facialhairtuesday Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 So, I'm looking for a little explanation about why everyone seems to want super stiff boots. I rode in my hard boots (HSPs, no BTS) for the first time last weekend (after years of softboot carving), and I found them to be so stiff that I couldn't effectively turn the board...it was really just awkward and uncomfortable. I put the softer (orange) tongues in, and even resorted to leaving the boots in walk mode, otherwise I found them to be unbearably stiff. Granted, I was laying down only mediocre toe-side carves, and my heel side carves were non-existent, but it was my first day out in like 4 years....and when the boots were any stiffer (not in walk mode/stiff tongues/etc.) it just got worse. I know, stiff boots let you "transfer more power" etc. etc., but I don't seem to be able to translate power into an actual turn. I also expect someone to say that it was because I'm not used to higher binding angles, but I ran the same angles in my softboots that I have on my hardboots and never had trouble before. So, I guess my question is, does anyone have any suggestions/ideas about why the stiff boot was so uncomfortable/unhelpful to my turning, or is it just a matter of getting used to being in hardboots and eventually I'll be able to carve again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiveBomber Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 do you have a cant in the rear? and what angles? the lower angles you have the less stiff boot you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinecure Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 Post up your set up and stats. Height, weight, stance width, cant/lift, angles, etc. I'm 5'10", 185lbs, 30in inseam. I ride Head Stratos Pros (the black ones). I used to use the stiff tongues, but since I'm carving less, I've gone back to the softer ones. My stance width is ~19.5", 6 degrees of mostly heel lift in the rear and 3 degrees of mostly toe lift in the front (my cant plates are pretty much in line with my stance angles, although I'm considering adding a little inward cant to the rear). My angles vary according to which board I'm riding, but I typically have about 5 degrees of difference between them. On my Prior 4WD for instance I usually ride around 48-50 rear and 53-55 front. On narrower boards that goes up to 55-60. I don't have a BTS. But I do make sure that when I lock into ride mode that my forward foot is locked more upright than my rear boot. Keep asking questions here, see if there are any techno dweebs from BOL near you who will ride with you and help with set up. I think you'll find that you'll get it dialed in with some trial and error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facialhairtuesday Posted January 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 Probably should have included that. 5'9", 170 lbs, 29ish" inseam, 19" stance; ~57 front, 52 or so rear. ~3 deg toe lift in front, 3 deg heel lift + 4 deg inward cant in the rear (I'm using Cateks OS2s)...my knees are mildly ruined from competitive running so I needed the inward cant, otherwise my knees are just screaming and fighting the boots. And I'm riding on a Burton Coil 166 (I know, not the greatest, but I got it for SUPER cheap years ago, and I'm easing my way into this...new board next season) The stance is as comfortable as can be for me (its the first time in recent memory that after a full day on the hill, my quads and calves aren't in complete screaming pain), but I realize that I'm brand new to hard booting, so I'm planning on messing with my binding angles, etc. at least a little bit just to make sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonbordin Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 All of Sinecure's questions are relevant. I'm just making the transition myself and I found even though I had read everything I could about hardboot riding my muscle memory was all softboot information. Everything about beginning a turn requires different techniques in hardboots. Good gravy I remember attempting my first turns early this season... it was like I was fighting everything (the snow, the board, myself)! I felt so out of control! Last night while I was running my first gates ever in a hardboot setup I found when I started to flounder I would subconsciously attempt to revert to softboot techniques which did not work! Only by focusing on my limited hardboot techniques allowed me to get by. It takes a while to retrain the ole' brain (muscle memory). Keep at it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Buggs Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 Get rid of those boots and get Raichle/Deeluxe, they actually Flex. I hate stiff boots. 