Sidewinder Unveiled

[The Blitz]

Interesting: Jacques (Rilliet) said that for at least a decade, and he was called either a fool, a suicidal man, or wrong...( forum archives...)

Hi Nils !

nice to read all this reviews about lateral flex...

See you next decade when almost freecarver will using wide board :lol:

Moi ce que je voudrais, c'est le logo au laser sur tes embases

[fin]

Leeho730: you get full sets (8) of each of the soft (yellow) and medium (blue) E-Pads. Enough to set-up both bindings fully for soft or medium. Right now no option to buy extra as we need all the ones we have to sell the bindings. But most likely have spares down the road. Photo here of what comes with the binding:

http://www.bomberonline.com/store/bindings/td3_SW.cfm

Mixing E-Pads: you could absolutely do this. Funny enough I currently have no reports of the racers on the first batch trying this. But it would be a neat experiment to try. One racer mentioned that he would probably go medium E-Pads towards the tail on both bindings and soft towards the nose. His logic was he wanted the ability to roll both feet towards the nose to start a turn but wanted resistance when it came to rolling back on the tail. Honestly, you could mix them up to how ever you want.

I have put a soft on one side of the pivot and a medium on the other. The pre-load is so small it did not “cant” the top sole block part over towards the soft E-Pad. Also, I would not really see an issue with putting a soft and medium on the same side. Example from binding, outside pads, toe is soft, heel is medium. It may induce a “twist” in the system but I think the boots are stiff enough to overcome this.

As promised here is a blow-up picture of all the components of the TD3 SideWinder. Side note: DO NOT TRY TO DISASSEMBLE THE SOLE BLOCKS! The pin you see as the pivot is tightly pressed in to give the best tolerance we could achieve. It is a solid pin so the fit is very tight. If you try to remove it without the proper tools, you could easily damage the whole unit. Then I will post your name up here and we’ll all taunt you. Good news is that you do not need to take it apart. To replace the E-Pads you just leave the entire assembly together and just “squeeze” one side to remove the other E-Pad on the opposite side. More to come on that. And the bearings will last longer than you.

[Hans]

This SW is more beautiful than Mona Lisa. Nice work and thinking, Fin.

[fin]

And if you look closely, you will notice we used a Clothoid based shape for the upper block. Those in the know will understand what this is for and its obvious benefits.

Also, the heel bail is bent using a parabola shape to increase tangential forces at there origin. I won't go into the math here but the benefits are unmeasurable.

And finally I would like to take note, we have been using "metal" construction in all our products for close to 20 years now. All board manufactures should thank us and agree to the royalties my attorney will be "requesting" in the weeks to come.

And the Internet was my idea......

[yyzcanuck]

Windows 7 was MY idea!

[Jack M]

And if you look closely, you will notice we used a Clothoid based shape for the upper block.

yeah but it isn't decambered. fail. ;)

I am going to put soft e-pads on the insides and medium on the outsides, so that I can jam my knees together to bend my board into a smooth, tighter arc. I only let Burton say Rider Responsive Flex was Craig Kelly's idea because I am laid back like that.

JUST KIDDING!! ;-)

[StevieG]

agree, would be one killer product with the combo of SI and the SideWinder. Reason you do not see this right now is it will be a much more challenging task to bend a steel receiver that will work with the SW mechanism. And this would also involve some expensive tooling that we just cannot do right at this time. So for now, it is the standard version only. An SI one might be next but certainly will be a while.

I understand not wanting to go backwards to aluminum heel receivers. And with the new hardened steel heel receiver, I can see how it would be difficult to bend the receiver to have the SW pivot. But couldn't you machine an aluminum base for the heel receiver (with SW pivot), which accepts 2 bolt-on steel pieces for the actual heel receiver? I'm sure this approach would present it's own challenges, but may be simpler overall.

I'm picturing an aluminum base similar to the TD1/TD2 stepin heel receiver (including the vertical flanges, but shortened), except with a SW pivot on the bottom, and made 1 cm wider to accept two 0.5 cm thick steel intec receiver plates that bolt to the insides of the shortened vertical aluminum flanges. So the intec heel pins would slide on and engage with a steel surface, but the bulk of the heel receiver would be aluminum to ease manufacturing of the SW mechanism.

Seems you could start with the current non-stepin SW heel block design and just widen it and add vertical aluminum flanges to accept the bolt-on steel receivers.

Just thinking out loud here. But really want a step-in version. Can it be ready next week? ;)

[skategoat]

Don't be too quick to take credit here gents. I clearly recall certain people here being adamant in previous threads about any flex or play being the domain of boot engineering and not binding. I recall certain someones being very firm in their position that bindings should be rigid and introducing flex would be dangerous and a dumb idea

I have a long memory and I'm just saying.

[Jack M]

Don't be too quick to take credit here gents.

