the next. It was really a critical part of a few boards I've been on and can usualy ride so nimble that I barely leave any mark in the snow in the transitions and go from edge to edge in an un-connected C to reverse C turn in the S down the hill.

HTH ?

[bobdea]

for me fat wobbly tenches happen either in super soft snow or if I am on a super soft board.

the above I think indicates the nose augering.

chances are the above is not the case though, at that point I'd probably go with snowman's advice.

like pat said. video video video.

[Hotbeans]

I'm going to post only because I deal with this every first few times of the season and have understood, to fix my lines, I need to remember to transition my weight towards my back leg while keeping angulation in place. "feeding the board" 'bout fixes it for me... although, at some point I realized that my rear binding angle was a bit low and the resulting boot toe/heel snow contact blew out the edge enough to cause the rear to skid .

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Edit: here it is and fill in Remmelink, two vids: http://snowfun4you.blip.tv/rss

Huh! In the Copper Race to the Cup V video, the last boarder (65) is a Canadian one I think (has the secret beaver tail lift anyway!)... but looks like their stance has the back foot at higher angles than the front! Do a lot of racers run this way? I used to run my angles like that way back in the late 90s, but it was beaten out of me by people who seemed like they'd know more than I.... :D

greg

[SWriverstone]

What board?

Do you experience this on all boards, or just one in particular, and have you played with stance or anything else?

I found with a few boards I needed to as Bobby bugs so aptly put it: "Find the sweet spot" and then ride accordingly.

It happens with both my Donek Freecarve (178) and my shorter Nidecker slalom board.

I think all you guys are right-on about "feeding the dollar bill." I need to work on this.

Scott