55% agree, the readers have spoken, http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=27487 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facialhairtuesday Posted January 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 Get rid of those boot and get Raichle/Deeluxe, they actually Flex.I hate stiff boots. I'll admit, with the soft tongues in and in walk mode, they're really not too bad. I actually think the Deeluxe boots fit my feet better, but 1) I don't have the $ to buy a different pair of boots, and 2) I had a HUGE hassle with the shop I got the boots at in the first place (wrong size, wouldn't exchange, etc. etc) so I'm sticking with these for the time being...I can't handle any more boot drama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiveBomber Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 are you locking the rear boot in the forward lean position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facialhairtuesday Posted January 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 are you locking the rear boot in the forward lean position? No, I left them both in walk mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave ESPI Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 No, I left them both in walk mode. With most HBs thats akin to crossing the streams with a protion pack when busting ghost..... Just sayin' be carefull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 I my raichle 123-4, softest hard shell snowboard boots ever made, great for all mt offpiste powder & chop and still carves grom trippin' trenches on the way back to the lift with all day comfort (molded liners). You might consider modding the lower shell cuff wings, (there's a couple old threads on doing this your self) to allow more & softer flex to the upper cuff on the heads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.T. Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 Get rid of those boots and get Raichle/Deeluxe, they actually Flex. Or you could learn to drive your knees, or incorporate a BTS kit, or do the lower shell mod described here. :)55% agree, the readers have spoken, http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=27487 You asked "What boot do you ride?", not what boot and why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Buggs Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 So why do they ride Raichle:confused: Perhaps its because they actually WORK properly without having to cut them to shreds. Sure if you take a square peg and grind it down it eventually will fit in the round hole. I opt for buying the round one in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 Are two of the buckles colliding together and preventing the boot from flexing at the joint? I had that problem with the Heads. Also, I wish I had seen the info in DT's thread before I gave up on Heads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShortcutToMoncton Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 You have stiff bindings. The general trend for pro riders is towards stiffer boots with flexy bindings (with a plate of course). You're riding OS2s – one of the stiffer bindings available. With stiff boots you're essentially on a rigid system.... greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surf Quebec Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 facialhairtuesday, I'm using Head boots because they fit my foot better. I've done the mods (removing the wings) and add the BTS, it gives a bit more flex. As mentionned by Mike T , you'll have more gain in the flex if you have a bigger boot size. I have a HSP mondo 25.5 and the 2 buckles from the middle touches themselves, I'm sure this is preventing to have more flex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facialhairtuesday Posted January 8, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 I guess I should clarify...the problem is not that I can't get enough flex out of the boots....when I leave them in walk mode and have the soft tongues in, they're fine...my original question was based on my confusion of WHY people want stiff boots, as I was unable to effectively control the board when my boots were in "stiff mode" Its definitely possible, though, that I'm using "softboot" technique and not hardboot technique, just like lonbordin said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pebu Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 Personally I found soft and hardboot techniques to be very similar. I had almost no trouble making the transition, and I started out with ski boots on a rossi xvas (rat-traps DID make it more flexy). Perhaps you're trying to use your ankles to make changes instead of using your knees and hips. I'd open up the tech archives and go over "the norm" real quick again. When you do get it dialed in you're gonna be STOKED. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 my original question was based on my confusion of WHY people want stiff bootsIn my opinion: strong riders who put a lot of power to the edge prefer a stiffer boot. They can overpower a softer boot and end up flexing it more than they would like. If you're just learning you probably want a softer setup because you won't be able to put that kind of power into it, so all that happens is your leg is immobilized. You always need some movement, just stronger riders can move a stiffer boot.The other situation where a softer boot is often preferred is if you are going for more of an all-mountain application. Hard to put the power down in soft snow, but you still want the boot to allow you to use your ankles. As for why Raichles are the most popular - I just put that down to availability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 FHT, From the leverage standpoint, a stiffer boot will be more consistent over a greater range of temperatures, which means that binding and boot 'adjustments' effective on hard snow in December will be valid when you are riding rotten ice late in March. A stiffer boot will also provide more days of use before breaking down. Assuming the plastic formulation is not 'dead', a stiffer boot will provide a better feel for the snow than a softer boot. Much of this feel can be negated, however, with thermofit liners and rubber sole blocks. (The lack of 'snow feel' is one reason why the original Derbyflex was not widely adopted for use by slalom skiers. If you want or need quick and accurate feet, you need a tight feedback loop). I can only speak for myself, but I want to know where my feet are without thinking or looking, and I want the support to remain where I left it. A stiff cuff in the right place at the right time can provide (to the CNS) a wealth of information regarding board behavior and surface contour. Some may want to 'transfer more power' while others seek to 'contain more power'. To (re)state the obvious: If you find that you ride much better with your boots 'loose', you may be at geometric/functional odds with your gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.T. Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 So why do they ride Raichle:confused: Perhaps its because they actually WORK properly without having to cut them to shreds. Sure if you take a square peg and grind it down it eventually will fit in the round hole. I opt for buying the round one in the first place. maybe they purchase their gear from yyzcanuck, who only sells Deeluxe... maybe they purchased Deeluxe because they were on sale... maybe they have a narrow foot, which is better suited to the Deeluxe shell... maybe they bought their boots used, and considering that Raichle/Deeluxe boots saturated the market prior to Head coming to the scene in 2005(?), you are more likely to find used Raichle/Deeluxe boots... maybe they purchased Deeluxe boots without ever having tried on, let alone ridden another manufacturer's boot... :) The last time I did a shell fit on Deeluxe boots, my foot spanned the width of the shell with no side-to-side movement, now add a liner and I would be in agony in a matter of seconds. I wear HSP's because they are the widest last that I have found and I still need to have them stretched. That said, I have to be cautious that I don't drive my back knee into the snow on every toeside turn that I make. Part of it is I drive my knees hard and flex the boots like crazy, the other part is I tip the board high on edge, which brings my knees closer to the snow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 So, I'm looking for a little explanation about why everyone seems to want super stiff boots. I rode in my hard boots (HSPs, no BTS) for the first time last weekend (after years of softboot carving), and I found them to be so stiff that I couldn't effectively turn the board...it was really just awkward and uncomfortable. I put the softer (orange) tongues in, and even resorted to leaving the boots in walk mode, otherwise I found them to be unbearably stiff. Granted, I was laying down only mediocre toe-side carves, and my heel side carves were non-existent, but it was my first day out in like 4 years....and when the boots were any stiffer (not in walk mode/stiff tongues/etc.) it just got worse.I know, stiff boots let you "transfer more power" etc. etc., but I don't seem to be able to translate power into an actual turn. I also expect someone to say that it was because I'm not used to higher binding angles, but I ran the same angles in my softboots that I have on my hardboots and never had trouble before. So, I guess my question is, does anyone have any suggestions/ideas about why the stiff boot was so uncomfortable/unhelpful to my turning, or is it just a matter of getting used to being in hardboots and eventually I'll be able to carve again? head stratos pros are really soft, softer than my last pair of deeluxe/raichle boots and WAY softer than my UPZs. add a BTS and thermoflex to that and you have a really nice soft hard boot that has a amazing range of motion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrapster Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 I ride stiffer boots (or, to be more precise, softer hardboots in a locked position) because my body doesn't like anything else. I wish I had more latitude, and I may as my technique slowly improves. Then again, I did 15 years in two-strap binding softy setups when my three-strap Burton Torques finally died in the 1990's, and I never took to them either. It was like someone gave me a new life with bionic feet when I returned to HB's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chucklebeast Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 I have to agree with beckman, I love my hardshells(deelux 700s) because they translate every move directly to the snow. I also ride with Burton race plates because anything up off of the board feels wrong to me(I grew up surfing on the North Shore) and adds time to response and snow feel. Also Neil makes tons of sense about overloading your boots, with my skinny surfer legs I've had to tighten my BTS blues a couple times a year as my legs get stronger and deliver much more power at the end of the year. Strangely it hasn't been necessary to loosen them this season(I went to Indonesia this summer, so I'm in shape for once, LOL!), and after 6 days of carving, I'm ready to buy the stiffer springs... I ride toes to the nose and drive with my knees and hips and only rotate my upper body when surfing around in the flats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevo Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 you will have to gain 30#s and change your name to facialhairsaturdaysunday BUT hook up with gleb thru this site and trip to loon some w/e....he is a good kid and good rider and maybe we can help. your location is boston but home mountain is big sky anyway gleb is in boston going to school...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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