I was being tongue-in-cheek ;)

I recall certain someones being very firm in their position that bindings should be rigid and introducing flex would be dangerous and a dumb idea

Don't think I ever said dumb, but back then it was certainly dangerous, given all the binding failures over the years which created the very market for Bomber and Catek in the first place. Putting a stiff boot on top of Burtons wasn't as effective as putting a more forgiving boot on top of stiffer bindings, imo. Give me engineered flex over slop every time. My Sidewinders are on the brown truck now. We shall see!

[skategoat]

Jack, the best bit of business advice I ever got was to avoid non-compromise positions on certain topics. You never know when you need wiggle room (pun intended).

All I know is, I have very soft Raichle boots, the softest BTS springs set at the least tension and I still want more flex. The Sidewinder is definitely made for me but I have to sell some more blood.

[Jack M]

lol, thanks for the tip!

[Buell]

Give me engineered flex over slop every time.

I am very excited to try the Sidewinder. Mine are also on the way. The amount of thought and engineering that goes into it far exceeds other bindings on the market and I wish Fin the best because it is pretty clear he has worked the hardest and with tremendous focus.

Jack, you may not like the ride of the Burtons (and possibly the F2s, though I assume you have not tried them yet), but the idea that the flex built into the Burton (Ibex) and F2 plate bindings is not engineered, but is simply an accident, is just wrong.

Lots of riders and most racers prefer those bindings to the Cateks and the rigid TDs because of that flex. It seems like they are onto something that the market place desires. I don't think those riders would call it "slop." For them, the flex in their bindings really helps their riding. I tend to think that the top racers are onto something.

If the Sidewinder is a better product, it will now become the choice of most of the alpine racers and those who like flex in their binding. Sounds promising so far.

Buell

[Hans]

Are you gonna give up your beautiful TD3 Intec setup you bought last year for these TD3 SW?

[carvedog]

My two cents on TD3 Sidewinders...

I got to ride the Sidewinders last spring and it took all of two turns to be completely stoked......

Thanks for the review. I can't wait to try some.

[Jack M]

Are you gonna give up your beautiful TD3 Intec setup you bought last year for these TD3 SW?

We'll see after I try them!

[leeho730]

Thanks fin!

Good news is that you do not need to take it apart. To replace the E-Pads you just leave the entire assembly together and just “squeeze” one side to remove the other E-Pad on the opposite side. More to come on that.

I have put a soft on one side of the pivot and a medium on the other. The pre-load is so small it did not “cant” the top sole block part over towards the soft E-Pad.

That was one thing I was worried about it, too :)

And the bearings will last longer than you.

Exactly what I'd love to hear! :D

[fin]

Skategoat: Hear you on wanting more flex in your system. The balance game is getting flex where you want it and rigidity where you want it. If all flex was king we would all be on softboots with no highbacks. If rigidity was kind we would all be on my old TD1 with Technica TNT race boots :p We are all still striving for that balance.

However, I do stand by my statement of many years now, that flex should not come from the boot and binding engagement. When I see people run there bindings loose or with super low tension, I just cringe. That is an improper way to get the result you want. I would never loosen the wheel on my mountain bike to get more "give" in the system. It needs to be engineered in, i.e. a suspension system. That is why the interface between the TD3 SW and the boot is still 100% locked in, no movement there.

Buell: Right on, thanks for the good words and order. I believe you will like what you see and feel. But I do think we have two very different conversations here

1. is flex/movement in the system desired?
   
2. if it is, how it is it done and is it done properly?
   

The first one is an absolute 100% personal opinion. There is no right or wrong and there never will be. We could debate this till the cows come home and there is no point. I have my opinion, Jack has his opinion, you have yours, etc. I would rather ride than debate that hot button!

However, I stand by my opinion on the second one that the current bindings used by quite a few racers where not designed to be flexy as they are more a product of an accountant standing behind an engineer. They where probably a combination of "strong enough for most" and cheap enough to make a profit on. And this is shown is these bindings have the same part fail over and over and over again. If there goal was to engineer a flexy binding that stayed together they would not do it the way the currently are. Having bails so thin they flex and work harden, then break like cycle bending a paper-clip is not a design feature, it's a cost cut.

There is no denying racers like to have more lateral flex in their bindings. I cannot argue they want that. I might as well tell them what movies they should like And in the past they could only get this with the bindings they currently use. The had no choice. But the by-product of this was reliability because I believe they where never meant to see the forces these guys/gals are putting on them with these huge and heavy modern decks combined with even faster race times. These failures seem to have double recently with the current use of sub-plate systems that add both weight and lever forces.

For years we used to sell one of the brands of binding some of the racers use. When all the teams came to town in the fall for training and camps we used to have to make sure we had barrels of certain parts for these bindings. At one point I thought of putting up a dispenser in the main lobby like those ones in grocery stores that dispense coffee or cereal. These guys could just grab a bag, fill it up, and pay by the pound. These binding where maybe 10% of our binding sales, but 95% of our binding warranties. It took being sued by a certain binding company to realize, they where not here to make safe bindings, just make money off tooling they have had for years.

I would rather now sell a binding that gives the performance rider/racers want but does not hurt them in the process.

[RCrobar]

Hello Everyone

I too really believe that the SideWinder is a major break through for the alpine enthusiasts!

Leeho730 Wrote - Fortunately I've milled the cant disk of TD2 by 3mm... and if I understand correctly, the TD2 e-rings are about 4.5mm thinner than td3 rings. Now I want to buy one and fit it into my super-low TD2 disks!

I too have milled my TD2 cant disk as low as possible and want to use the a Sidewinder on the milled disks.

Skategoat Wrote - I figured you'd be all over this one. And at $449.00, you didn't need that second kidney anyways.

Hehe, great to hear from you. I am hoping that our rising Canadian buck and a retro kit will get me in the game.

Fin Wrote - And will not fit on a TD2 Base Plate as they do not have the clearance grooves machined in them.

I have access to a CNC machine and am a bit of a 'Rob Villa.' Do you see any problem with me milling clearance grooves in my TD2 cant disk. I realize the warranty is void, but hypothetically speaking, could this work?

Fin Wrote - To replace the E-Pads you just leave the entire assembly together and just squeeze one side to remove the other E-Pad on the opposite side. More to come on that. And the bearings will last longer than you.

Excellent and really cool! It seems like it will be quite easy to mix, match and experiment with the E-Pads. I was sure the pin would have to be punched out; no I will not do this!

Back Country Split Board Application?

It seems to me that this also has the potential to be a huge bonus for back country split board users! Has the SideWinder been tested on a Voile plate yet? Can anyone comment on this? Fin?

Thanks in advance

Rob

[boyracer]

Back Country Split Board Application?

It seems to me that this also has the potential to be a huge bonus for back country split board users! Has the SideWinder been tested on a Voile plate yet? Can anyone comment on this? Fin?

Rob

I would like to know this too!

[Buell]

Hello Everyone

Back Country Split Board Application?

It seems to me that this also has the potential to be a huge bonus for back country split board users! Has the SideWinder been tested on a Voile plate yet? Can anyone comment on this? Fin?

I will speak for many AT splitboard riders and say that this would be awesome!!!!

Maybe something on a baseplate made by Will at Spark due to the much improved board, binding, puck connection.

[IMTom]

On Order

1.5 sets

for my 192 Donek Metal AX

23.5W 11-16 VSCR

and my Carbon}Super Wood Coiler 184 GS PRace 18cm waist 13.5M SCR

Waiting until next week

TP

[BadBrad]

I, too, like a generally soft and flexy setup, so these SW bindings might work well for me. I have used Burton race plates since they first came out, and I still use them on my Prior 4WD. I like the flex, low profile, and light weight. In all these years I have never had them fail, but I'm not a big strong rider and I don't ride that many days a year.

I also have a set of TD2 SI's. I use them with the TD3 e-rings to get a little more flex, but I still find them a little too stiff for my liking. I have gotten used to them and they work fine, but I do find that I tend to loosen my boots because the slop between my foot and boot gives me that extra flex that I like. However, that slop is obviously not as good as properly engineered flex. The only advantage for me over the race plates is the greater cant/lift adjustability.

Lateral flex with no fore/aft flex does make a lot of sense, and the e-rings can still provide some dampening in the fore/aft direction as well. These SW bindings sound like they'd work great for me. The main disadvantages I see are the height and the weight. I prefer a low binding height, and I'd love to keep the weight as low as the race plates.

Anyway, I do plan to buy as set of the SW's at some point, but they aren't in the budget right now.

[Surf Quebec]

Badbrad

You said that you're using TD3 e-rings with TD2, the only other things you had to change was using 20mm M6 screw instead of the 16mm ones, am I right ?

Any problem with that setup ? (as it is mentionned on BOL that TD3 e-rings are for TD3 only)

[Jack M]

Badbrad

You said that you're using TD3 e-rings with TD2, the only other things you had to change was using 20mm M6 screw instead of the 16mm ones, am I right ?

Any problem with that setup ? (as it is mentionned on BOL that TD3 e-rings are for TD3 only)

You would also need the TD3 center disk. Physically you *could* do what you're suggesting, but that would probably be a recipe for insert pull out.

The right thing to do if you have TD2s and you want the TD3 suspension but you don't care about the other features is to get a TD3 second board kit.

http://www.bomberonline.com/store/bindings/TD3_2nd_board_kit.cfm

[Arclite]

As promised here is a blow-up picture of all the components of the TD3 SideWinder. Side note: DO NOT TRY TO DISASSEMBLE THE SOLE BLOCKS! The pin you see as the pivot is tightly pressed in to give the best tolerance we could achieve. It is a solid pin so the fit is very tight. If you try to remove it without the proper tools, you could easily damage the whole unit. Then I will post your name up here and we’ll all taunt you. Good news is that you do not need to take it apart. To replace the E-Pads you just leave the entire assembly together and just “squeeze” one side to remove the other E-Pad on the opposite side. More to come on that. And the bearings will last longer than you.

What about when you're flexing the binding... lets say you have more pressure on the left of the heel/toe pads.

what's stopping the pad on the right from just falling/sliding out?